Australia Australia - Jenny Cook, 29, Townsville, Qld, 19 Jan 2009

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Re hands & throat cuts - Williams states there were none.

I do think it feasible that blood on hands and throat could be mistaken for wounds, tho, as was pointed out by someone else earlier. But then Cook was close enough to move her lips, the floodlights were on - and he was at the scene for a couple hours with the cops and coroner - I'm not sure if he'd have been informed of exactly what happened?
 
Awesome post laser! Your thoughts about the stones and their possible disturbance/easy clean up is something I have thought often too - easier than lawn/plants to tidy up and conceal any activity there. Not even Jenny's own footprints to check up on, let alone a possible second person's.

Yes Catwhiskers. Exactly. Someone could also have bucketed away stained pebbles/rocks too, couldn't they? Say if the dog had stepped in blood and rummaged in the stones? Scoop bucket loads of them from the area and either replace with new stones or simply spread existing remainder to fill in any gaps. A good hosing would disperse a lot down into the ground beneath, also. Not that the police bothered looking into any of that, apparently
 
Re hands & throat cuts - Williams states there were none.

I do think it feasible that blood on hands and throat could be mistaken for wounds, tho, as was pointed out by someone else earlier.


Yes. Seemed plausible to me that congealed blood and vomit could -- especially considering heat in January up in Townsville -- have 'set' around the folds of the neck, etc. and could have looked like a slashed throat, amongst other things not all that long afterwards

(be back later)
 
To me some cuts on the hands and some bloody hand or fingerprints on that knife would make the suicide story a shred more believable.
I don't believe for a minute that either Jenny or any other party could have jammed that knife into the position it was in without leaving some sort of finger or partial hand prints on wall or screen - unless they were wearing mighty thick protective gloves. That particular knife seems to have a very slender handle/grip on it - I can't see how you would even begin to jam it in, handle first, without touching the surroundings and slicing your hands to boot.
 
RSBM

I'm still wondering if she could have been stabbed elsewhere by someone else and her body staged on the board at the side of the house afterwards, then the knife with its drop of blood put in place in the frame. If so, premeditated murder

Yes, you're right, the pebbles can be shifted around and it didn't look like the police, by their own admission, checked thoroughly either.
From the coroner's findings, the laundry, bin and garage were not searched. Like you've suggested, Jenny could have been killed some place else, the laundry or garage? The perp would know the exact place to stab so the blood fills the lungs instead of spraying out before removing the knife? Does that make sense?
The perp making the measurements would have to be pretty accurate, place the knife 153 cm up from Jenny's heals equivalent with window frame with knife.
Any other evidence like the string, tape, mop up towels and whatever could have been thrown in bin. :gaah:

JMHO
 
I did find this example, though, of self-impalement being carefully planned:

An 80-year-old man with pancreatic adenocarcinoma and depression was found with his head impaled on a bolt that had been screwed into a hole that had been drilled in the floor of a shed at his home address. Once the bolt was in place the decedent had winched a heavy weight above it, using a pulley that he had attached to the metal roof frame, and the front fork of a bicycle frame. The latter had been bolted to a nearby work bench as a winching device. After the weight had been positioned, he had placed his head over the bolt and cut the rope with a kitchen knife. The impact of the falling weight had forced his head onto the bolt with penetration of the cranial cavity. The complexity of the design of the suicide apparatus is exceedingly rare in our experience and the time taken to set up the device indicated that there had been a considerable degree of premeditation. The finding of complex apparatus at a death scene may provide useful information in ascertaining the manner of death and also in providing some indication as to the decedent's level of determination to succeed.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225295710_Head_impalement_-_An_unusual_form_of_suicide

I think part in bold is what helps to negate Jenny's death as a suicide - if she was bent on success, she would not be tying a sheet around her head, as that significantly reduces her chances.

Another determined fellow cutting his own head off, very bizarre. :scared: :facepalm: In Jenny's case, like the two men mentioned, I believe its something a man would devise, don't you think? Probably sounds a bit sexist though, lol.

----------------

A MAN chopped off his own head with a chainsaw in an intricate plan involving a timer, snooker table and sticky tape because he didn't want to get kicked out of his home, his inquest has heard.

David Phyall, 50, went ahead with the suicide because he was "irrationally opposed" to being moved out, a British inquest heard.

He tied the Black & Decker tool to a leg of a snooker table in his lounge with string, taped up the on button and plugged it into a timer.

Mr Phyall then lay down under the snooker table face up and placed the chainsaw against his neck, Winchester Coroner’s Court heard.

A piece of the tool’s cardboard box initially cushioned the blades from his neck.

The hearing heard the timer, which is usually used to turn lights on and off, was fixed to start up the chainsaw for 15 minutes.

Disturbingly, the plan went off without a hitch.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/world/inquest-told-man-cuts-off-own-head-with-chainsaw/story-e6frev00-1111118092945
 
Oh gee. I was halfway through this post which should have been posted fifteen minutes ago. But almost at the end of it, someone came in magging away about reviews for a coffee machine we bought and hate and I couldn't post when I wanted to, or think straight afterwards. So if this sounds like gabble, please make allowances ...


Feel free to disagree, because I'm just floating this one before running up the street

Is there any evidence available to us that's convinced you beyond doubt that Jenny actually died there at the side of the house?

Officers at the scene claimed later that they'd seen no evidence at the side of the house to indicate the involvement of a second person. But how difficult would it be for a second person to tidy up the scene if they had time at their disposal? I could tidy up disturbed rocks, I'm sure, and no-one would know, later, that they'd been moved or tidied up. They're just rocks. They don't have a definite position. They're not glued down. As long as they were flattened and neat, who'd know they'd been moved and then brushed back in place?

Officers also claimed there was virtually no evidence on the wall or beneath it, apart from a drop of blood from the tip of the knife which had fallen on a stone beneath. So no blood-spray? According to Williams' autopsy, the knife went in approx. 6 cms from the mid-line, to the left? Sank in to a depth of approx. 7 cms? She must have come off the knife very swiftly then, surely? Must have fallen backwards almost instantly, for no blood to seep out and onto the ground? Must have fallen backwards from the knife almost instantly for their to be no blood at all on the wall?

How neat. No mess. Fell backwards. Blood etc. contained mainly to the board on which her body lay, sheet beneath her and around her head. Must have been fast as lightning, don't you think? The sheet beneath her -- I'll have to take another look at that later, but I seem to remember it was described as almost full-length beneath her, on the board. Almost as if it had been arranged that way. Maybe I'm wrong. But it seems odd to me if the sheet was close to full length beneath the body, because I've a feeling the body would collapse down onto the backside first, followed by the upper body hitting the ground and legs splaying out to the front or side, depending on how she fell or came to rest

The knife, upon impact, would be similar to a punch. At least that's what I've read. People have said they initially didn't even realize they'd been stabbed. They said they thought they'd been punched at the time it happened. And thrusting oneself on an embedded knife would have to be thrust with a fair amount of force, I'd think, to penetrate. It's not something you'd want to have to do twice or more or you might chicken out. So you'd have to thrust yourself determinedly, not half-heartedly

I'm thinking now of information about two cars striking each other and how the combination of their speeds exceeds that of either individual vehicle. The knife was stationary. The force would have to come from the individual's direction. The knife would go in, if sufficient force were applied by the individual. Then, when the knife struck a vital organ, the body of the individual would lose its own force, very likely -- and go into free-fall. Only one direction in which to fall, seeing the wall is immovable. But falling/collapsing bodies don't always or even often fall like trees, in a solid piece. The legs would buckle, I think, in reaction to pain, shock and injury and the brain losing control. So buckled legs would shorten the height of the body, for a start. Then it's likely the body would twist as it fell, because body parts would influence weight distribution and in turn, direction of the fall

Jenny was found neatly on her left side, according to the published drawing and to police photos taken at the scene to which we're not privy. Very neat. Almost as if she were sleeping. Arranged, almost?

The skull would have landed with a heck of a crack, surely? Did Williams mention abrasion or bruising, damage to the skull? I've fainted full-length onto a hard surface. Went down backwards like a log. Surprised I didn't kill myself. Head had a massive great lump. Jenny would not have been 100% dead when she landed -- well she wasn't, we know that because of the vomiting, etc. -- so blood would still have been pumping and there should -- surely -- have been measurable damage to her skull, shouldn't there?

But it's the sheet beneath her which continues to intrigue me. I'll have to really take a look at the coronial findings later to see if the sheet lay beneath her almost full length. Because if so, that's curious, odd. The sheet would billow around her as she fell, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it be found mainly beneath her upper body if that were the case, or blown right up behind her head -- blown up by the breeze caused by the body's rapid descent? What do others think?

And let's take a look at the height of that window and knife placement too. We know from the autopsy it struck Jenny 135 cms. from her heels? But where are the police reports about the height of the knife - anyone know? Did they measure?

I'm still wondering if she could have been stabbed elsewhere by someone else and her body staged on the board at the side of the house afterwards, then the knife with its drop of blood put in place in the frame. If so, premeditated murder

First of all - brilliant post, laserdisc.:loveyou: What you've said makes so much sense.

Secondly - bbm. The way her body was laying has always seemed suspicious to me. Too neat. Certainly has a staged presentation, judging by the sketch we've all seen.

That, combined with the complete lack of mess makes me think you're onto something...........:thinking:
 
Re hands & throat cuts - Williams states there were none.

I do think it feasible that blood on hands and throat could be mistaken for wounds, tho, as was pointed out by someone else earlier. But then Cook was close enough to move her lips, the floodlights were on - and he was at the scene for a couple hours with the cops and coroner - I'm not sure if he'd have been informed of exactly what happened?

Jenny's mother saw the cut on her neck and the second cut on her chest at the mortuary.
I also thought that if there were pointed cuts in these places Jenny could have been held at knife point.
If they were on her hands - they could have been defensive (but she may have not been able to see the knife).

The idea about moving Jenny to the back balcony - the only thing I wondered about that was how much vomit was off the board and on the surround area - even vomit and blood spatter. Was the board outlined. What was the ruling of the spatter marks from an expert? Any money this wasn't checked.
She could have been moved after being stabbed - thought - that idea was tossed around earlier - the board under her to move her.

The lividity marks surely would hold the pattern of the surface her hands were on - was it the board or pebbles?
Her knees and ankles would also show how he body was positioned - but
Im wondering how the lividity came to be on her palms at all.

It sounds staged to me.

Her palms should be face down where she was found. In rigor her hands should then be at least some degree of right angles from her wrist. Her elbows should be bent out. She should be lying on her face. She should be splayed forward.

If she had been on her palms vomiting or trying to get up her body would have just slumped forward as she died the arms giving way - NOT roll backwards and then to the side.
 
I'm thinking that she was killed inside the house and then brought outside afterward. I'm thinking about how nobody heard anything....

And I'm also thinking about blood spatter etc.....I've read of several serial killers who did their deeds in the bathroom for easy cleaning afterward. The blood just drains away down the bath and wipes easily off tiles....... :facepalm:

Then the killer just had to bring the body outside to stage the 'suicide' scene.

Just a thought.
 
Yes, Isis. Looks staged. Of course, it could just be that she collapsed that way - have to add that for balance I suppose

But I've been thinking a bit about it during the speed run up the road, fast meals made, etc. Try to remember what you did when you were really hurt and in pain, in fear. Foetal position? Down on your knees, body bent over, hands to the wound or pain? Totally on the ground, body curled up? Bent over double, arms wrapped around your middle? On all fours, head hanging down, trying to cough up? The curling the body over on itself seems to be fairly common, doesn't it, even when people are distressed but not physically hurt. Nature makes us try to protect our internal organs, I think, although I haven't done any research on it

And especially if you can't breath because your lung's punctured - and you're vomiting blood and scared, choking, retching, lapsing in and out of consciousness maybe

Jenny's almost in the recovery position, isn't she? And lividity reveals that for some time, her hands were flat on the board, apparently

Just my thoughts, but even if you'd planned to kill yourself and were happy to be dying, the body's fight for survival still rules - which is why so many attempted suicides fail, because the body fights the mind. The body is an animal, it wants to live and will fight to live as long as it has a breath left in it. The best way to get a breath is not to lie down on your side, your hands out of the way and flat on a surface level with you, imo. I think the body would haul itself onto all fours at least in order to cough up, with the head hanging down. Then, when the body gave up the ghost against insurmountable odds, it would collapse face down and the arms would splay out at each side. The legs would collapse behind. The mouth would probably still be open. Maybe I'm remembering too many movies, I don't know. But we have Williams, the professor forensic pathologist who suggested Jenny could have lived for up to an hour after thrusting herself on the knife. Others believed it would have been quick. I don't think their suggestions hold any more validity than our own

Someone rotated her arm after lividity but before rigor, to the best of my limited understanding

No-one's admitted rotating her hand. No-one could have done it after rigor set in anyway, could they?

So maybe Jenny was killed elsewhere. Then left for a while, during which lividity set in. Then the killer moved her to the side of the house, put her on the board -- arranged her

Maybe, while they were arranging her, they grabbed her arms or hands to put her in position. And maybe they left one of her hands in the wrong position. Then, after further time, rigor mortis set in. And the killer (if he realized his mistake with the hand, which is probably doubtful anyway) went back to try to push her hand back to position and discovered that ... as PC told investigators, 'her arm had set solid' or whatever he said. I think it's more likely the killer went back to make sure she was well and truly dead before calling for help. Dead women can tell no tales. And if someone murdered Jenny, they would not want her coming back to life to point the finger at them
 
Jenny's mother saw the cut on her neck and the second cut on her chest at the mortuary.
I also thought that if there were pointed cuts in these places Jenny could have been held at knife point.
If they were on her hands - they could have been defensive (but she may have not been able to see the knife).

The idea about moving Jenny to the back balcony - the only thing I wondered about that was how much vomit was off the board and on the surround area - even vomit and blood spatter. Was the board outlined. What was the ruling of the spatter marks from an expert? Any money this wasn't checked.
She could have been moved after being stabbed - thought - that idea was tossed around earlier - the board under her to move her.

The lividity marks surely would hold the pattern of the surface her hands were on - was it the board or pebbles?
Her knees and ankles would also show how he body was positioned - but
Im wondering how the lividity came to be on her palms at all.

It sounds staged to me.

Her palms should be face down where she was found. In rigor her hands should then be at least some degree of right angles from her wrist. Her elbows should be bent out. She should be lying on her face. She should be splayed forward.

If she had been on her palms vomiting or trying to get up her body would have just slumped forward as she died the arms giving way - NOT roll backwards and then to the side.



Figtree, should say here that the blood and vomit which may have 'set' in the folds of her neck etc, (particularly in Nth Qld summer heat) might have made PC believe Jenny had stabbed or slashed her throat, as he told Mr. Reis. Not implying Jenny's mother would be led to that conclusion once her daughter had been cleaned up prior to viewing, when people would have rendered Jenny's appearance as 'normal' as possible for the sake of her family


I'm not aware of any 'back balcony' though. The real estate's description of the house states a front balcony leading off the master bedroom and a patio at the rear. Do you have a plan of the house or information about a back balcony and if so, could you post it please, because I haven't been able to find it
 
Jenny's mother saw the cut on her neck and the second cut on her chest at the mortuary.
I also thought that if there were pointed cuts in these places Jenny could have been held at knife point.
If they were on her hands - they could have been defensive (but she may have not been able to see the knife).

The idea about moving Jenny to the back balcony - the only thing I wondered about that was how much vomit was off the board and on the surround area - even vomit and blood spatter. Was the board outlined. What was the ruling of the spatter marks from an expert? Any money this wasn't checked.
She could have been moved after being stabbed - thought - that idea was tossed around earlier - the board under her to move her.

The lividity marks surely would hold the pattern of the surface her hands were on - was it the board or pebbles?
Her knees and ankles would also show how he body was positioned - but
Im wondering how the lividity came to be on her palms at all.

It sounds staged to me.

Her palms should be face down where she was found. In rigor her hands should then be at least some degree of right angles from her wrist. Her elbows should be bent out. She should be lying on her face. She should be splayed forward.

If she had been on her palms vomiting or trying to get up her body would have just slumped forward as she died the arms giving way - NOT roll backwards and then to the side.


The idea about moving Jenny to the back balcony - the only thing I wondered about that was how much vomit was off the board and on the surround area - even vomit and blood spatter. Was the board outlined. What was the ruling of the spatter marks from an expert? Any money this wasn't checked.
She could have been moved after being stabbed - thought - that idea was tossed around earlier - the board under her to move her


Figtree, some of the officers stated at the coronial enquiry that if it had been up to them (said in hindsight) they would have seized the board and would have subjected it to forensic examination, etc.

PS Osborn, for the record now in the coronial findings, said the board was 'big and covered in blood'. She did not instruct officers to seize the board or subject it to forensic investigation. It was too 'big' you see, and it was 'covered in blood'. So it was left at the scene. The house was released to PC 24 hours or less later. And PC said he disposed of it

Same with the plastic mentioned by PC; no tests, not seized


Board was not dragged. Big board, very cumbersome as Bardell testified. Not something he would attempt to lift, he said. But there it was on the stones. No drag marks. So if it was dragged, someone tidied the stones afterwards and covered up the drag marks. If it was lifted, all 150cms x 150 cms of it, weighing between 10 and 20 kilos by PC's estimation (more if it was marine ply) then it almost certainly wasn't Jenny who lifted it. Her back was wrecked. Your lifting strength comes from your back and shoulders. Weak or sore back and holding a bag of sugar is agony. So either someone fairly strong carried that board into position or someone dragged it and then covered up the drag marks. Not Jenny though as she was dying or dead


If she had been on her palms vomiting or trying to get up her body would have just slumped forward as she died the arms giving way - NOT roll backwards and then to the side

Agree
 
Two thoughts …

The small cut on Jenny’s neck - could she have sliced her neck with her own fingernail if she was desperately trying to slide/manoeuvre her fingers under a strangling bathrobe belt to loosen it?

Small amount of blood at the scene .. if the knife went in very cleanly, and was left in the wound until the heart stopped pumping blood through her system and then was cleanly removed, perhaps little blood would escape the wound?

“Leave the stabbing object in the wound if it is still there. Pulling it out will increase blood loss … “

http://www.wikihow.com/Attend-to-a-Stab-Wound
 
I'm thinking that she was killed inside the house and then brought outside afterward. I'm thinking about how nobody heard anything....

And I'm also thinking about blood spatter etc.....I've read of several serial killers who did their deeds in the bathroom for easy cleaning afterward. The blood just drains away down the bath and wipes easily off tiles....... :facepalm:

Then the killer just had to bring the body outside to stage the 'suicide' scene.

Just a thought.


Yes, perfectly within the bounds of possibility. Basically though, the house was given only a cursory search, seeing officers weren't instructed by DS Osborn as to what they were supposed to be looking for. As many of them said at the enquiry, they weren't told about the string and tape on the knife, nor did Osborn instruct them to specifically look for those items, so they were not looked for. And as at least one officer said, even if he'd come across string and tape, it would have meant nothing to him

Luminol wasn't used to check for blood in the house. There were 24 officers there, according to the report. Mostly, they just meandered around. Then the house was released to PC after less than 24 hours. He could have replaced tiles and flooring and bathed the place in bleach to his heart's content after that, in the same way he was allowed to keep and dispose of the board. And the plastic PC himself spoke of -- not a word. Yet it could well have contained blood, DNA and fingerprint evidence
 
Wow, the things you find ...


This:

In November 2008, when Mr and Ms Cook moved into their new house, Ms Cook had a 5 kilogram weight limit

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/217931/cif-cook-jl-20131206.pdf


I'd seen it before, but half-thinkingly believed it meant for some reason, Jenny Cook had put herself on a diet, or maybe her doctor had, i.e. she was not allowed to gain more than 5 kgs. I thought that must be because of the strain it would put on her back or something

Saw it again just now and finally dawned on me. Jenny was not allowed to lift or carry more than 5kgs

PC guessed the board was 10kgs or 20kgs. But, as the coronial findings stated, PC told the coroner he believed Jenny could lift the board !

The coroner also stated for the record that PC was evasive and did not always tell the truth

No wonder he wanted to persuade that Jenny could lift that 150cms x 150cms board weighing 10 to 20 kg. If SHE hadn't lifted it and as he said he didn't, then WHO put the board there? Casper? <modsnip>
 
Well, I'm going to have a look for the financial details, such as they are -- once I've had a nap

I'm personally convinced it was possible that Jenny was murdered. There's at least an equal possibility she was murdered as opposed to suicide, imo

So now I'm going to have a bit of a look for motive

<modsnip>


Then we have 'aggression' and 'hostility' alleged re: PC by woman with whom he had relationship. Sounds as if he was possessive, even territorial re: that woman. Woman took out a protective order against him, allegedly. Indicates potential for aggression within marriage

Can't put my finger on it right now re: remark somewhere about PC wanting Jenny to forgo loan payments to her parents and to put more money into the mortgage repayments? Anyone have that to hand or know more please?

Otherwise I'll scout around later. Know I didn't imagine it

And Jenny's insurance policies. Is it mandatory to take out insurance when applying for a mortgage, anyone know? Jenny had two policies, did she? They paid out to the spouse, as did Allison's. Think it's time women began naming someone other than their spouse as beneficiaries. Only half seriously here, but with a bit of arm-twisting I could almost believe there's some sort of underground men's movement advocating marriage, insurance policies and dead, young wives as a way to get money when young enough to enjoy it and buy a convertible
 
I don't recall reading about increasing mortgage repayments, but there was talk of her lifting her contributions to her super payments I believe.

laser I know what you mean at the end of your post above. I thought I was imagining a spate of suicidal wives leaving behind not-so-grief-stricken partners.
 
RSBM

And Jenny's insurance policies. Is it mandatory to take out insurance when applying for a mortgage, anyone know? Jenny had two policies, did she? They paid out to the spouse, as did Allison's. Think it's time women began naming someone other than their spouse as beneficiaries. Only half seriously here, but with a bit of arm-twisting I could almost believe there's some sort of underground men's movement advocating marriage, insurance policies and dead, young wives as a way to get money when young enough to enjoy it and buy a convertible

Laserdisc, it's not mandatory to take out life insurance when you acquire a mortgage. It is mandatory to take out house insurance on the house, so that the 'asset' is insured but that's it. Life insurance never comes into the equation.
 
Folks making another note here...

Please don't allude to or accuse someone as being a suspect or POI unless police have named them as such.
 

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