Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Mel 1303]

Came across this article on the Marion Barter Facebook page, just taken a couple of snippets out of it, might help piecing things together .... so the article came out in 1967 when Johnny Warren was 24, so Marion would have been 22. Says they met at a party three years earlier - that would be the Young Liberals Party, hope this helps
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Two points- he was engaged to school teacher, so she was already a teacher, and had transferred to Wagga demonstration school.

 

[JLZ]

Two points- he was engaged to school teacher, so she was already a teacher, and had transferred to Wagga demonstration school.

Demonstration school could mean that she was in training to become a teacher? This was the practical part of her training?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Yes Alleycat13, and if you have an illness requiring medication in a lot of these ‘groups’ like Kenja it’s bad luck because they don’t allow you to take any drugs or medicine, as far as I can tell, so maybe that would explain no more doctors visits.

Whoops had to edit using phone, was double quoting and pushing wrong buttons... yikes!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Demonstration school (1884- ) A school used to demonstrate educational methods to trainee teachers and provide practice in teaching. From 1928, the term demonstration school replaced the previous term 'practice' school.Feb 11, 2019

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...rch/glossary&usg=AOvVaw23bKOMhtbhmVnEpRj4eKw3

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Monday morning thought .... wondering if the Crimestoppers caller said "Marion who went missing from Northern New South Wales in 1997", or verified a year .... or maybe the call-takers are instructed to get the year of disappearance from the caller .... now that would entirely verify it as a Marion Barter tip .... need to find this out.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Yes Alleycat13, and if you have an illness requiring medication in a lot of these ‘groups’ like Kenja it’s bad luck because they don’t allow you to take any drugs or medicine, as far as I can tell, so maybe that would explain no more doctors visits.

Whoops had to edit using phone, was double quoting and pushing wrong buttons... yikes!

Yes that's true most of those groups promote spiritual- type healing. The fact that Marion didnt access Medicare doesn't necessarily mean she didnt visit a doctor. You can see a doctor without Medicare, it just costs more.

 

[NesssaP]

Came across this article on the Marion Barter Facebook page, just taken a couple of snippets out of it, might help piecing things together .... so the article came out in 1967 when Johnny Warren was 24, so Marion would have been 22. Says they met at a party three years earlier - that would be the Young Liberals Party, hope this helps
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This picture states that she was transferred to work at a Demonstration School in Wagga - which later became Wagga Wagga Public School... It leaves it open to believe that she was already qualified and working as a Teacher - but this could have been a final step in teacher training? In class experience at a Demonstration School in Wagga... in 1967 (the year she married Johnny Warren) Marion would have been 22 years old... at that point, the teaching qualification only took 2 years to complete for Primary School teaching qualifications. So even if she had not attended College straight away - she still could have been well and truly qualified by the age of 22 and may have been one of the Instructing Teachers at the Demonstration School...

But I have searched everywhere and I can't find mention of her at any Teachers College in NSW... I did a search on the teaching register - but considering she let her registration lapse before everything went online - I'm not surprised she is not on there either...

"Demonstration School: A school used to demonstrate educational methods to trainee teachers and provide practice in teaching. From 1928, the term demonstration school replaced the previous term 'practice' school. These schools continue to be ordinary schools with an added demonstration function, and are not specifically designated in the database." Quoted from the "education.nsw.gov.au" website.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

This picture states that she was transferred to work at a Demonstration School in Wagga - which later became Wagga Wagga Public School... It leaves it open to believe that she was already qualified and working as a Teacher - but this could have been a final step in teacher training? In class experience at a Demonstration School in Wagga... in 1967 (the year she married Johnny Warren) Marion would have been 22 years old... at that point, the teaching qualification only took 2 years to complete for Primary School teaching qualifications. So even if she had not attended College straight away - she still could have been well and truly qualified by the age of 22 and may have been one of the Instructing Teachers at the Demonstration School...

But I have searched everywhere and I can't find mention of her at any Teachers College in NSW... I did a search on the teaching register - but considering she let her registration lapse before everything went online - I'm not surprised she is not on there either...

"Demonstration School: A school used to demonstrate educational methods to trainee teachers and provide practice in teaching. From 1928, the term demonstration school replaced the previous term 'practice' school. These schools continue to be ordinary schools with an added demonstration function, and are not specifically designated in the database." Quoted from the "education.nsw.gov.au" website.

Ah, it's becoming like a mystery within a mystery this teacher qualification saga, oh boy. H'mm, not showing up at any teacher's college anywhere .... does seem odd, must be a reason though. So, alleycat13 had a good idea about seeing if Sally could upload a screenshot of Marion's CV on The Lady Vanishes page .... may get a heavily redacted one, hee hee .... so I was thinking maybe just a screenshot of the graduation Certificate/Diploma, that would put all the searching to rest, hey ... if you think it will help in cracking this case would be worth requesting it. I'm not on Facebook, so can't put up posts, but I reckon it's worth a try , any sleuths on Facebook (I can read the posts but can't put up any) Cheers
***Afterthought adding: Marion's father was announced in podcast as Jack McKenzie Wilson - wondering if that could have been a hyphenated surname, maybe Marion was Marion McKenzie-Wilson? Or maybe McKenzie was just the middle name of Jack Wilson, not sure. End of spontaneous afterthought adding.

 

[Mel 1303]

This picture states that she was transferred to work at a Demonstration School in Wagga - which later became Wagga Wagga Public School... It leaves it open to believe that she was already qualified and working as a Teacher - but this could have been a final step in teacher training? In class experience at a Demonstration School in Wagga... in 1967 (the year she married Johnny Warren) Marion would have been 22 years old... at that point, the teaching qualification only took 2 years to complete for Primary School teaching qualifications. So even if she had not attended College straight away - she still could have been well and truly qualified by the age of 22 and may have been one of the Instructing Teachers at the Demonstration School...

But I have searched everywhere and I can't find mention of her at any Teachers College in NSW... I did a search on the teaching register - but considering she let her registration lapse before everything went online - I'm not surprised she is not on there either...

"Demonstration School: A school used to demonstrate educational methods to trainee teachers and provide practice in teaching. From 1928, the term demonstration school replaced the previous term 'practice' school. These schools continue to be ordinary schools with an added demonstration function, and are not specifically designated in the database." Quoted from the "education.nsw.gov.au" website.

Demonstration schools had a big place in teacher training, but they were also working schools, with qualified teachers and real students. Wagga Wagga Demonstration School became Wagga Wagga Public School, Armidale Demonstration School became Armidale City Public School. So she could have had a transfer there, as a qualified teacher- and I can imagine that causing confusion, as many teachers finished their training at the school.
There are no records for students from Armidale Teachers College online. There is a physical archive though- I plan to get there tomorrow afternoon.
BBM- Yes, and John E said that when he met her she had never had a man, not even in college- he hand picked her (I cringed), but that it still took a while for them to get together. She should well and truly have been finished training by 67.

 

[Mel 1303]

Ah, it's becoming like a mystery within a mystery this teacher qualification saga, oh boy. H'mm, not showing up at any teacher's college anywhere .... does seem odd, must be a reason though. So, alleycat13 had a good idea about seeing if Sally could upload a screenshot of Marion's CV on The Lady Vanishes page .... may get a heavily redacted one, hee hee .... so I was thinking maybe just a screenshot of the graduation Certificate/Diploma, that would put all the searching to rest, hey ... if you think it will help in cracking this case would be worth requesting it. I'm not on Facebook, so can't put up posts, but I reckon it's worth a try , any sleuths on Facebook (I can read the posts but can't put up any) Cheers
***Afterthought adding: Marion's father was announced in podcast as Jack McKenzie Wilson - wondering if that could have been a hyphenated surname, maybe Marion was Marion McKenzie-Wilson? Or maybe McKenzie was just the middle name of Jack Wilson, not sure. End of spontaneous afterthought adding.

I think the reference was that she was born to Jack and Colleen McKenzie Wilson. My understanding of that is that Colleen Wilson, Marion's mum, was Colleen McKenzie prior to her marriage.
I'm not keen to post on facebook again. I did once, and my question was deleted- I have been pretty vocal here about that, don't really want to link my personal facebook with my account here. I imagine Marion's CV would list where she graduated, but I don't know if Sally has a copy of that, or it is went into the so far unlocated shipping container.
As for the shipping container, if it wasn't collected by Marion/Florabella, and was held in some kind of storage facility, the contents would have been auctioned off if the storage fees weren't being paid. If that happened, it would have been a public auction. It would be a painful task, but sifting through the classified from the late 90's in the Gold Coast area might identify a public notice regarding such an auction. I personally believe that the shipping container was part of the plan- it could be moved to another location, easily.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I think the reference was that she was born to Jack and Colleen McKenzie Wilson. My understanding of that is that Colleen Wilson, Marion's mum, was Colleen McKenzie prior to her marriage.
I'm not keen to post on facebook again. I did once, and my question was deleted- I have been pretty vocal here about that, don't really want to link my personal facebook with my account here. I imagine Marion's CV would list where she graduated, but I don't know if Sally has a copy of that, or it is went into the so far unlocated shipping container.
As for the shipping container, if it wasn't collected by Marion/Florabella, and was held in some kind of storage facility, the contents would have been auctioned off if the storage fees weren't being paid. If that happened, it would have been a public auction. It would be a painful task, but sifting through the classified from the late 90's in the Gold Coast area might identify a public notice regarding such an auction. I personally believe that the shipping container was part of the plan- it could be moved to another location, easily.

Ah ha! Brilliant, of course, McKenzie was Marion's mother's maiden name .... err, this little sleuth didn't even think of that, haha ... that's it, bravo! Thanks Mel1303. And yes, you're right, your undercover secret sleuthing identity would be blown to smithereens with a Facebook post ... h'mm, so maybe a lurker, mere reader of posts would be happy to ask on Facebook for the certificate screenshot Meanwhile, I bid you good day and successful sleuthing tomorrow at the College.

 

[alleycat13]

If I’m remembering correctly I believe Sally has commented on Facebook stating she still has copies of Marions resumes, which is why she knows it was Wagga Wagga Teachers College that she studied at. But I do think it is odd she isn’t in any of those graduation programs, hmmm. I’d really like to ask on Facebook but I also don’t want to see like I am questioning Marions authenticity or anything, it could be a simple mistake, gosh this is hard

On another thought, there were a few ‘Marions’ listed in those graduation programs and it now has me thinking, could she have possibly, by any chance, been secretly married before Johnny? Therefore taken another last name before him and changed it back before she met him? I know that John Economos stated that she didn’t have a man in college but who knows, we know she could be a little bit secretive about men (guy in the car at maccas drive through). Maybe her parents wouldn’t have approved/didn’t know each other long before they got married. Might be a far fetched idea but did get me thinking!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Today I'm thinking about the Armidale tip off. So, if this crimestoppers tip was to do with Marion, and God forbid that something did happen to her at Armidale in 1997, the paddock that Gary mentioned may not have been a paddock 10 years or so later, let alone now .... so, would need to find a photo of how the area looked in 1997, will have a look around.

If I’m remembering correctly I believe Sally has commented on Facebook stating she still has copies of Marions resumes, which is why she knows it was Wagga Wagga Teachers College that she studied at. But I do think it is odd she isn’t in any of those graduation programs, hmmm. I’d really like to ask on Facebook but I also don’t want to see like I am questioning Marions authenticity or anything, it could be a simple mistake, gosh this is hard

On another thought, there were a few ‘Marions’ listed in those graduation programs and it now has me thinking, could she have possibly, by any chance, been secretly married before Johnny? Therefore taken another last name before him and changed it back before she met him? I know that John Economos stated that she didn’t have a man in college but who knows, we know she could be a little bit secretive about men (guy in the car at maccas drive through). Maybe her parents wouldn’t have approved/didn’t know each other long before they got married. Might be a far fetched idea but did get me thinking!

Yes, good point, maybe better to figure out the education saga yourselves .... nothing wrong with taking the scenic route, just takes a little longer. Interesting theory alleycat, but I can't see Marion having been married before Johnny, it would have been documented somewhere - yes, I did notice a few Marion's in those programs, but they all seemed to have middle names, so not sure if it could have been an error in the programs. Wonder if there were two batches of graduates in different programs, just a thought, don't know really.

 

[alleycat13]

Itaspuzzle, I got the Google Earth program where you can go back to google maps in earlier years, the earliest I could go back to was 2004 I believe and there were some differences around the UNE bike track etc but most of the houses were still there but I couldn’t find out when the farms at the school were set up.

 

[Mel 1303]

Armidale is in my local area- I know it very well. If anyone comes up with anything specific about where Garry searched in Armidale, I would be able to source a lot of local info about that particular area.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Map of Armidale from February 1996 - the print font is lousy, hopefully clearer when you enlarge it. Will compare with map from when search conducted, I think there are some new streets around university.

Itaspuzzle, I got the Google Earth program where you can go back to google maps in earlier years, the earliest I could go back to was 2004 I believe and there were some differences around the UNE bike track etc but most of the houses were still there but I couldn’t find out when the farms at the school were set up.

Hey Alleycat13, can you post the google map up here on websleuths, would be interested to see, no worries if you can't.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Armidale is in my local area- I know it very well. If anyone comes up with anything specific about where Garry searched in Armidale, I would be able to source a lot of local info about that particular area.

There are varying reports regarding the crime stoppers call. Some reports are saying "buried in bushland", then in podcast Gary says "in a paddock."
Bushland : uncultivated land (esp in Australia) that is covered with trees, shrubs, or other natural vegetation.
Paddock: "An enclosed piece of land, paddock . A small enclosure or field of grassland, especially for horses. (Australia, New Zealand) A field of grassland of any size, especially for keeping sheep or cattle.
H'mm, bushland and paddock, quite different.

 

[alleycat13]

I can’t figure out a way to post it without it being really blurry I’ve tried everything but everytime I save/screengrab it gets super unclear. Not very helpful sorry!

I’m regards to the tip, I know Gary says in a paddock but when I shared a comment on the Facebook page about perhaps being near the farms on the UNE campus, it might have jogged Sally’s memory somewhat. I’ll share her reply word for word here:

“Hi ally I think Gary said a paddock in his interview but he told me at the time they said near the uni, then later he mentioned the bike track was were they went. Hard when he always calls me too not email so I’m not able keep a good clear record of the conversations I’ve had. I’m expected to remember it all from brief bouts of phone conversations- very difficult to manage, but I do my best x”

If you follow this link (Our Farms - University of New England (UNE)) and scroll down to ‘Location of Farms’, zoom into Armidale and the ‘Trevenna’ farm, that’s where I was focussing because there is quite a large bike track attached to UNE also which I thought was interesting after what Sally said. Paddock, Bike Track and near the Uni..

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I can’t figure out a way to post it without it being really blurry I’ve tried everything but everytime I save/screengrab it gets super unclear. Not very helpful sorry!

I’m regards to the tip, I know Gary says in a paddock but when I shared a comment on the Facebook page about perhaps being near the farms on the UNE campus, it might have jogged Sally’s memory somewhat. I’ll share her reply word for word here:

“Hi ally I think Gary said a paddock in his interview but he told me at the time they said near the uni, then later he mentioned the bike track was were they went. Hard when he always calls me too not email so I’m not able keep a good clear record of the conversations I’ve had. I’m expected to remember it all from brief bouts of phone conversations- very difficult to manage, but I do my best x”

If you follow this link (Our Farms - University of New England (UNE)) and scroll down to ‘Location of Farms’, zoom into Armidale and the ‘Trevenna’ farm, that’s where I was focussing because there is quite a large bike track attached to UNE also which I thought was interesting after what Sally said. Paddock, Bike Track and near the Uni..

Completely wonderful, thanks Alley .... h'mm, so that really narrows things down, doesn't it ... near university and bike track ..... will do some research ...Trevanna farm, will check it out ... I am indebted to my learned sleuth, if Your Honour pleases

 

[Mel 1303]

I can’t figure out a way to post it without it being really blurry I’ve tried everything but everytime I save/screengrab it gets super unclear. Not very helpful sorry!

I’m regards to the tip, I know Gary says in a paddock but when I shared a comment on the Facebook page about perhaps being near the farms on the UNE campus, it might have jogged Sally’s memory somewhat. I’ll share her reply word for word here:

“Hi ally I think Gary said a paddock in his interview but he told me at the time they said near the uni, then later he mentioned the bike track was were they went. Hard when he always calls me too not email so I’m not able keep a good clear record of the conversations I’ve had. I’m expected to remember it all from brief bouts of phone conversations- very difficult to manage, but I do my best x”

If you follow this link (Our Farms - University of New England (UNE)) and scroll down to ‘Location of Farms’, zoom into Armidale and the ‘Trevenna’ farm, that’s where I was focussing because there is quite a large bike track attached to UNE also which I thought was interesting after what Sally said. Paddock, Bike Track and near the Uni..

There is a bike track that goes from town to the university. It runs roughly along Dumaresq creek. Towards une, there is a public housing estate, then some empty paddock space, before a university residential campus. There is a bypass of the town that goes through that area- it opened in 1994. There is clear land in that area of the bike track, with easy access to adjoining paddocks. Some have since been built up. There is a subdivision around Martin st where soil contamination was found, and the estate abandoned in 93. After remediation, it was sold off in 2003 and further development commenced. Near the une and the bike track.
Martin St subdivison sells for $2.17m
There are lots of areas around there that are not too busy. There is one big section, where there is now a technology centre, that would have been pretty clear open paddocks then.
I will go on the weekend and take some pics, and identify for you all what is newer than 2002. If Garry searched a paddock near the bike track and the uni that reduces things significantly.