Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Itsapuzzle]

Frau Remakel ..... h'mm, that's interesting ... German

 

[Garyb]

Again very little in the latest episode just lots of filling in. Ita Buttrose , what was that all about.

Nothing about the magazine found in a library in the US.

Good to know about the flight details now being Cathay from Hong Kong. Also the pilot being with that airline and possibly in HK at the time. I still think it was possible to have made the flight to Australia after the last phone call but it wpuld have to have been from at or near Heathrow, but could have been Hong Kong.

Frau Remakel may have also been flora if it was hard to read. Marion had a very destinctive face particularly around the eyes and top of her nose, cant imagine customs having trouble ensuring it was actually her.

 

[StarrChance]

The most important piece of information to me was the handwriting comparison of the flight card. A professional well known expert who has never been challenged in court believes it is her handwriting! This is really important, assuming it was Marion then the rest falls into place that is was her at the bank. That is was just glossed over was very strange, perhaps it doesn’t fit the narrative of a imposter.
Also agree too much of a coincidence with the pilot, airline and Hong Kong.

 

[KiwiNZ]

They didn't want to play up the fact the "pilot" lived in HK at the time and flew for CP. wonder if the Remakel handling and backlash (legal) was they reason they seem to play it down. Bizarrely they seemed respectful of the fact he didn't want to talk, but don't give the same respect to Mr Remakel or Suzy Cooper. IMO its more coincidental than the link to Fernand Remakel.

 

[KiwiNZ]

They raised if Marion could have been married while in the UK … you can not marry in the UK while on a holiday visa.

 

[thunderwombat]

I'm about 18 minutes in to the new episode and Brian, talking to Sally, says "the investigation into your mother's death". Hold on, have I missed something? I didn't listen to the most recent Conversation episode, has it been established that Marion/Florabella is deceased?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Again very little in the latest episode just lots of filling in. Ita Buttrose , what was that all about.

Nothing about the magazine found in a library in the US.

Good to know about the flight details now being Cathay from Hong Kong. Also the pilot being with that airline and possibly in HK at the time. I still think it was possible to have made the flight to Australia after the last phone call but it wpuld have to have been from at or near Heathrow, but could have been Hong Kong.

Frau Remakel may have also been flora if it was hard to read. Marion had a very destinctive face particularly around the eyes and top of her nose, cant imagine customs having trouble ensuring it was actually her.

Good point about Frau/Flora it doesnt make any sense to say you live in Luxembourg and use a German pronoun.

A lot was made of it not being possible to have made the call on the 1st and arrive in Aust on the 2nd (why ask Ita?) Ironically Brain quotes Occams Razor in suggesting that someone other than Marion returned to Australia but surely the simplest answer is that Sally is mistaken about the date she received the call? I wonder if that phone record has been checked?

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I'm about 18 minutes in to the new episode and Brian, talking to Sally, says "the investigation into your mother's death". Hold on, have I missed something? I didn't listen to the most recent Conversation episode, has it been established that Marion/Florabella is deceased?

It is very confusing because they keep referring to the coronors inquest.. this will happen if there is a firm likelihood Marion is dead, not as I understand it with actual finding of a body or any firm proof like that.

I checked findmypast and certainly no marriages in the UK under the name Marion barter in 1997 or under the name remakel. Unless she went on somewhere else to marry and the UK was only part of her trip. But I think all her flight records would have been tracked down in the searches that have been made.

Also no news of the article found in Los Angeles? One of the main things they went on about and how big and interesting it was in last conversations. I understand the need for info is only able to be released if it not going to jeopardise investigation but they could at least have said... We apologise but... We are not at liberty to divulge at this time due to such and such, we know we mentioned this previously... But no mention at all. If they can't divulge or didn't intend to in that episode why bang on and on and work people up saying how revealing it is? That really is trying to boost ratings by making our there is this big shocker, then leaving it unsaid. Its not fair to jeopardise the investigation but its not fair to work up listeners either a lot of whom are actually listening because they genuinely want to help.

I would also agree they played down the handwriting judgement. OK he did say is subjective but he is an expert in that field. I think it was Marion on the flight. I recall she rang Sally worried about her after thredbo disaster. Perhaps then she was already planning to let people think she was remaining in England and quietly sneak back in for whatever reason. Because of thredbo she had to call to make sure Sally was OK, but may not have wanted her to know at that time she was heading back. So I think she was elsewhere when she rang. Because they have no evidence the call itself was from Tunbridge Wells. She said she couldn't stay on long and had been having tea with some old ladies. She probably didn't have much time because she was waiting to board a flight she didn't want Sally to know about. Did she not call her son too? I know he passed on now, but because of this we know very little and as much as we know is we have no reason to believe she did ring him too. She had to ring Sally because whatever else she was doing... Even if boarding a flight she wanted nobody to know about, she had to do it to put her mind at rest her daughter was safe. It just so happened the first chance she got to do that landed on the day she had booked a flight back. I am not sure she would have rang Sally at all had it not been for thredbo. So I think she just lied and said she was in Tunbridge Wells still. I am assuming Sally only remembers time of call due to memory or does she have some physical record?

And they don't want to bother the son of the pilot or the pilot himself? People they know for definite knew Marion. But remakel who could be innocent and a complete victim in all of this gets hounded. I have lost a lot of respect with the podcast tonight tbh. I usually don't let the political stuff bother me, but after the psyching up they did for this episode in conversations 17 it really was a let down.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

The most important piece of information to me was the handwriting comparison of the flight card. A professional well known expert who has never been challenged in court believes it is her handwriting! This is really important, assuming it was Marion then the rest falls into place that is was her at the bank. That is was just glossed over was very strange, perhaps it doesn’t fit the narrative of a imposter.
Also agree too much of a coincidence with the pilot, airline and Hong Kong.

The hand writing part was odd. They go to the trouble of stating the expert (who says it was Marion who completed the card) hasnt ever been challenged in court but then immediately say Sally doesnt think all the writing on the card is her Mums.
I think it's also unusual the comparison handwriting given the expert to review was the letters Marion sent while she was away. If the passenger card is in doubt, would the letters not be in doubt too?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

They didn't want to play up the fact the "pilot" lived in HK at the time and flew for CP. wonder if the Remakel handling and backlash (legal) was they reason they seem to play it down. Bizarrely they seemed respectful of the fact he didn't want to talk, but don't give the same respect to Mr Remakel or Suzy Cooper. IMO its more coincidental than the link to Fernand Remakel.

A much more likely candidate than poor Ferdinand!!

They mention Mr Pilot's son being "concerned" about talking to them. Sounds to me like Mr Pilot and Pilot Jnr have threatened legal action. Cant blame them after Fernands treatment.

I dont think the pilots ex-wife's opinion on whether the pilot would be attracted to Marion is neccessary or even valid. She was separated from the pilot prior to their son being taught by Marion and hasnt spoken to him in nearly 30 years. Marion had several younger partners perhaps he was one of them??

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I should have said... No marriage records under remakel or florabella or Marion barter the year 1997, when I clicked on the worldwide option on findmypast. Legally a record would have to be somewhere so, frau she may have called herself but based on records no evidence of any marriage in either of her names.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

It is very confusing because they keep referring to the coronors inquest.. this will happen if there is a firm likelihood Marion is dead, not as I understand it with actual finding of a body or any firm proof like that.

Generally an inquest is held once the police have exhausted all avenues of investigation (missing person/death/suspected death) but are unable to determine what happened.

The coroner reviews the police file and makes a ruling - are they dead, when did they die, the manner of death (I.e. suicide) - or they may record an open finding which means there isnt enough information to make conclusions.

Edited to include. If the brief of evidence presented by police shows any evidence Marion is alive then the inquest will be declined

 

[Jo3]

Here are Johnny and Marion Warren's incoming passenger cards from Feb 1969 which state that they have spent 6 months away form Australia.

 

[Jo3]

D
Do we know if the handwriting experts compared the 1997 incoming card to these?they also seem to be in upper case capitals. Brian said he would post card on FB.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I was eagerly waiting for the part about the American magazine, but nothing at all

Did anyone else get very low volume for awhile there, when Brian was talking to Sally?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Good point about Frau/Flora it doesnt make any sense to say you live in Luxembourg and use a German pronoun.

A lot was made of it not being possible to have made the call on the 1st and arrive in Aust on the 2nd (why ask Ita?) Ironically Brain quotes Occams Razor in suggesting that someone other than Marion returned to Australia but surely the simplest answer is that Sally is mistaken about the date she received the call? I wonder if that phone record has been checked?

Luxembourgish

wife - Fra
Women - Fraen

Also German is commonly used in Luxembourg, they said most of the press in written in German.

 

[Mel 1303]

A few thoughts.

Marion didn't suddenly quit her job. She was telling everyone that she was going over seas- Chris and Sally were helping her pack the house. She has sold the house. She gave 4 weeks notice, as required- the last week of term then the three weeks of holidays. I don't think giving four weeks notice is in any way unusual at all, and the fact she was going overseas was hardly a secret.

To compare the paddocks alongside the bike track between town and the UNE in Armidale (fairly flat, open cleared land along the creek) with the dense bushland of the royal national park is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Mel 1303]

Also- the giving away of her precious belongings- we don't know where they are. They may well be have been transported at the time to wherever Marion was going.

 

[Garyb]

Good point about Frau/Flora it doesnt make any sense to say you live in Luxembourg and use a German pronoun.

A lot was made of it not being possible to have made the call on the 1st and arrive in Aust on the 2nd (why ask Ita?) Ironically Brain quotes Occams Razor in suggesting that someone other than Marion returned to Australia but surely the simplest answer is that Sally is mistaken about the date she received the call? I wonder if that phone record has been checked?

If you follow the time in the UK when Thredbo would have been on the news, the attempted phone call then the successful one. it fits perfectly with a logical sequence of missing Sally in the Morning Aust time then catching her that evening which would make it the 31st not the 1st of August. Therefore i think Sally has the wrong date. If she was anxious to check on sallys safety why wait an additional 24 hours? Unless she was on here way back and stopped over in Hong Kong.
I dont like the idea she would have rung in transit due to the noise of flight bourding and departures. She also wouldn't have the coins for the phone, which i suspect would have been credit card only anyway.

 

[KiwiNZ]

The hand writing part was odd. They go to the trouble of stating the expert (who says it was Marion who completed the card) hasnt ever been challenged in court but then immediately say Sally doesnt think all the writing on the card is her Mums.
I think it's also unusual the comparison handwriting given the expert to review was the letters Marion sent while she was away. If the passenger card is in doubt, would the letters not be in doubt too?

I felt they could have compared it to the other returning residency visa cards she completed on previous trips.