Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[KiwiNZ]

With all due respect, sally also wasn’t aware that her mother had changed her name, got a new passport, traveled back into Australia, etc. Marion may have had access to a computer through work, library, a friend (maccas man?) that sally wasn’t aware of.

true, but you tend to know if your parents can use a computer but she could have always taken a course and Sally not be aware.

 

[sunnynz]

true, but you tend to know if your parents can use a computer but she could have always taken a course and Sally not be aware.

Someone earlier mentioned a book about how to go missing. I’m wondering if there was that kind of info online in those days and she might have looked at it there. Wondering if there was a lonely hearts chat room?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Someone earlier mentioned a book about how to go missing. I’m wondering if there was that kind of info online in those days and she might have looked at it there. Wondering if there was a lonely hearts chat room?

I don't think I really got into the internet until around 1998, but I remember there was so many chat rooms, it was all the go, and you could so easily get sucked in, my friend had a "boyfriend" in the USA she had only ever spoken to in the chat room, we all thought it was so cool. It was addictive.

So easy to imagine someone like Marion getting sucked into that world if she had access to a computer. I had written that idea off because of Sally's comments but as you say she may have not known her mother had taken courses or learnt to use a computer.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Oooh! Mind blown... How do you think this would have played out had Marion not changed her name, but everything else was the same? Thoughts?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Oooh! Mind blown... How do you think this would have played out had Marion not changed her name, but everything else was the same?

I think police would have handled it a lot differently and I don't think anyone would be thinking she left to start a new life. I think it is a fact that has worked against this case and hindered police all along, because if there is even the slightest chance she left of her own accord then the privacy law comes into play more than it would in a normal case, they seem to be constrained to help Marion by that action.

The police will only look at facts, no emotions, they can only act on facts when requesting authorization from their superiors to undertake a line of investigation, as soon as they see she changed her name, and returned to the country without contacting her family, it is assumed there is a high chance she is voluntary missing, that limits them to what they can do or release. I really think the police in the latter years have tried to overlook this, but with caution, because if she has chosen to disappear then the repercussions are significant. I guess they need some evidence that she has come to harm, stronger than the evidence they have that looks like she voluntarily disappeared, name change, returning and not contacting her family. And if the Bank ID process is in their paper work than that would work against her as well.

all very frustrating

That's my take

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This post lands at random.

Some posts have been removed. Please remember to discuss the case itself rather than personalizing and sniping at other members.

Thank you.

 

[Pi Thoughts]

I'm not much of a sleuth. I'm an old lady, a former English teacher and voracious reader of all kinds of novels and non-fiction. In Marion's story, I hear a narrative and hear characters, as if the story were being composed by an overarching being. For me, the story of Marion is about a romantic, vulnerable woman. Her lifelong career is no longer satisfying. Her children are grown. She's alone. Until she falls in love, with a man she believes is the real deal. He proposes to go along on the romantic trip to England Marion has always dreamed of. The plan, as he tells Marion, 1. is a secret trip to England where they will marry; 2. where they would retrieve Marion's money and then-- 3. move to Luxembourg to start her new married life. All very innocent and easy for a romantic woman to believe. You can imagine Marion in England holding her secret and planning to spring it on her loved ones. "I'm married! I'm moving to Europe! It's all good! Come visit!"

Instead, the man cancels the lifetime goal of the Orient Express. Tells Marion she's ruined everything.

In the novel playing in my head, Marion returns to Australia, crestfallen or maybe shaken. The marriage didn't happen in England. She tried to withdraw her England money and couldn't with the new name. The man loses his temper because she changed her name in advance. He says they must return to Australia. Marion imagines a short visit, a detour to her marriage. Perhaps she's even a bit suspicious but guilty too. She does what her fiance proposes and withdraws the bank money in preparation for the big move, waiting for his approval to contact Sally and Owen. Which never happens. . . .

The man gets what he wants. Marion is expendable. Or ashamed, Marion hurts herself. I don't believe Marion was a schemer, or a deserting mother. I don't believe she was a fool or was hurtful. I believe she is like most woman I know. A romantic whose heart led her astray. Novels (and my own life) are full of this narrative. The man who promises and then hurts. The woman who gets caught in a trap and can find no way out.

Delusion is powerful when we want to believe what we want to believe.

I find this to be the most plausible explanation yet. Sadly I believe she was vulnerable and taken advantage of to her detriment.
Your statement that delusion is powerful when we want to believe what we want to believe is poignant.
MOO

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I got my first email addresses in 1994 and by 1997 being online and having an email address had really taken off.
Do we know if Marion had computer access, either at home or at the school?

I’d love to get my hands on Marion’s email address if she had one. It would have been early days of email but amazing what shows up sometimes when you search an email address.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

$20,000 back then would have seemed like a much larger amount than it does these days, same as the $5000 taken out each day for three weeks.
More than enough that other people might have wanted to scam someone out of it.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

There were chat rooms around in those days, plus chat software like ICQ

Someone earlier mentioned a book about how to go missing. I’m wondering if there was that kind of info online in those days and she might have looked at it there. Wondering if there was a lonely hearts chat room?

 

[Sparkles5777]

There were chat rooms around in those days, plus chat software like ICQ

I feel like if this was the case though someone must have noticed. The internet then wasn't like it is now with our phones and everything at our finger tips. Back then it was a sturdy desktop computer at home or work. I think Lesley would have mentioned something like 'oh she was always on the computer' or something like that. Do we know how long Lesley was living with Marion before she left? I don't recall the podcast mentioning how long it was.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I got my first email addresses in 1994 and by 1997 being online and having an email address had really taken off.
Do we know if Marion had computer access, either at home or at the school?

I definitely remember having computer labs at school in the years leading up to 1997. Not PCs in every class, but one room with all the PCs in it, ha!

I recall at the time, reading articles and hearing news that with internet taking off, there were a bunch of romance scams happening. We used to all be aghast at actually dating or meeting love interests online... it was so foreign but definitely happening at the time.

The internet really felt like the new frontier.

 

[Sparkles5777]

I'm not much of a sleuth. I'm an old lady, a former English teacher and voracious reader of all kinds of novels and non-fiction. In Marion's story, I hear a narrative and hear characters, as if the story were being composed by an overarching being. For me, the story of Marion is about a romantic, vulnerable woman. Her lifelong career is no longer satisfying. Her children are grown. She's alone. Until she falls in love, with a man she believes is the real deal. He proposes to go along on the romantic trip to England Marion has always dreamed of. The plan, as he tells Marion, 1. is a secret trip to England where they will marry; 2. where they would retrieve Marion's money and then-- 3. move to Luxembourg to start her new married life. All very innocent and easy for a romantic woman to believe. You can imagine Marion in England holding her secret and planning to spring it on her loved ones. "I'm married! I'm moving to Europe! It's all good! Come visit!"

Instead, the man cancels the lifetime goal of the Orient Express. Tells Marion she's ruined everything.

In the novel playing in my head, Marion returns to Australia, crestfallen or maybe shaken. The marriage didn't happen in England. She tried to withdraw her England money and couldn't with the new name. The man loses his temper because she changed her name in advance. He says they must return to Australia. Marion imagines a short visit, a detour to her marriage. Perhaps she's even a bit suspicious but guilty too. She does what her fiance proposes and withdraws the bank money in preparation for the big move, waiting for his approval to contact Sally and Owen. Which never happens. . . .

The man gets what he wants. Marion is expendable. Or ashamed, Marion hurts herself. I don't believe Marion was a schemer, or a deserting mother. I don't believe she was a fool or was hurtful. I believe she is like most woman I know. A romantic whose heart led her astray. Novels (and my own life) are full of this narrative. The man who promises and then hurts. The woman who gets caught in a trap and can find no way out.

Delusion is powerful when we want to believe what we want to believe.

I also feel like at the heart of this story there is a man somewhere who has been the catalyst of why Marion acted the way she did.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I

I don't think I really got into the internet until around 1998, but I remember there was so many chat rooms, it was all the go, and you could so easily get sucked in, my friend had a "boyfriend" in the USA she had only ever spoken to in the chat room, we all thought it was so cool. It was addictive.

So easy to imagine someone like Marion getting sucked into that world if she had access to a computer. I had written that idea off because of Sally's comments but as you say she may have not known her mother had taken courses or learnt to use a computer.

I am not so sure how different the Australian school system would have been. With staff having presumably already trained with new technologies, we were taught how to do things like search a website for information, use a search engine and send an email. Basic stuff. This would be late 97, early 98. I was 13 and although Marion taught the lower school, I would have thought teachers would have been some of the first to be trained in new basic technologies.. doing these sorts of tasks, not even so much to teach, but because soon it would become a way of teachers preparing for lessons, sending messages to other staff member and such like.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I find this to be the most plausible explanation yet. Sadly I believe she was vulnerable and taken advantage of to her detriment.
Your statement that delusion is powerful when we want to believe what we want to believe is poignant.
MOO

People can really deceive others. While Marion may have initially changed her name to Florabella with the intent of starting a new life, with a new partner , in a new country and intent on eventually telling her family..as much as anything else, on Marion's return the large withdrawals and then disappearance into what seems to be the abyss...could be to hide from the man himself whom she had planned to marry, just as much as hiding from anything else. The question of whether she would choose to hide from her family could have initially have been to protect them and then something or someone caught up with her anyway. Are there any refuge hostels or crisis centres in Australia where you can check in under an anonymous name and simply seek counsel? Could there have been a woman who did this in August/September 1997 ? I am guessing reports of concern would by law have to be sent to the police , but Marion could have checked in in haste somewhere for a day or so and then insisted on leaving, simply seeking somewhere for refuge? I wonder if use of the medicare card could have been someone insisting at the very least she see a doctor . Could a doctor then raise concerns with police without Marion's consent or with Marion's insistence she was allright? It may be very unlikely Marion would dare go somewhere like this for fear she would be made to go to a doctor or reveal details she did not want, however I don't think places like this have a right to detain anyone or call the police without hard evidence of a crime. Marion may have appeared to them, just shaken up or upset and refused to seek any therapy. At the very least, we know someone using Marion's Medicare card in September, needed treatment of some sort. Would someone using it illegally or even Marion herself, dare use it for something as small as a cold or general bug and risk being located?

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I'm on the last episode of the podcast. Really only half listening as an Australia famous lady chats with Sally. (The one who gave Marion the Teacher award.) At one point she says vehemently and repeats again and again: I could never leave my children. This woman says what I've always felt. As a mother myself, I can say that I only once might have left my children. And that was for a handsome cowboy brickmason alcoholic who had a stable full of horses and no money. I was besotted and irrational. Thank God, he ditched me for another woman. I virtually abandoned my children during that affair. After it, I was appalled, and it never happened again.

Again, I'm not a sleuth. I just know a lot about human nature. Insane women abandon their children. (This includes cults imo.) Women in love in abusive relationships might abandon their children. Mothers in normal circumstances would never leave their children, no matter how old they are. Just my 2cents.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I am not so sure how different the Australian school system would have been. With staff having presumably already trained with new technologies. . . .

My son was in Kindergarten in the mid-1990s at an exclusive boy's school in Virginia. There were no computers in the room. The teacher did not have a computer in the classroom. It was all hands-on activities and lots of hard play time. IMO if Marion had a computer, I imagine Sally would have seen it. Of course, Marion could have used a computer at the library. I didn't try online dating until 2003. But I did try personal ads prior to that. (I felt safer with text and writing style.) IMO, Marion seems (in retrospect) to be far more likely to fall for a romantic-sounding classified ad. There was nothing really romantic about online chat rooms in the 1990s. They were visually ugly, and seduction was not subtle. For some reason, I don't find Florabella Natalia the kind of name a chat room user would choose. But as many have said, Marion may have had a hidden dark side.

Oh, and. . . Steiner Schools have a no-computer policy until High School. Marion loved the idea of Steiner School.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Yes the police checked the Novotel

There is so much to this case and so many details that we can only speculate, with lack of hard evidence- but the earliest evidence is probably the most important bits right now as it can help explain the next occurence and what was going on. As far as we know there is no reason to disbelieve Marion was in fact in the UK - the first bit is when she returns. The police say the Novotel was checked, as mentioned by Intrigued..so presumably there are records from 1997. But what did they check- for Florabella, for Marion? If she booked in under a travelling companions name, can police rule out her staying there or is a check simply saying- we have checked- inconclusive..it's not been made clear.

If a Florabella or a Marion does not appear, were the checks made against all names that booked in for a 2 person room? Hotels never seem to ask names of all occupants, they just care about the name it is booked under and need the name of the person paying.
So, if Florabella or Marion didn't come up- the police line of enquiry with Novotel is surely not over...

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

FACT: Marion changed her name to Florabella Remakel.

FACT: Marion's re-entry card in that name states she is married.

CONCLUSION: If Marion filled out that card (and there is no reason yet to doubt conclusively she did), Marion was married to a man named Remakel -- or -- Marion believed she was married to a man named Remakel -- or -- Marion intended to marry a man named Remakel.

This seems inescapable to me. Not a fact but pretty darn close.

NOW imagine IF you were that man named Remakel, and the woman you mistreated is now linked to you for all time. (Even a conman using the name Remakel leaves a trail, as Hamish did.)

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

QUESTION FOR YOU and then I'm off: Can the police question the doctor or review the files for Marion's visit? Have they the authority in Australia to do that?