Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Itsapuzzle]

Hang on, was just thinking, this tip said "Marion who went missing from northern NSW" ... so Marion was living in Ashmore Queensland, worked at Southport Queensland ... how did they know Marion's last 'movements/whereabouts' were in northern NSW, Byron Bay, Grafton? Where Marion 'lived' was not northern NSW, as far as I can tell. If her disappearance was never reported in the media or press before 2002, as has been stated, that's also pretty interesting.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Hang on, was just thinking, this tip said "Marion who went missing from northern NSW" ... so Marion was living in Ashmore Queensland, worked at Southport Queensland ... how did they know Marion's last 'movements/whereabouts' were in northern NSW, Byron Bay, Grafton? Where Marion 'lived' was not northern NSW, as far as I can tell. If her disappearance was never reported in the media or press before 2002, as has been stated, that's also pretty interesting.

Yes that's a good point Itsapuzzel. I know we dont have an exact transcript of the call but for me the words used are really interesting. He says words to the effect of 'the Marion who went missing from northern NSW'.

The fact he doesnt use a surname suggests he either doesnt know what her surname was (or which surname she was using at the time) or he felt the case was well known enough that the person receiving the call would know what he was talking about.
The use of the location as a descriptive (missing from Nthn NSW) is also interesting because it suggests the caller believes the location is informative, that it clarifies which Marion he is talking about. Interesting that the caller felt the location was more informative than the surname - unless of course that's all he knew?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Apologies for the morbid imagery. If the tip is true and indeed about our Marion, is it not curious that a lifelong teacher was buried at the back of a place of learning? For the super sleuths out there, I wonder if there is a connection between any teachers or staff at TSS and those at the University of New England? I mean, there is the potential that this incident has relevance to the alleged abuse going on at TSS and wider education sector... could Marion have known too much?

It would explain a lot. I wonder though, if Marion disappeared because she felt she was in danger why return to nearby Byron?
Marion's issues at TSS seem to be more about what she was being accused of more so than her having information about others. The woman who supervised Marion said there were some issues over her teaching methods. If Marion really did smack a student as her teacher aide suggested you'd expect the school to address this. Perhaps the abuse Marion was talking about being accused of was physical abuse (hitting a child).

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Re the call about a "Marion going missing from northern New South Wales.
I started to wonder if there were any Mariannes or Mary Anns missing or a Marian.
The only one I came up with was a Mary Ann from near Perth.
What if he meant a Marianne or a Mary Ann, or a Marian and they were never known to be missing.

 

[Mel 1303]

Teachers College. I have again emailed the journalist who wrote the article in the Armidale Express, which has been the catalyst for all the conjecture over these past months with regard to where Marion studied.

Marion was born in 1945. https://7news.com.au/original-fyi/t...line-of-marion-barters-disappearance-c-200848

In 1960, to qualify as a teacher in NSW, you needed to study for two years at a teachers college, which was run by the Department of Education. I believe you had to be 15 to commence study, but for the sake of argument, I have gone back to when Marion would have been 13. If she left school, and did two years at teachers college, she would have graduated in 1960. In 1968 (the year after Marion was married, which is implied happened after graduation), there was a change in the requirements, and a student had to study for three years, instead of two, to qualify as a teacher. https://education.nsw.gov.au/about-...ols/media/documents/teachers_education_AA.pdf As a result, there is not a graduating class in 1969. Students enrolling in 1967 knew about this- they enrolled in the three year course. Again, for the sake of argument, I have included up to 1970, just in case, when Marion would have been 25 and already married and divorced. Feel free to double check (please!!), but I cannot find a Marion Wilson, Marion Warren, Marion Brown or Marion Barter in any of the Wagga Wagga teachers college graduation programmes. I guess she could have been accidently left out- which would be a huge coincidence, years later, when there is conjecture about where she studied.

Wagga Wagga Teachers College Graduation Programmes
1960 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/7e015bbbf7d8ee87188b4e49be23f744.pdf
1961 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/db6175044f750192c04f1fa9f21c7550.pdf
1962 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/9cd942be988e57b6754bb6805cd75053.pdf
1963 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/f3b428aa45c5ee2ef5521f0d29ba54b1.pdf
1964 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/9fe6c75897272ceb19d0618456737446.pdf
1965 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/da9527df3e35038a55934f781cef6c2e.pdf
1966 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/a353d8b78d266d9ed4c6b859ad137bd6.pdf
1967 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/029e9f57e027ade53ee77c33d9299820.pdf
1968 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/3075506d71a22cc668a033e35afa65e1.pdf
1970 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/89053699e4246bfe30811aa67f41ebcf.pdf

I am not suggesting that Marion did not train as a teacher, but there is something here not adding up.

 

[JLZ]

Teachers College. I have again emailed the journalist who wrote the article in the Armidale Express, which has been the catalyst for all the conjecture over these past months with regard to where Marion studied.

Marion was born in 1945. https://7news.com.au/original-fyi/t...line-of-marion-barters-disappearance-c-200848

In 1960, to qualify as a teacher in NSW, you needed to study for two years at a teachers college, which was run by the Department of Education. I believe you had to be 15 to commence study, but for the sake of argument, I have gone back to when Marion would have been 13. If she left school, and did two years at teachers college, she would have graduated in 1960. In 1968 (the year after Marion was married, which is implied happened after graduation), there was a change in the requirements, and a student had to study for three years, instead of two, to qualify as a teacher. https://education.nsw.gov.au/about-...ols/media/documents/teachers_education_AA.pdf As a result, there is not a graduating class in 1969. Students enrolling in 1967 knew about this- they enrolled in the three year course. Again, for the sake of argument, I have included up to 1970, just in case, when Marion would have been 25 and already married and divorced. Feel free to double check (please!!), but I cannot find a Marion Wilson, Marion Warren, Marion Brown or Marion Barter in any of the Wagga Wagga teachers college graduation programmes. I guess she could have been accidently left out- which would be a huge coincidence, years later, when there is conjecture about where she studied.

Wagga Wagga Teachers College Graduation Programmes
1960 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/7e015bbbf7d8ee87188b4e49be23f744.pdf
1961 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/db6175044f750192c04f1fa9f21c7550.pdf
1962 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/9cd942be988e57b6754bb6805cd75053.pdf
1963 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/f3b428aa45c5ee2ef5521f0d29ba54b1.pdf
1964 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/9fe6c75897272ceb19d0618456737446.pdf
1965 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/da9527df3e35038a55934f781cef6c2e.pdf
1966 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/a353d8b78d266d9ed4c6b859ad137bd6.pdf
1967 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/029e9f57e027ade53ee77c33d9299820.pdf
1968 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/3075506d71a22cc668a033e35afa65e1.pdf
1970 https://csuregarch.intersect.org.au/files/original/89053699e4246bfe30811aa67f41ebcf.pdf

I am not suggesting that Marion did not train as a teacher, but there is something here not adding up.

Is it possible that Marion graduated without taking part in a graduation ceremony and that is why her name is not included in these records?

 

[Mel 1303]

Is it possible that Marion graduated without taking part in a graduation ceremony and that is why her name is not included in these records?

Maybe. When I graduated it had everyones name in the graduating class. I will email and ask.

 

[JLZ]

Maybe. When I graduated it had everyones name in the graduating class. I will email and ask.

Is it known at what age Marion began teaching? I was thinking--she might have done the bulk of her studying at Wagga Wagga when young but not taken the qualification there, perhaps being a subject short due to failure or deciding to get married instead. Then got credit for those studies and took the diploma or degree at another institution years later when she needed to start working.

 

[kbk]

What is the earliest reference to Marion teaching that we can find?

Marion tought at the Sussex Inlet Primary School in 1985, can anyone find anything earlier?

 

[kbk]

Is it known at what age Marion began teaching? I was thinking--she might have done the bulk of her studying at Wagga Wagga when young but not taken the qualification there, perhaps being a subject short due to failure or deciding to get married instead. Then got credit for those studies and took the diploma or degree at another institution years later when she needed to start working.

This is what I was thinking - she started studying before her first marriage but didn't finish until during her second marriage perhaps?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Just regarding all your queries about Marion's college education, in one of the Conversation episodes Sally mentions that she still has her mother's CV, the information would all be there in black and white. Just my thoughts, but I'd say she's 100 per cent qualified as she had a lot of teaching jobs over the years, would have had to present certificates, etc, for all teaching positions, and there must be some logical explanation why her name is not in the graduation programs above.
This is mentioned in Episode 2 at about (12.04), this is Johnny Warren's best mate talking:
".... I can't remember the year, it was either '61, or '62, '63, she was a former school friend of my first girlfriend who I used to work with. Anyhow, I went to a Young Liberal Party and Marion was there on her own listening to records in the lounge room. And my girlfriend said 'I went to school with that girl .... "
And talking about Marion again here:
" ..... she had no partner ever, ever, while she was at college."

 

[NesssaP]

Hang on, was just thinking, this tip said "Marion who went missing from northern NSW" ... so Marion was living in Ashmore Queensland, worked at Southport Queensland ... how did they know Marion's last 'movements/whereabouts' were in northern NSW, Byron Bay, Grafton? Where Marion 'lived' was not northern NSW, as far as I can tell. If her disappearance was never reported in the media or press before 2002, as has been stated, that's also pretty interesting.

This was my train of thought as well... IF this this tip was regarding Marion Barter - it holds a lot of sway that the tipster knew more than an average stranger would have known about her and her situation at the time of her disappearance... and also it would appear that the tipster was unaware of the name change at that point in time also... Does anyone know exactly when the tip actually came through to Crimestoppers?

 

[alleycat13]

This was my train of thought as well... IF this this tip was regarding Marion Barter - it holds a lot of sway that the tipster knew more than an average stranger would have known about her and her situation at the time of her disappearance... and also it would appear that the tipster was unaware of the name change at that point in time also... Does anyone know exactly when the tip actually came through to Crimestoppers?

I believe we only know that the tip came in 2002 and it wasn’t followed up until 2010, as Gary took over the case in 2009.
I also agree though, it would have to be someone who knew the family on some level I think!

 

[kbk]

Did the tip come through in 2002 or was that the year that Marions son/Sallys brother passed away?

I can't remember why I'm remembering 2002 as significant..

Thinking about the crimestoppers call.

There's another Marion (Sandford) on the NSW missing persons register. She went missing from Sydney's northern shores (Cammeray) in 1980. On the missing person register it says that Marion's Sandfords disappearance was investigated in connection with two other missing women in 2002. Perhaps it was this new avenue of investigation that generated the crimestoppers phone call in 2002 and the call relates to Marion Sandford not Marion Barter.

I think this is the most probable case

 

[alleycat13]

As I said above, the tip came in 2002.
Owen passed March 7th of 2002 also.

On another thought, if Marion met Johnny’s friend at that young liberals party, the party was in Oyster Bay which is like 5 hours away from Wagga - now I’m starting to doubt she was studying at the teaching college at that time, perhaps she had just graduated and that’s why he made the comment about her not having a partner the whole time she was at college? Or perhaps as someone else said, maybe she did some study at Wagga and then the rest of her study elsewhere?
Wish we had more definite timelines, maybe we could ask Sally if she would upload a photo of her resume or confirm some dates?

 

[alleycat13]

Sorry guys, another random thought..

I wonder what month the tip was called in. If we’re right and the tipster knew the family or maybe had a friend of a friend who knew the family, could it have been Owens suicide that sparked the tip in the first place? Maybe the tipster thought Owens suicide may have had something to do with his Mum being missing and felt guilt over the information he was holding onto.

Something to think about at least.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

As I said above, the tip came in 2002.
Owen passed March 7th of 2002 also.

On another thought, if Marion met Johnny’s friend at that young liberals party, the party was in Oyster Bay which is like 5 hours away from Wagga - now I’m starting to doubt she was studying at the teaching college at that time, perhaps she had just graduated and that’s why he made the comment about her not having a partner the whole time she was at college? Or perhaps as someone else said, maybe she did some study at Wagga and then the rest of her study elsewhere?
Wish we had more definite timelines, maybe we could ask Sally if she would upload a photo of her resume or confirm some dates?

Came across this article on the Marion Barter Facebook page, just taken a couple of snippets out of it, might help piecing things together .... so the article came out in 1967 when Johnny Warren was 24, so Marion would have been 22. Says they met at a party three years earlier - that would be the Young Liberals Party, hope this helps

 

[Itsapuzzle]

***Whoops, need to make a correction to my previous post .... this is just me being pedantic .... so Johnny Warren's best mate met Marion at the young liberal party three years earlier, but Johnny wasn't there at the time, he was introduced to Marion at another party .... pedantic hey, but gotta get it right

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Spontaneous dinner-time cooking thoughts .... have noted that John E said in the podcast that Marion had a nervous breakdown when the marriage to Johnny Warren ended. Now, there was also a mention in the podcast that a colleague of Marion’s thought Marion had a nervous breakdown when it was revealed that the pilot was getting married. Do we know when that was, as in year, month? I feel that’s important. It would indicate Marion’s fragile state and the possibility of seeking some help ... yep, still thinking of something like Kenja, or something along those lines, that she may have sought some guidance, help. Does anyone know? Oooh, dinner is ready ....

 

[alleycat13]

To sort of add onto your Kenja theory, I had a thought that she may have even been sick..
I remember a part from the podcast and is also in this article here which is a good article for a refresher on some info (PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.) that she made some comments about wanting to "remember" people. For example she takes a photo of a friend and says so "I can remember you" and wants to have dinner at Sally's and says "I want to remember you in your house". I thought they could be construed as comments from a sick/dying person. What if she was sick and wanted to travel one last time and didn't want to "burden" her kids with her sickness or death. It would mean she was a bit naive in thinking that her kids would assume this instead of assuming she was missing but the comments just strike me as odd in that way.

Just a late night rambling thought