Found Deceased Australia - Karen Ristevski, 47, Melbourne, Vic, 29 June 2016 - #16 *Arrest*

[SouthAussie]

it's the old story of choice, would you rather put your foot in a bucket of boiling oil or a bucket of angry scorpions?... it's pain all round.

But it seems that Borce couldn't cope with either of the choices he made.. to not declare bankruptcy, and to continue accumulating debt.

Somewhere, I got the idea that Borce was already a declared bankrupt. Due to the hard hit he took on his previous venture into trade. How he managed to register businesses is a mystery to me.

Another interesting thing about bankruptcy .... if someone else has signed the personal loan agreement with you (such as a brother, brother in law, or other family member), they are still liable for the entire debt even if you declare and are granted bankruptcy.

Almost every question answered – Voluntary Bankruptcy in Australia

 

[SouthAussie]

I'd be very very surprised that anybody knew about the horrendous debt. Even Vlasko , perhaps, didn't know the full extent of it. I just cant see Borce blabbing casually about it. His entire identity relied on the presentation of Borce being a canny money manager, not a fiscal ning nong, with the financial smarts of a poodle.

I think Vasko was aware of a huge amount of the debt, and possibly was in debt right along with Borce.

"But the family was plunged into debt when the clothing manufacture and wholesaler, Blue Jean Co, which Mr Ristevski owned with his brother Vasko, collapsed and left him with $600,000 in unsecured debt."
Borce and Karen Ristevski had money problems before her death

 

[Trooper]

I think Vasko was aware of a huge amount of the debt, and possibly was in debt right along with Borce.

"But the family was plunged into debt when the clothing manufacture and wholesaler, Blue Jean Co, which Mr Ristevski owned with his brother Vasko, collapsed and left him with $600,000 in unsecured debt."
Borce and Karen Ristevski had money problems before her death

ooo thanks for that, SA.. I knew it wasn't BellaBleu mark 1... and I had forgotten entirely that Vlasko was a partner... !!.. how could I forget that significant gem!...

and that $600,000 is the foundation of the current debt of Mr and Mrs Borce Ristevski… how much Mr and Mrs Vlasko Ristevski are in up to their necks for, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out it was in the general area of Borce and Karen's burden.

 

[drsleuth]

'Insufficient weight': Magistrate asked to drop Ristevski murder charge

Detective Sergeant Graham Hamilton told the court he gave Mr Ristevski the chance in July 2016 to admit to killing his wife when he asked: ‘‘Is there something you want to tell me? Good people make mistakes. Has something happened?’’

Mr Ristevski, the court heard, replied: ‘‘What do you want me to say? Nothing happened.’’

Detective Senior Constable Timothy Ryan said in a statement that when he arrested Mr Ristevski in December last year, he told him: ‘‘Tell us what happened to Karen.’’

Mr Ristevski replied: ‘‘You tell me.’’

 

[Chewie1]

I’m very interested in this case and have followed it since the beginning. But it’s so frustrating to see how adamant people are that Sarah was involved in killing her mother.

Grounds seem to be:
- she went overseas (she’s 21, life actually does continue. I lost my dad at 20 and I still travelled and had fun, I also had days of despair-filled crippling grief)
- she seems to be protecting her dad (is it really that hard to accept that she just loves him so much that she’s willing to believe all his lies 100%??)
- she focuses on herself during cross examination, seems self centred (really? She lost her mum, oh and she’s a millennial lol)
- she asked for clarification for a simple question (when I wasn a witness in a trial, I was told if I had even a shred of doubt about a question I needed to seek clarification)
- she didn’t look at her dad when on the stand (again, you’re advised to do this when giving evidence).

I’m honestly flabbergasted that so many people are out to string her up. Isn’t this a victim friendly forum? She’s a victim too.

Borce is on trial, he highly likely killed his wife, for all the reasons we have suspected all along. Sarah is not on trial, so everyone should just move past that. Stop hating on her just because she doesn’t fit your predefined image of a grieving daughter.

What is the typical image of a grieving daughter, using media to highlight your mum missing , assisting police in investigating your mothers disappearance ? Sarah is stone cold guilty of something.

 

[they'll get you]

Losing the house
Potentially losing other valuables (jewellery? designer items?)
Only being able to own a car worth less than $7,800
Any money earned over $50,000 p/a (each) would be paid to the creditors
Potentially no private school for Sarah
No personal loans or credit for 5 years
Name permanently on the National Personal Insolvency Index
Permission required to travel overseas

Maybe all of this was too much for them/him to cope with?

Indexed amounts | Australian Financial Security Authority
What are the consequences of bankruptcy? | Australian Financial Security Authority

The stigma of that would not do.
Those 100 shoes and handbags might have to be auctioned off.
This lot sickens me.

The parasite consumes the host.

 

[Trooper]

What is the typical image of a grieving daughter, using media to highlight your mum missing , assisting police in investigating your mothers disappearance ? Sarah is stone cold guilty of something.

damn straight. Stone cold.

 

[Fluffykins]

What is the typical image of a grieving daughter, using media to highlight your mum missing , assisting police in investigating your mothers disappearance ? Sarah is stone cold guilty of something.

I find it very hard to believe that she believes in her father's innocence. I think she surely must know he did it, but she'll do what she can to protect him because without him, she's all on her little lonesome. She had a mum and a dad and a home and a life. A little dog. Birthdays and Christmases. Who does she have now, what does she have now? Of course she wants her daddy back.

 

[Fluffykins]

So what happens now? The prosecution give their summary tomorrow, everyone goes off for their pies and sandwiches, they all come back again and the magistrate says I find sufficient evidence for Mr Borce Ristevski to stand trial on a charge of (a) or (b) and the next convenient date for that is January or February 2019 or some other distant date? Is that what to expect?

 

[Oz Jen]

..but bankruptcy wipes everything off
IMO this wasn't planned murder otherwise BR/VR would have buried the body never to be found

I don't get why they drive German cars and live in posh suburb when they have tons of debt, all they had to do was sell Avondale Heights property and buy house in St Albans for fraction of price and it is close to their shop.
Sometimes solution is so simple

BBM

Image.

Avondale Heights isn't a posh Melbourne suburb, but BR may have thought so.

 

[Trooper]

So what happens now? The prosecution give their summary tomorrow, everyone goes off for their pies and sandwiches, they all come back again and the magistrate says I find sufficient evidence for Mr Borce Ristevski to stand trial on a charge of (a) or (b) and the next convenient date for that is January or February 2019 or some other distant date? Is that what to expect?

that is precisely what I am expecting. The alternative is unsubstantiated as far as logic goes, as there is still the body of a dead woman in a bush grave , a fair way from home. Where she was 'last seen' . Someone is responsible for that death.

I don't expect him to get bail, either. That, again, would be radical . I expect Borce to sit in remand up to and until his trial for murder starts.

And if that doesn't happen I'll be awfully cross.

 

[3llecia]

I am optimistic the prosecution will go to trial with murder charges. A jury will find Borce guilty, a sentence made. Then the appeals will begin imo.

They have forensic science, forensic accounting, "secret" telecom evidence, motive. A husband who hid the truth from not just police, but her family.

Her family, their knowledge, along with the clear timeline of police evidence, will win this case for Karen imo. Borce has attempted to hide the truth at every step.

Her daughter? All I want to say is... once when I was young, I protected my family even though I bore witness to terrible things. He's her only parent left. I don't think he'll protect her though. He'll use anything he has (not a lot.)

She's much like the girls in The Staircase in my eyes. Not a good position, but I can unfortunately see how people hold on to the tiniest scrap of hope that your family are decent folk, even when everything's truly lost. I think I've been there myself, and it's like you compartmentalise your life so well... you can't see the big picture. It's easier to explain away terrible things too.

If she doesn't tell the truth, or see the truth, she'll be in her own moral prison for the rest of her life.

 

[kiwilaura]

What is the typical image of a grieving daughter, using media to highlight your mum missing , assisting police in investigating your mothers disappearance ? Sarah is stone cold guilty of something.

Well I personally disagree. She did originally assist police and use media. But she shut down when it was clear the cops were onto her dad. I think the behaviour in that situation can be hard to predict and justify, but may simply come down to true feelings of anger and injustice that her father has been charged. I think she’s guilty of being naive, obstructive and petty, but unlikely guilty of involvement in the crime. Seems the police think that too.

We can agree to disagree but I feel the accusations against her are unfair. I’ll report, scroll and roll.

 

[kiwilaura]

So what happens now? The prosecution give their summary tomorrow, everyone goes off for their pies and sandwiches, they all come back again and the magistrate says I find sufficient evidence for Mr Borce Ristevski to stand trial on a charge of (a) or (b) and the next convenient date for that is January or February 2019 or some other distant date? Is that what to expect?

Yes. The burden of proof at committal is usually pretty low and most cases go to trial. I expect we may even be waiting longer than early 2019 though.

 

[Trooper]

Yes. The burden of proof at committal is usually pretty low and most cases go to trial. I expect we may even be waiting longer than early 2019 though.

I think that is a mischaracterization of the process.. The burden of proof at committal for the Prosecutor is extremely stiff, in fact, a great deal of the court's money and time depends in the integrity of it, and the logic of it. The defence, at committal needs to do nothing , as you may have noticed, no one was called for the defence at all, which is usual, the entire burden rests upon the Prosecution.

The argument of the defence is necessary and Borce is entitled to it. It would be about even in regard to cases going to trial after a committal is heard, this is usually a matter reserved for the Supreme Court trials, and is a very necessary part of the entire process.

 

[purpleandgreen]

Well I personally disagree. She did originally assist police and use media. But she shut down when it was clear the cops were onto her dad. I think the behaviour in that situation can be hard to predict and justify, but may simply come down to true feelings of anger and injustice that her father has been charged. I think she’s guilty of being naive, obstructive and petty, but unlikely guilty of involvement in the crime. Seems the police think that too.

We can agree to disagree but I feel the accusations against her are unfair. I’ll report, scroll and roll.

I’m curious as to what you’ve found to report? All I’ve seen is good constructive opinion sharing, which is what WS is all about. But I agree, if other’s opinions hurt, then scroll and ignore is a great tool. Have used it many times.

In the meantime, welcome to the thread. Diversity of opinions is what it’s all about and very important for a balanced view.

Cheers

 

[Karinna]

Not sure which hearing this is at present for BR. Sounds like a Commital Mention if there are witnesses giving testimony in Court?
A Commital Mention
A Commital Hearing in the state of Victoria
(quote)
Committal Mention
A preliminary hearing prior to the full committal hearing. Permission to cross-examine witnesses may be given, matters in dispute will be discussed and a date for the committal hearing can be set at this stage. The Court may also hear and determine some charges if the accused pleads guilty.

Committal Hearing
A hearing where a magistrate will hear evidence of the prosecution and decide whether a properly instructed jury would convict the accused. This is the last hearing a matter will have before it proceeds to a higher jurisdiction.
Types of Hearings | Magistrates' Court of Victoria

 

[1968]

I

Gerard Curtin - forensic accountant
* BR squirreled business revenue.
* An account was set up just two weeks before Karen disappeared.
* Envirovision set up Dec 2015. Sarah shareholder. Borce director
* All revenue from Bella Bleu was going into this account from 3 July when the search for Karen was underway.
* Curtin could not explain why Warrant Brands were doing this.
* he suggested it could have been to avoid debt from the store that closed in Feb 2016
* There is no impact on Warrant Brands - it just means it has no revenue
* At the time Karen disappeared Warrant Brands was making ends meet. 371k in sales and 327k in expenses
* The purchase of 92k of stock in the summer - placed them in the red.
* Warrant owed the R's 217k and 100k was owed to family including Stephen Williams and Sarah.

Category: | Herald Sun
Borce Ristevski committal hearing told family was in ‘dire’ financial situation before Karen’s death

I reckon Borce was probably doing all sorts of dodgy stuff financially - a lot of crooked accounting happens routinely in the tax system with GST and GST credits. He was extremely triggered by his finances being looked at too closely - didn’t want any one to look at him closely - least of all the tax man. I would not be surprised to find he ends up being prosecuted for tax evasion or forced into bankruptcy, even if he somehow escapes a murder charge.

 

[sosocurious]

Well I personally disagree. She did originally assist police and use media. But she shut down when it was clear the cops were onto her dad. I think the behaviour in that situation can be hard to predict and justify, but may simply come down to true feelings of anger and injustice that her father has been charged. I think she’s guilty of being naive, obstructive and petty, but unlikely guilty of involvement in the crime. Seems the police think that too.

We can agree to disagree but I feel the accusations against her are unfair. I’ll report, scroll and roll.

She did speak to the police for a short while. After just days she clammed up in solidarity with her father.
I can even appreciate why she did that initially, naivety as you say. She loved her father there could be some denial, justifications and excuses for every story told or not told by her father to her and those that were trying to locate her missing mother.
The fact is she like the rest of us has now heard the lies her father told to family, friends and the police. Maybe to her. Maybe not.
At what point do you say to yourself "You know what. Something is not right" and ask "Dad do you have something to tell me?"
I guess there is always the possibility that she does not need to ask the question because she knows the answers. But we may never know that.
imo

 

[sosocurious]

Not sure which hearing this is at present for BR. Sounds like a Commital Mention if there are witnesses giving testimony in Court?
A Commital Mention
A Commital Hearing in the state of Victoria
(quote)
Committal Mention
A preliminary hearing prior to the full committal hearing. Permission to cross-examine witnesses may be given, matters in dispute will be discussed and a date for the committal hearing can be set at this stage. The Court may also hear and determine some charges if the accused pleads guilty.

Committal Hearing
A hearing where a magistrate will hear evidence of the prosecution and decide whether a properly instructed jury would convict the accused. This is the last hearing a matter will have before it proceeds to a higher jurisdiction.
Types of Hearings | Magistrates' Court of Victoria

Thanks, it is just about done and dusted.