Australia Australia - Jenny Cook, 29, Townsville, Qld, 19 Jan 2009

[BJsleuth]

Couple things maybe we can sleuth..



I was doing some research on self-inflicted stab wounds. But at this point, I want to gather basic info: how tall was Jenny? How high off the ground was the knife (I know it's mentioned, just too tired to look it up presently). What sort of force would be need to drive a very sharp, long knife 7cm into a lung? How much resistance would those organs have offered (here I am examining what kind of force was needed)? What does the downward angle of the wound imply given that the knife was firmly fixed in the window grill (perhaps best answered after we know the relevant heights..)

Idk, there would not have been much room for Jenny to throw herself forward onto the blade (there was a window grill there..). With the force needed to penetrate her body/lung, would she not have hit her head on the security grill?

How much blood would have escaped from her wound after she pulled away from the knife, given that she'd nicked a major artery of the heart? Is it possible for no blood to have escaped the wound as she fell away, only for it to pool around her? No arterial spray on the wall/ground by the window?

Now to real estate... thanks to the sleuthing power of Fig Tree, I saw the sale records of the house: Sold: $570,000 on 29/05/2009 -- quick eh, and apparently there was already another woman living with Cook in that house (and no ghosts, eh Paul???) by the time it sold.

Anyway, I am also looking at the Work Cover claim he benefitted from (which a few hundred thou, if the figure of 800K from house and claim is right). I am 100% ignorant on how work cover works, and how Jenny's death might have affected it. Also, I didn't know partners could get the money if their spouse died..

And if it is ever proven he murdered her, or conspired to have her murdered... would he be liable also for fraud, over that claim?

PHEW. So many questions. I know we have a lot of professional folks here, so I am hoping some with the know-how to answer some of it come along!

I didn't see mention of how high the knife was, however, the wound on Jenny was 135cm from her heel.

The knife penetrated the lung 7cm then back . Trying to get my head around that, does it mean back toward her chest?

 

[BJsleuth]

I've just done some measurements. I'm 178cm. From my heel, 135cm is 15cm below my shoulder. Measuring the screen doors on my house, if she were standing to do that, at 135cm, the knife would have had to be fairly high up I'd imagine.

MOO

 

[Ausgirl]

I wish I knew how tall Jenny was, precisely. Cause I am thinking, if you're ramming yourself onto a knife that is -fixed- to a wall, the wound is perhaps more likely to be straight, or maybe even angle up a bit (it's much easier to apply downward force to a whole body weight, rather than throw it upward, if that makes sense).

If someone was stabbed in the heart area by a taller person, or even one's own hand if the knife was in it, I'd expect the angle to track downward, due to the necessary motion/momentum involved.

I wonder if there's any way we could get a look at the *actual* autopsy docs?

 

[Ausgirl]

I think because the blade entered in a downward position into Jennys rib area - and at such a depth - I cant imagine anyone jumping up into the knife, because that's what would have had to happened.
And I cant imagine the knife being jammed in that hard to stay in position with a persons weight on the knife.
She would have had to have thrown herself off the knife as well.
And there would have been a bigger cut opening area as the weight of the body slid down the knife edge, and if the knife moved at all the opening of the cut should be shorter than the cut within the body.

If the knife cut were uniform inside and out of the body - then I say it was inserted and pulled from the body - not self inflicted by walking into or jumping up into.

JMO

That knife would have needed to be clamped into position - not just wedged.


And (JMO) to cut yourself - the blade edge is the wrong way down.

There's some VERY interesting thoughts here, Figgy, thank you for them. The "wrong way down" - now I'm going to go stare at that knife pic for a while, ha. But yeah, it's all not sitting quite right with me, either.

 

[BJsleuth]

I wish I knew how tall Jenny was, precisely. Cause I am thinking, if you're ramming yourself onto a knife that is -fixed- to a wall, the wound is perhaps more likely to be straight, or maybe even angle up a bit (it's much easier to apply downward force to a whole body weight, rather than throw it upward, if that makes sense).

If someone was stabbed in the heart area by a taller person, or even one's own hand if the knife was in it, I'd expect the angle to track downward, due to the necessary motion/momentum involved.

I wonder if there's any way we could get a look at the *actual* autopsy docs?

I totally agree with you. It would so difficult for someone to hoist themself up onto a knife. There was a risk of it moving, where if it was straight, then the handle of the knife would just go against the back of the crevice giving counter-resistance.

The body manoeuvre required to do it is mind boggling let alone for someone with a back injury who has had a couple of surgeries on it.

The photo of the knife doesn't have anything in it to reference to give an indication of it's height. I was trying to make out what was in the bottom left of that photo. Anyone have any ideas what it might be? It's sort of cylindrical. I wondered if it was a gas bottle but it looks like it's part of the house.

I was wondering about the autopsy results too!

 

[BJsleuth]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/knife-edge-20140714-3bvp7.html
Here you go ausgirl

Bumping this pic again. SC Griffith said Jenny had spent time on her palms indicated by the lividity, at which time she vomited up blood onto the plywood sheet, then she rolled backwards. How?? Presumably she would be still facing the knife so how was she able to vomit up blood onto the ply which seems like it would have been behind her when she did that.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

I totally agree with you. It would so difficult for someone to hoist themself up onto a knife. There was a risk of it moving, where if it was straight, then the handle of the knife would just go against the back of the crevice giving counter-resistance.

The body manoeuvre required to do it is mind boggling let alone for someone with a back injury who has had a couple of surgeries on it.

The photo of the knife doesn't have anything in it to reference to give an indication of it's height. I was trying to make out what was in the bottom left of that photo. Anyone have any ideas what it might be? It's sort of cylindrical. I wondered if it was a gas bottle but it looks like it's part of the house.

I was wondering about the autopsy results too!

Wasn't she also injured or at least dealing with limited mobility or chronic pain? How you gonna be leaping up onto a knife of all things if youre having pain with movement in the first place?!

 

[Ausgirl]

Really, there is ONE fact that *should* have prevented this from being so very very quickly dismissed as a suicide, crime scene handed back, knife destroyed, etc --- and that is that undoubtedly, at some point between Jenny's heart ceasing to beat and gravity drawing the blood in her body down (lividity) and her limbs stiffening to the point that they could not bend (rigor mortis) -- someone moved her arm.

This was noted by people present at the scene.

SC Griffiths said he believed Ms Cook had come off the knife quite quickly and then been in a position with her palms flat on the ground for some time. In that position she had vomited up the blood which was seen on the side of the board and the lividity in her palms had been established. She then rolled backwards and ended up in that position, except for the fact that someone had rotated her right arm clockwise so that her palm was then facing up. (inquest report, p.24)

Her body had been moved after death but Mr Cook, the paramedics and the police all state emphatically that they did not move her body;
(inquest report, p.32)

Remember, Cook said that when he found Jenny, she was "stiff" - at first he admits only to 'moving her lips' but later at the police station admits to touching her arm:

He tried to move her arm a bit but it was set solid;
(inquest report, p.9)

.. implying that the police were well aware her arm had been moved post-mortem but pre-rigor, and were at that point probably asking him about it. I would LOVE to see the interview transcripts (if there are any.....) to see what was said and by whom, on that topic.

So the fact is, ---somebody--- moved that arm! So --somebody-- MUST have been present with Jenny's body after she died. So how does that NOT equate to a suspicious circumstance? How does that equate to "nobody else was present"?

 

[Ausgirl]

I actually have trouble with spatial imagination (and this is why I often do crime scene re-enactments on my cats, friends, housemates and offspring, they are all very tolerant of me, bless them, lol!) so forgive me if I am way off base here -- but my housemate suggested maybe she could have a downward angled wound if she was bent over a bit.

I.. dunno. I can't picture it well enough to say. But my first thought was, she had very little room to bend there, with the window grill and all. I just can't grasp the angles involved.

 

[Ausgirl]

I cropped out the bloody part of the knife but this is a picture of it stuck in the grill. I personally think this is not the angle the knife was on at all when it entered her chest, I just can't see how that would happen. Anyway, visible is the *very* neat and tidy wrapping as well as the angle of the knife:

 

[BJsleuth]

Wasn't she also injured or at least dealing with limited mobility or chronic pain? How you gonna be leaping up onto a knife of all things if youre having pain with movement in the first place?!

That's exactly right. She had a ruptured disc in her spine for which she'd had surgery at least once. Usually that is secured with titanium rods. I'm not convinced it would allow her to have done that.

I just checked the inquest doc and wanted to add, yes, Jenny had had two surgeries for her back.

 

[BJsleuth]

Really, there is ONE fact that *should* have prevented this from being so very very quickly dismissed as a suicide, crime scene handed back, knife destroyed, etc --- and that is that undoubtedly, at some point between Jenny's heart ceasing to beat and gravity drawing the blood in her body down (lividity) and her limbs stiffening to the point that they could not bend (rigor mortis) -- someone moved her arm.

This was noted by people present at the scene.

SC Griffiths said he believed Ms Cook had come off the knife quite quickly and then been in a position with her palms flat on the ground for some time. In that position she had vomited up the blood which was seen on the side of the board and the lividity in her palms had been established. She then rolled backwards and ended up in that position, except for the fact that someone had rotated her right arm clockwise so that her palm was then facing up. (inquest report, p.24)

Her body had been moved after death but Mr Cook, the paramedics and the police all state emphatically that they did not move her body;
(inquest report, p.32)

Remember, Cook said that when he found Jenny, she was "stiff" - at first he admits only to 'moving her lips' but later at the police station admits to touching her arm:

He tried to move her arm a bit but it was set solid;
(inquest report, p.9)

.. implying that the police were well aware her arm had been moved post-mortem but pre-rigor, and were at that point probably asking him about it. I would LOVE to see the interview transcripts (if there are any.....) to see what was said and by whom, on that topic.

So the fact is, ---somebody--- moved that arm! So --somebody-- MUST have been present with Jenny's body after she died. So how does that NOT equate to a suspicious circumstance? How does that equate to "nobody else was present"?

Yes, I think it should have been investigated anyway simply because it seems unusual and a really complicated/convoluted way to suicide. It was a risk that it might not work and it would have been painful while waiting to die if she had missed and not hit where she did. How did she know she would hit the knife while her head was covered with a sheet and tied on with the bathrobe sash?

 

[BJsleuth]

I actually have trouble with spatial imagination (and this is why I often do crime scene re-enactments on my cats, friends, housemates and offspring, they are all very tolerant of me, bless them, lol!) so forgive me if I am way off base here -- but my housemate suggested maybe she could have a downward angled wound if she was bent over a bit.

I.. dunno. I can't picture it well enough to say. But my first thought was, she had very little room to bend there, with the window grill and all. I just can't grasp the angles involved.

My hubby seems to think she would have slumped onto the wall/screen or fallen backwards. The other idea I had was if she was kneeling and pushed up onto it. I can't see jumping up on it from a standing position with enough force.

 

[FigTree]

Yes, I think it should have been investigated anyway simply because it seems unusual and a really complicated/convoluted way to suicide. It was a risk that it might not work and it would have been painful while waiting to die if she had missed and not hit where she did. How did she know she would hit the knife while her head was covered with a sheet and tied on with the bathrobe sash?

Good question.
And why the sheet and the robe sash anyway?
What was that about?
It seems something totally alien to the knife and the board - not that the board isn't just as out of place.
Are they thinking Jenny moved that board there? Cant see that happening with her back the way it was. Cant see her moving it into place with the wheel barrow either - why would that happen, let alone that board just to be left there.
Actually the whole set up seems to be badly staged.
To hit that knife, blindfolded?

Investigators could re-enact this.

Was PC training in the Army in QLD?
Why did he not stay in the Army?

 

[Ausgirl]

Okay, now I am obsessing on that arm..

Not so much on *who* right now, but on *why* they'd move it, so her palm faced up and not down. Checking for pulse?

 

[FigTree]

If the knife was going to be the weapon of choice - why did Jenny not just stab herself?
(without all this other set up)

 

[BJsleuth]

Good question.
And why the sheet and the robe sash anyway?
What was that about?
It seems something totally alien to the knife and the board - not that the board isn't just as out of place.
Are they thinking Jenny moved that board there? Cant see that happening with her back the way it was. Cant see her moving it into place with the wheel barrow either - why would that happen, let alone that board just to be left there.
Actually the whole set up seems to be badly staged.
To hit that knife, blindfolded?

Investigators could re-enact this.

Was PC training in the Army in QLD?
Why did he not stay in the Army?

It seems too far fetched. You're right, the sheet and sash are out of place, along with the board. Why would she be concerned about ensuring the blood went only on the board? The intent was to suicide so it wasn't like she would have to clean it up and she had no control over what happened or where she fell after she was impaled so how was the board going to help?

 

[Ausgirl]

Re the board - I'd like to know whether it was there prior to her death, as corroborated by anyone other than her husband. Did she have visitors that may have seen it? Why was it there at all, if it was so heavy and cumbersome, ie - what purpose was it used or intended for, prior to being under Jenny? If it was not kept on the ground right where it was, usually, then where was it usually kept?

......questions that *ought* to have been asked and answered during police interviews.

 

[catswhiskers]

Bumping this pic again. SC Griffith said Jenny had spent time on her palms indicated by the lividity, at which time she vomited up blood onto the plywood sheet, then she rolled backwards. How?? Presumably she would be still facing the knife so how was she able to vomit up blood onto the ply which seems like it would have been behind her when she did that.

I'm confused about the lividity on her palms as well. My understanding of lividity is that it's post-mortem pooling of the blood in whatever part of the body is in contact with the underlying surface. If Jenny was kneeling forward with her palms on the ground for a time, vomiting blood (and you'd think with blood gushing from her wound also in that position - gravity and all) then rolled over to the position she was found in, how could lividity occur in her palms while she was still alive? Does that make sense?

I wish that diagram wasn't so blurry - can anyone make out how high it says that fence is?

 

[BJsleuth]

Re the board - I'd like to know whether it was there prior to her death, as corroborated by anyone other than her husband. Did she have visitors that may have seen it? Why was it there at all, if it was so heavy and cumbersome, ie - what purpose was it used or intended for, prior to being under Jenny? If it was not kept on the ground right where it was, usually, then where was it usually kept?

......questions that *ought* to have been asked and answered during police interviews.

Maybe another question. What was under it? Was it concealing something too?