Found Deceased Australia - Gary Tweddle, 23, Blue Mountains NSW, 16 July 2013 - #3

[Lexis]

Hi there newcomer!!

It is 10. 14pm Australian time, September 19th, 7 degrees C and clear in Leura, 100% full moon and , having just walked around outside I must say that it is easy to walk around in the moon's bright light and I can see way ahead of me into the bush, very illuminated landscape.

Figtree, & anyone else, if you are in a position to note it too, do you think that on July 16th the landscape was as illuminated as it is tonight?

 

[Xantara]

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?n=240

The data at the above link I gather tells you what phase the moon was in on certain dates and times.

 

[H A L 9 0 0 0]

Hi there newcomer!!

It is 10. 14pm Australian time, September 19th, 7 degrees C and clear in Leura, 100% full moon and , having just walked around outside I must say that it is easy to walk around in the moon's bright light and I can see way ahead of me into the bush, very illuminated landscape.

Figtree, & anyone else, if you are in a position to note it too, do you think that on July 16th the landscape was as illuminated as it is tonight?

Hey Lexis, it was only a partial moon on July 16. Full moon was nearly a week later. I'm not in NSW, but my guess would be somewhere between a quarter to a third of the light you're seeing tonight.

 

[SouthAussie]

Thanks Xantara ... full moon tonight ... no wonder the day has been so nutty! :hills:

And a quarter moon on the night Gary went missing.

 

[H A L 9 0 0 0]

On the "Have you seen Gary Tweddle?" page, I noticed there's a comment from September 12 questioning the physical possibility of falling/jumping and landing in the exact location where Gary's body was recovered.

 

[SouthAussie]

Time for a brief synopsis?


We don’t know why Gary ran from the Fairmont at midnight in his shirtsleeves on a cold winter's night.

We don’t know what was making him “quiet” and “wobbly” at dinner.

We don’t know very much of what Gary was saying on the phone during those 17mins.

We don’t know if Gary made other calls/texts after midnight that night.

We don’t know how those bins on Watkins Road became overturned (or if it is even significant).

We don’t know how Gary ended up down Sublime Point Road.

We do know the dogs didn’t track him there (why not?) - otherwise he would have been found sooner.

We don’t know how Gary ended up on his back on a ledge 30m down a steeply-sloped cliff (not a sheer drop) filled with trees and bushes, and with a thick scrub approach.

We do know that anyone who has visited the area struggles with how Gary could possibly have ended up there (if he jumped, slipped, or fell).

We do know that no-one has been able to come up with any reasonable, believable theory to-date.


Is that about it? :sigh:

 

[bearbear]

we probably wont hear any more about gary now until his inquest.
i wonder if coronial investigators will be up at the site between now and november measuring the distance and angle of the fall etc?
<modsnip>

 

[H A L 9 0 0 0]

In my ignorance I'm assuming inquests happen when the facts of a case are not completely straight forward and investigators have exhausted current lines of inquiry.

A coroner may recommend further investigation if there are inconsistencies where things don't entirely add up (and if the murky information that has been released publically in this case is anything to go by, it won't come as a huge surprise if the investigation remains open following the inquest IMO).

For one thing, if witnesses are to claim he left the hotel to 'source drugs', I imagine it would be important at the inquest establish who he intended to arrange the transaction with, or determine whether the allegations have any basis in truth at all. If he did meet with others after leaving the hotel it clearly opens up a number of possibilities. And if the buying drugs allegation isn't conclusive, it could also bring into question those who have made the allegations.

Will have to tune back in late November. Maybe by then there might be a few concrete answers.

 

[Xantara]

IMO Gary could not have been forging through that bush close to the cliff line with any great speed, given how dense the scrub is and how narrow the paths. So, if he fell/slipped, it could not have been at any great velocity. Given that what was below is a heavily wooded slope and not a sheer drop, can anyone envisage how Gary would not have been caught in all the trees and bushes along that (albeit steep) slope??

 

[Lexis]

In my ignorance I'm assuming inquests happen when the facts of a case are not completely straight forward and investigators have exhausted current lines of inquiry.

A coroner may recommend further investigation if there are inconsistencies where things don't entirely add up (and if the murky information that has been released publically in this case is anything to go by, it won't come as a huge surprise if the investigation remains open following the inquest IMO).

For one thing, if witnesses are to claim he left the hotel to 'source drugs', I imagine it would be important at the inquest establish who he intended to arrange the transaction with, or determine whether the allegations have any basis in truth at all. If he did meet with others after leaving the hotel it clearly opens up a number of possibilities. And if the buying drugs allegation isn't conclusive, it could also bring into question those who have made the allegations.

Will have to tune back in late November. Maybe by then there might be a few concrete answers.

here's something about when an inquest can be held.

http://www.armstronglegal.com.au/corporate-crime/coronial-inquests/when-can-an-inquest-be-held

and

"Can I ask for an inquest to be held?
A relative (or person whom the Coroner
determines has a sufficient interest) can
request that an inquest be held. The written
request must clearly state the reasons for
the request. The Coroner will consider those
reasons when deciding whether or not to hold
an inquest."http://www.coroners.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/agdbasev7wr/_assets/coroners/m401601l1/coroners%20ct%20brochure_guide%20to%20services.pdf

"What is an inquest?
An inquest is a court hearing where a Coroner
considers information to help determine the
manner and cause of death. At this hearing,
the Coroner may call witnesses to give
evidence about their knowledge of the death.
Any person who, in the opinion of the Coroner,
has a sufficient interest in the inquest, may
apply in writing for permission to appear (or
to be legally represented) at the inquest. This
person may ask relevant questions of any
witnesses.
Inquests are generally open to public viewing,
except for certain situations when the Coroner
can exclude individuals or the public from
attending. " ibid.

 

[H A L 9 0 0 0]

IMO Gary could not have been forging through that bush close to the cliff line with any great speed, given how dense the scrub is and how narrow the paths. So, if he fell/slipped, it could not have been at any great velocity. Given that what was below is a heavily wooded slope and not a sheer drop, can anyone envisage how Gary would not have been caught in all the trees and bushes along that (albeit steep) slope??

Hey Xantara, being local I'm sure you have a much better idea about the gradient of the slope, but there was that one photo of the recovery op which made the site look pretty horribly sheer (a side view showing police climbers dangling with harnesses/ropes etc). The frontal view made the vegetation appear much more dense compared to the side view where it seemed to me sparsely vegetated.

To get down to the section where it becomes sheer, do any local folk have an idea how far you actually need to stray from the track and progress down sloping ground before it becomes an absolutely sheer drop off?

Another thought was that Gary may not have left the track directly above where he was found- that he may have cut off the track some distance away and gradually descended into the sheer, rocky section from either side of where he was located (if that's even possible). May have even taken an accidental fall earlier in a place he couldn't climb back up, being forced to try to work his way along and climb out another way (possibly injured as well).

I've been thinking of it as one large fall, but maybe there were a series of smaller falls before he became too injured/exhausted/hypothermic.

Be great if there were a few abseiller websleuthers out there who could go take a look on a rope.

 

[FigTree]

Figtree, your experience would carry more weight than the theorizing of scientific moon pundits as far as I'm concerned .... because you were, in practice, experiencing how it was to function outside under the moon and close-ish to GT in time and space.

I wonder though, whether you were outside at the same time as GT? Did clouds set in across the moon on the 16th?

(The Kings Tableland Observatory in Wentworth Falls is great. Is it still open to the public? The guy who was running it died about 4-5 years ago. I presume it changed hands. It had fabulously clear projected images from the telescope, dotted around the white walls of a room.)

Most of the night driving footage and photos I did were taken after midnight, but not on the 16th.

 

[SouthAussie]

Hey Xantara, being local I'm sure you have a much better idea about the gradient of the slope, but there was that one photo of the recovery op which made the site look pretty horribly sheer (a side view showing police climbers dangling with harnesses/ropes etc). The frontal view made the vegetation appear much more dense compared to the side view where it seemed to me sparsely vegetated.

To get down to the section where it becomes sheer, do any local folk have an idea how far you actually need to stray from the track and progress down sloping ground before it becomes an absolutely sheer drop off?

Another thought was that Gary may not have left the track directly above where he was found- that he may have cut off the track some distance away and gradually descended into the sheer, rocky section from either side of where he was located (if that's even possible). May have even taken an accidental fall earlier in a place he couldn't climb back up, being forced to try to work his way along and climb out another way (possibly injured as well).

I've been thinking of it as one large fall, but maybe there were a series of smaller falls before he became too injured/exhausted/hypothermic.

Be great if there were a few abseiller websleuthers out there who could go take a look on a rope.

I personally think that rescuers abseiling down the sheerer cliff face adjacent to the wooded slope was the easiest, and perhaps safest, way to reach where Gary was found - same with the helicopter. Easier to get him away from being tangled in the trees that way.

MSM photos and Google Earth show Gary's location as very wooded and sloped (however, I am obviously not a local, and they would know best )

 

[Derryn Hunch]

It looked to me as if Gary was found on a shelf that was about 20m below where it became sheer cliff? Like he feel of a 15/20m sheer cliff and bust happened to land on one of the only shelves in the area... Look at the pics of the cliff face from the opposite side more carefully against the pics from the recovery op. I've posted them in this thread on here previously. (using my phone to type so linking is a bit of a pain right now)

 

[FigTree]

There is also not much footage but at the beginning of the 7 news clip you can get a better idea of where they were trying to retrieve Gary from - though its hard to say if he was moving across the landscape as this report says he was wedged in a crevice on the tree - that indicates to me a vertical drop. But there is a definite shelf above the sheer sandstone wall face.

7 News Footage

.

 

[Xantara]

Did any locals witness the recovery operation in progress from across the valley - is it Honeymoon Lookout?

 

[FigTree]

Did any locals witness the recovery operation in progress from across the valley - is it Honeymoon Lookout?

I was at Sublime Point where the Police had blocked off the road (with camera) - and then I went to film from Olympian Parade in Leura across over to the rescue area at Sublime Point. I did get footage of the helicopter taking off to take Gary to Leura Oval. I have not published that footage online as yet, though there are some photos from thread 2 - will see if I can locate them.

Another poster was at Honeymoon Lookout and took some photos of the recovery operation - they're on thread 2 as well.

Pic) Olympian Pde Lookout - yellow triangle

 

[FigTree]

There is an article I found which mentions Gary (before he was found), and it is from the perspective of Police and Rescuers It mentions many search cases of people who have been lost in the Australian Bush. It also tells Prahbhdeep Srawns story -
Well worth the read...

How does a bushwalker go missing, never to be found? Read the entire article....

So how is it that people can so frequently vanish? Sergeant James Bate is a senior member of Victoria Police's Search and Rescue Squad, whose experience dates back to the Hildebrand case. A key problem, he says, is figuring out how much search area to cover. "The best-case scenario is they'll leave their intentions with someone and we'll know exactly what track they were walking or where exactly they were intending to go in the bush." The biggest challenge is conducting what Bate refers to as "rest of the world" searches.
-----

Cunningham agrees. "There are just so many areas you can miss, and unfortunately bodies give no feedback. A lot of the time it's impossible to say, hand on heart, that you've searched every square inch, because you just can't." Searchers, though, still face failure-related anxieties. "We dread turning on the news and hearing that the person has been found in an area we've already searched. It's our worst nightmare."

.

 

[SouthAussie]

There is also not much footage but at the beginning of the 7 news clip you can get a better idea of where they were trying to retrieve Gary from - though its hard to say if he was moving across the landscape as this report says he was wedged in a crevice on the tree - that indicates to me a vertical drop. But there is a definite shelf above the sheer sandstone wall face.

7 News Footage

.

Yeah &#8211; nah &#8211; I don&#8217;t know. I&#8217;ve looked and looked and looked at this video from the 27sec mark to the 35sec mark.

I do see a cliff edge jutting above Gary at the 34sec mark, which wasn&#8217;t apparent in other photos, but I also see trees/bushes/scrub on that jutting cliff. Wish we could see more of the terrain higher up. The angles of all the different footage from all the different news stations makes nothing look quite the same.

People who have visited the area have commented that they can&#8217;t see how he got there. I&#8217;d like to see what they saw.

Sure you can&#8217;t rent a helicopter, FigTree, and do a flyover for us? Maybe get the LAC to put a big X on the spot first? :biggrin:

 

[Xantara]

Yeah – nah – I don’t know. I’ve looked and looked and looked at this video from the 27sec mark to the 35sec mark.

I do see a cliff edge jutting above Gary at the 34sec mark, which wasn’t apparent in other photos, but I also see trees/bushes/scrub on that jutting cliff. Wish we could see more of the terrain higher up. The angles of all the different footage from all the different news stations makes nothing look quite the same.

People who have visited the area have commented that they can’t see how he got there. I’d like to see what they saw.

Sure you can’t rent a helicopter, FigTree, and do a flyover for us? Maybe get the LAC to put a big X on the spot first? :biggrin:

Yes, that's definitely something that has been missing in all the reports of the recovery operation. A picture of the immediate environment, and going back to the top of the cliff, with a marker on the spot where Gary was found. To give some perspective. With all the news helicopters hovering around that day, I'm amazed that that has not been forthcoming. I still find it very hard to picture where Gary was found in relation to the 'top of the cliff' or whatever track he was walking on.