Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Sophie-Renee]

I won't upload anything here yet, as gets a bit confusing, but through Gordon Robert Stocks I have found a 1958 electoral roll (presumably from ealier than the Belmore entry) that shows him in the subdivision of Rozelle- at same address as a Florence Isabella Stocks- one can only presume she in fact changed her name by deed poll in that year by merging her two names together.

Also found that after Marion divorced Johnny Warren in 1971 (my mistake saying 1969- sorry!) she then is listed in 1972 at an address on Baumans Road- a 3 minute drive from Wattle Street. So at the very least she was in the Peakhurst neighbourhood by the time Florabella Stocks had moved into the area.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

It has been mentioned that Florabella Street in Warimoo, is home to the local primary school. It also straddles the Florabella Pass that runs between Warimoo and Blaxland. The pass seems to run very near also to Blaxland Public School. I know Marion probably didn't teach at either of these schools, but if she lived in the region she was likely familiar with at least the name of the Florabella Pass. She may have taken walks in the area and the name stuck with her.

I also read that the author of 'Blinky Bill' lived near Florabella pass and was inspiration for her writing.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I won't upload anything here yet, as gets a bit confusing, but through Gordon Robert Stocks I have found a 1958 electoral roll (presumably from ealier than the Belmore entry) that shows him in the subdivision of Rozelle- at same address as a Florence Isabella Stocks- one can only presume she in fact changed her name by deed poll in that year by merging her two names together.

Also found that after Marion divorced Johnny Warren in 1971 (my mistake saying 1969- sorry!) she then is listed in 1972 at an address on Baumans Road- a 3 minute drive from Wattle Street. So at the very least she was in the Peakhurst neighbourhood by the time Florabella Stocks had moved into the area.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I meant to say, I didn't even know Marion had lived in Peakhurst herself. I only know she was born in Marrickville, which just goes to show we know very little about her early life, before marriage. Unless this was discussed very early on in the podcast and I maybe missed it..

Florabella Stocks was certainly still in Belmore in 1968-(wish I could find out her age!) but, between then and 1972 she moved across to Peakhurst herself which is definetely interesting. I will need to look again at Marion's timeline to compare both their movements.

So we know Marion was living in Peakhurst in 1966. Marion met Stuart through Stuart Brown's sister who was the Deputy Principal at Peakhurst South Primary School. Marion was transferred to Peakhurst South Primary School from a school in Narwee. There is mention of her lovely home in Mortdale Heights too.
Marion moved to Queensland in 1975. Seems to have been in Springwood in the Blue Mountains from 1977 to '79. Then moved to Lapstone in the Blue Mountains (it sounds like on the podcast).
I find the name Florabella interesting, it'd be pretty rare back then, rare like the Remakel name, just the Peakhurst connection is curious, so there might be something there from the past, a family connection, neighbour, friend ....

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I also read that the author of 'Blinky Bill' lived near Florabella pass and was inspiration for her writing.

Hey, that's interesting Intriguedbyintrigue

 

[KiwiNZ]

This is interesting .... and is that a typo??
View attachment 220325

excuse my ignorance, I am not sure what this is … is it a document confirming an agency has requested information on this person ? If so I assume its to do with the inquest and if so you kind of hope they haven't asked for the incorrect name to be searched.

also imagine if this is the spelling she used rather than Remakel, and they have been chasing the wrong lead (Fernand) all this time. Although you would hope the police would have stopped that line of harassment long ago if they had the incorrect name.

 

[thunderwombat]

I won't upload anything here yet, as gets a bit confusing, but through Gordon Robert Stocks I have found a 1958 electoral roll (presumably from ealier than the Belmore entry) that shows him in the subdivision of Rozelle- at same address as a Florence Isabella Stocks- one can only presume she in fact changed her name by deed poll in that year by merging her two names together.

The 1958 electoral roll name must be a transcription error as she is Florabella Hazel Stocks before and after. Did a bit of Trove-ing and NSW BDM-ing and found that her maiden name was Despoges, she married Gordon Stocks in 1956 in Marrickville and that her mother's name was also Florabella (nee Williams). The mother, Florabella Despoges died 1950, her death notice has her living 306 Victoria Rd Marrickville, her daughter in the notice is referred to by her middle name of Hazel.

I wont annoy people here with my lack of knowledge about Sydney suburbs, but Earlwood (Marion's maternal grandparents) Marrickville and Peakhurst are close together. The Despoges go back earlier in Marrickville. In none of the electoral rolls for Gordon and Florabella Stocks are any third person that could be a child of theirs, and I haven't found any death notice for either of them.

Florabella is such an incredibly rare name in NSW, on the BDM index the only two marriages (up to 1969) are for the ones I mentioned, of the 2 in the death index (goes up to 1989) one is for Florabella Despoges, and no births at all (index up to 1919).

 

[Garyb]

Interestingly the facebook page seems to have taken down the post about a new episode before christmas.

Anything to do with the NCAT decision which was to be out by today? I wonder.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Interestingly the facebook page seems to have taken down the post about a new episode before christmas.

Anything to do with the NCAT decision which was to be out by today? I wonder.

I can still see it ? at the top of the facebook page

 

[Garyb]

I can still see it ? at the top of the facebook page

Yes it is definitely there, no idea what happened. I must be going crazy.

Sorry for misleading people.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

The 1958 electoral roll name must be a transcription error as she is Florabella Hazel Stocks before and after. Did a bit of Trove-ing and NSW BDM-ing and found that her maiden name was Despoges, she married Gordon Stocks in 1956 in Marrickville and that her mother's name was also Florabella (nee Williams). The mother, Florabella Despoges died 1950, her death notice has her living 306 Victoria Rd Marrickville, her daughter in the notice is referred to by her middle name of Hazel.

I wont annoy people here with my lack of knowledge about Sydney suburbs, but Earlwood (Marion's maternal grandparents) Marrickville and Peakhurst are close together. The Despoges go back earlier in Marrickville. In none of the electoral rolls for Gordon and Florabella Stocks are any third person that could be a child of theirs, and I haven't found any death notice for either of them.

Florabella is such an incredibly rare name in NSW, on the BDM index the only two marriages (up to 1969) are for the ones I mentioned, of the 2 in the death index (goes up to 1989) one is for Florabella Despoges, and no births at all (index up to 1919).

Interesting you made that connection. I came across that Florabella Despoges and ruled her out as I could see she was married, died in 1950 so could not have been the Florabella who lived near Marion. I never made connection she was her mother though- the earliest record I found for Florabella Stocks was the 1958 census. No births, no earlier electoral rolls so that's why I assumed the name change. That was ancestry and Findmypast though- I had found no marriage certificates. I might look at that NSW site.

The Marrickville connection is interesting. So as Florabella Stocks goes- she must have been born post 1919 and am guessing if a death, then post 1989 because I am sure I did find another Florabella (not Stocks) who died in the 1970s, that would account for the 2nd death record.

Thanks for all that great sleuthing!

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Interesting that Marion- born in 1945 in Marrickville would have been 5 when Florabella Despoges died-who's daughter was not married until 1956 (when Marion was 11). Possibly living with her mother before then in Marrickville?

We know Florabella the 1st was living on Victoria Road, do we know of an address for Marion and her parents when she was a child in Marrickville? Too much of a coincidence if it was also Victoria Road!

 

[thunderwombat]

...I am sure I did find another Florabella (not Stocks) who died in the 1970s, that would account for the 2nd death record.

I should have added it, I got lazy. The second one was Florabella Laws died Sydney 1970

 

[Sophie-Renee]

The 1958 electoral roll name must be a transcription error as she is Florabella Hazel Stocks before and after. Did a bit of Trove-ing and NSW BDM-ing and found that her maiden name was Despoges, she married Gordon Stocks in 1956 in Marrickville and that her mother's name was also Florabella (nee Williams). The mother, Florabella Despoges died 1950, her death notice has her living 306 Victoria Rd Marrickville, her daughter in the notice is referred to by her middle name of Hazel.

I wont annoy people here with my lack of knowledge about Sydney suburbs, but Earlwood (Marion's maternal grandparents) Marrickville and Peakhurst are close together. The Despoges go back earlier in Marrickville. In none of the electoral rolls for Gordon and Florabella Stocks are any third person that could be a child of theirs, and I haven't found any death notice for either of them.

Florabella is such an incredibly rare name in NSW, on the BDM index the only two marriages (up to 1969) are for the ones I mentioned, of the 2 in the death index (goes up to 1989) one is for Florabella Despoges, and no births at all (index up to 1919).

The problem with using the electoral roll for finding out if they have a child is that is will only list those who are old enough to vote. Electoral rolls won't list them unless they have signed up to their right to vote. Censuses are different because they will list anyone living in the property at that time and it is a legal obligation to do so. But they only become available to view properly after 100 years.

 

[thunderwombat]

....Too much of a coincidence if it was also Victoria Road!

Not quite! Marion's parents John Mackenzie and Colleen Wilson's address in 1949 was 58 Canonbury Grove Dulwich Hill which is a 4 minute drive from Victoria Rd, according to Google maps. They don't appear on the electoral roll again until 1958 when their address is Drummond Rd Oyster Bay, so where they lived in those 9 years, I don't know.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Not quite! Marion's parents John Mackenzie and Colleen Wilson's address in 1949 was 58 Canonbury Grove Dulwich Hill which is a 4 minute drive from Victoria Rd, according to Google maps. They don't appear on the electoral roll again until 1958 when their address is Drummond Rd Oyster Bay, so where they lived in those 9 years, I don't know.

The Wilson family moved to Queensland when Marion was 4 or 5 and lived at Wellington Point near Brisbane for the early part of the 1950s. They returned to Sydney around 7 years later and lived in Oyster Bay where Marion started secondary school at Port Hacking State High. That would fill the 9 year gap I think, thunderwombat. Episode 2 (2.40)

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Not quite! Marion's parents John Mackenzie and Colleen Wilson's address in 1949 was 58 Canonbury Grove Dulwich Hill which is a 4 minute drive from Victoria Rd, according to Google maps. They don't appear on the electoral roll again until 1958 when their address is Drummond Rd Oyster Bay, so where they lived in those 9 years, I don't know.

Thanks! I had found the Canonbury Road record- but not the Oyster Bay one. I wonder if they were still at the Canonbury Road address, just were off the electoral roll at that time. A 4 minute drive is not a lot.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

The Wilson family moved to Queensland when Marion was 4 or 5 and lived at Wellington Point near Brisbane for the early part of the 1950s. They returned to Sydney around 7 years later and lived in Oyster Bay where Marion started secondary school at Port Hacking State High. That would fill the 9 year gap I think, thunderwombat. Episode 2 (2.40)

Hmm..that unfortunately gives little time for Marion to have lived near the Despoges as a child..but who knows she could have known Florabella from Peakhurst as an adult. I noticed in the death notice for Florabella Despoges- her duaghter is simply referred to as Hazel. No Florence or Florabella. Are we sure she didn't maybe change it to this herself and keep Hazel as a middle name?

I have also come across family trees on Ancestry with Florabella Despoges in them- well mostly via her husband's trees and their children when they are listed are Syd, John, Eve..but never seem to include Florabella or Hazel. Though it would appear Florabella Williams was also known as Florabella Botterill...maybe a first husband? The 1949 census I found for Florabella Despoges does not include a daughter of that name either. Since she appears living there in 1954- she must have come of voting age between 1949 and 1954. Is it 18 to vote in Australia?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Wondering why there's been such a delay in the NCAT decision, it's sure taking a long time, unless the Member went on leave or something. So the matter was heard in June this year .... getting close to 6 months now without a decision. Here's a snippet off the NCAT website if anyone's interested:
"In some cases, the Tribunal Member will be able to give you their decision at the end of the hearing. However, in most cases the member will need time to consider the case and will give the decision at a later date. You will usually receive the decision within two months. Complex matters may take longer." H'mm, complex.
"You will receive a letter telling you of the decision that NCAT has made. You will be notified by phone before the reasons are published. You will receive a copy of the written decision, as well as information about your appeal rights. The decision will also be available on the Caselaw website."

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Hmm..that unfortunately gives little time for Marion to have lived near the Despoges as a child..but who knows she could have known Florabella from Peakhurst as an adult. I noticed in the death notice for Florabella Despoges- her duaghter is simply referred to as Hazel. No Florence or Florabella. Are we sure she didn't maybe change it to this herself and keep Hazel as a middle name?

I have also come across family trees on Ancestry with Florabella Despoges in them- well mostly via her husband's trees and their children when they are listed are Syd, John, Eve..but never seem to include Florabella or Hazel. Though it would appear Florabella Williams was also known as Florabella Botterill...maybe a first husband? The 1949 census I found for Florabella Despoges does not include a daughter of that name either. Since she appears living there in 1954- she must have come of voting age between 1949 and 1954. Is it 18 to vote in Australia?

Yes, and probably back then when Marion was young she would have referred to Florabella as Mrs Stocks without knowing her first name, but if she met her when she was older then would have been by first name you'd think.
Just thinking about Florabella too down in the Blue Mountains .... Marion may have taken the class there for excursions or picnics, we used to do that in school, may have been happy times for her there ..... who knows