Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[Josiegirl62]

This seems the most logical explanation. However, the problem is there is no obvious movements by Marion after October 1997. So does no movement include checks for floraballa remakel? When they say no trace or record of anything in her name do they mean Marion, florabella or both? If both, does this includes flights back out of Australia? If so, could she have changed her name yet again from florabella?

Or the alternative is, she didn't change her name but something happened to her. If she in fact intended to stay on the gold Coast and not return to Europe and was living in that general coastal area, what are the chances of something happened to her and.. as awful as it is to say, no body would ever be found because the coast was close enough... and perhaps over time no real searches of the sea or for remains have ever been done in the most likely place. Or are there any remains found off the gold Coast which have never been identified, because they would be the next to check.

Something happened after October 15th. She either changed her name or Marion did something we have no record of, florabella did something there is no record of or... Marion was either killed or commuted suicide. There are really 5 possibilities as to her fate, but the sort of middle of October to end of october 1997 is a crucial few weeks to look at.

Sophie, can you please bring me up to speed with 15th October.. I seem to have missed the significance of that date. So Florabella was in Australia August 2nd - 15th October.?

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Sophie, can you please bring me up to speed with 15th October.. I seem to have missed the significance of that date. So Florabella was in Australia August 2nd - 15th October.?

I believe that October the 15th is the day Marion emptied and closed her colonial Bank account in Ashmore. I may be a day or so out.

This appears to be last known movement in her timeline. Before this she had used her medicare card in grafton. Unless I am wrong, she may have gone back to burleigh heads and byron Bay for cash but I thought that was done by October. I don't recall a date for when those transactions were said to have stopped. The timeline we have for her as I know it seems to end in October.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I double checked and yes assuming the person using Marion's bank cards was in fact Marion-which I personally think it was as I agree that it appears to be Marion's handwriting on her returning passenger card.

It was in fact the 15th of October she emptied her colonial bank account and it is allegedly someone at Colonial who informed police that Marion had said she wants no contact. This was just 3 days before her son's birthday when she failed to contact him and alerted Sally to the fact something was amiss and when she subsequently discovered large transactions had been made from Marion's account.

This is where I believe the story changes. I am not entirely convinced her family shouldn't be concerned about her failure to contact Owen because even if she did want to start a new life... If she could conceivably hold it together for Sally and contact her in August, why not Owen in October even if she did pretend she was elsewhere. Surely it would have bought her some time if she still had not left Australia. Something happened between her contacting Sally and failing to contact Owen. That is why I think the emptying of her bank account on 15th October is pivotal. I think it changed there and telling the bank teller she wanted no contact and was annoyed about the car. I think it was her, because a bank would never inform the police unless they were convinced it was Marion herself or release the money. But I think someone was coercing her to do so, who hadn't ramped up their coercion until that point.

I think Marion was doing what she wanted to until a certain point, then when she returned to Australia something got nasty and the pressure was being put on her from elsewhere. There is too much to do with money for me not to suspect she was being threatened in some way. For all we know she wanted no contact, to keep her family safe. Maybe he or she was threatening others besides Marion. I hope some day we will know.....

 

[Josiegirl62]

Working with a slightly blurry version of the passenger card, as I can't seem to find a clear image... noting a few inconsistencies.

When comparing the cursive F in the signature panel on the incoming passenger card (Florabella or Frau) with Marion's letter to Sally's - see image in post Nov 2017 -, I note the following differences:

1. When writing uppercase names like Luke Glover in the letter, the whole name is above the line. Generally an Uppercase F is above the line. The sample on the passenger card is below the line, and looks like a lower case F.

2. The structure of the F on the passenger card is not consistent with the structure of the lowercase F's in Sallys letters in her post.

3. Sallys post from 14/2/13 shows more hand writing, where the last letter is a lowercase cursive "l", this is distinctly different ending to the "l" in the name of Remakel on the passenger card.

4. The number "3" is clearly not a sample of Marions 3's that we can see, Marions are more rounded than these ones with a flattened top.

Being a teacher, I would imaging that she would stick to the writing conventions she had been teaching for years . . . . unless she is trying to hide her identity!

p.s. im not a hand writing guru, just noticing the slight differences.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

This seems the most logical explanation. However, the problem is there is no obvious movements by Marion after October 1997. So does no movement include checks for floraballa remakel? When they say no trace or record of anything in her name do they mean Marion, florabella or both?

I think the answer to this is all known names have been searched. The NCAT decision talks a central names index (CNI) relating to 6 separate documents in the file. I dont know what a CNI is but the name suggests there is a record of Marion's various names

 

[Mjjj14]

This seems the most logical explanation. However, the problem is there is no obvious movements by Marion after October 1997. So does no movement include checks for floraballa remakel? When they say no trace or record of anything in her name do they mean Marion, florabella or both? If both, does this includes flights back out of Australia? If so, could she have changed her name yet again from florabella?

Or the alternative is, she didn't change her name but something happened to her. If she in fact intended to stay on the gold Coast and not return to Europe and was living in that general coastal area, what are the chances of something happened to her and.. as awful as it is to say, no body would ever be found because the coast was close enough... and perhaps over time no real searches of the sea or for remains have ever been done in the most likely place. Or are there any remains found off the gold Coast which have never been identified, because they would be the next to check.

Something happened after October 15th. She either changed her name or Marion did something we have no record of, florabella did something there is no record of or... Marion was either killed or commuted suicide. There are really 5 possibilities as to her fate, but the sort of middle of October to end of october 1997 is a crucial few weeks to look at.

I’m sure Garry Sheehan confirmed that they searched both names.

Also he did confirm that there were no further name changes.

I currently think she assumed someone else’s identity or that she is dead.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I’m sure Garry Sheehan confirmed that they searched both names.

Also he did confirm that there were no further name changes.

I currently think she assumed someone else’s identity or that she is dead.

Yes and by the sounds of it, not much records kept by the deed poll of name changes. One would think though there would be something that could be followed up incase someone did it in order to hide their identity after a crime.

Mind you dna they maybe thought was being relied on more if there was any suspicion. Who can say? However the name florabella was not known even to Sally until 2011..Marion at that time would have had no reason to believe she had to change her name again to something else. Apart from the name Marion perhaps what else in thst name would have anyone made a connection with? If you really want to go under the radar, then the name florabella throws you off completely.. Who would have guessed such a name?

If she changed it again, it was likely to do with whatever the Remakel association was. I am guessing. Something did not work out. Could she have simply gone back to Marion Wilson for example... Would be an obvious choice and because wilson is such a common surname... would probably make it equally difficult in tracing her. This is unlikely though.

Has anyone looked further into the name change thing though to rule it out? Are any documents kept that could ever be released? I think it is a long shot, but one worth thinking about all the same.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Just as a side note... I honestly think that Marion for whatever reason, maybe she didn't understand the citizenship rules fully when filling out the passenger card.. But I think with a name like florabella remakel.. She had absolutely no intention of remaining in Australia.

This may have been an oversight by a teacher and a very intelligent lady but I think it would have been an even bigger oversight for someone as educated as she was to honestly think they could remain in Australia, undetected as Marion barter on the gold Coast... A place she was familiar with, between Queensland and New South Wales.. Both territories she had spent her whole life living in without someone somewhere not asking questions about how she came to have a name like florabella remakel.. Even saying she simply had married a man from Luxembourg... At some point she would bump into someone from her previous 50 years, who knew someone who knew her as Marion barter and who knew her family was searching for her. I think she would have known that too... I think she had every intention of returning to the UK or Luxembourg to live and she never got there.

 

[poppypopcorn]

But as an educated woman she would also know that you can't just pitch up in the UK, Luxembourg or anywhere else on a tourist visa, get married or take a job. Not legally anyway.

 

[Meligator]

Yes and by the sounds of it, not much records kept by the deed poll of name changes. One would think though there would be something that could be followed up incase someone did it in order to hide their identity after a crime.

Mind you dna they maybe thought was being relied on more if there was any suspicion. Who can say? However the name florabella was not known even to Sally until 2011..Marion at that time would have had no reason to believe she had to change her name again to something else. Apart from the name Marion perhaps what else in thst name would have anyone made a connection with? If you really want to go under the radar, then the name florabella throws you off completely.. Who would have guessed such a name?

If she changed it again, it was likely to do with whatever the Remakel association was. I am guessing. Something did not work out. Could she have simply gone back to Marion Wilson for example... Would be an obvious choice and because wilson is such a common surname... would probably make it equally difficult in tracing her. This is unlikely though.

Has anyone looked further into the name change thing though to rule it out? Are any documents kept that could ever be released? I think it is a long shot, but one worth thinking about all the same.

I suspect she never left Australia after returning August 2nd. Her Florabella name was unknown to Sally until 2011, but by October 1997 the banks had alerted her that Sally knew she had likely returned (A wrench in Marion’s plan to have gone missing in UK).. At that point Marion may have decided it safest to stop using Florabella & Marion. She must have assumed a new identity not through name change (e.g., stolen identity).

As for Remakel/Luxembourg connection, I suspect it’s all a red herring to further misdirect. She may have in fact met a Remakel from Lux—or even a answered the ad (which would explain how she had familiarity with the name), but putting something on a passenger card that leads her whereabouts.

I wonder if she used her time in UK to change her appearance (dye hair, plastic surgery)...she may be living in Australia under a different name & not strongly resembling her photo. In fact, maybe her doctor visits were in prep/post for some reconstructive work (just a thought).

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Yes that's what I mean. I think this would have been more of an oversight or her underestimating the due process. She perhaps came back thinking it could all get sorted in space off 8 days.. (or someone from Luxembourg she was with was convincing her of this). Either way, I think it would require even more naivety on her part to believe she would go undetected in Australia.

For all we know the administration for a visa could have been undertaken as soon as she had changed her name. So whether she was naive to this or something else, she was naive to something... neither side of the plan would have worked in as much as she seemed to have planned it...

There may have been a plan perhaps, whereby they planned to move to one country in the EU whose immigration policy was lighter and then from there... move to Luxembourg as you can move within the EU freely. Maybe she thought she could do it slightly more illegally or under the radar, without any comeback.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Also, let's not forget.. Even if she was not married legally to a gentleman from Luxembourg at the time.. her passenger card suggests she intended to be by the time she left Australia.

If she thought it was just a matter of time she maybe did not consider what she out on her passenger card to be a lie. In which case, as the wife of an EU national, immigration would not have then been an issue.

 

[Mjjj14]

If she thought it was just a matter of time she maybe did not consider what she out on her passenger card to be a lie. In which case, as the wife of an EU national, immigration would not have then been an issue.

But the other stuff on her passenger card was a lie (the Novotel and the date she said she was leaving Aus) so why would any of the rest of it be true?

I’m not sure what you mean that as the wife of an EU national that immigration wouldn’t be an issue? She would still have needed to have a continued term of residence in a European country in order to be gain citizenship. I wonder if the police are able to see spousal visas that have been applied for by Aus citizens? Surely they can?!

 

[KiwiNZ]

But the other stuff on her passenger card was a lie (the Novotel and the date she said she was leaving Aus) so why would any of the rest of it be true?

do we know that she didn’t stay in the Novotel, even if it was just for a few nights ? I can’t rember if this has been checked out.

 

[KiwiNZ]

But the other stuff on her passenger card was a lie (the Novotel and the date she said she was leaving Aus) so why would any of the rest of it be true?

do we know that she didn’t stay in the Novotel, even if it was just for a few nights ? I can’t rember if this has been checked out.

 

[Mjjj14]

I recall that the podcast said she didn’t stay there but someone may have to confirm that!

 

[bje111]

All passengers returning to Luxemburg in the weeks/months following retrieval of the final banking funds need to be checked into. In case it was an imposter using Marion's identity. Has this been covered already - have all passengers been looked into or requested by Sally to be looked into?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Just as a side note... I honestly think that Marion for whatever reason, maybe she didn't understand the citizenship rules fully when filling out the passenger card.. But I think with a name like florabella remakel.. She had absolutely no intention of remaining in Australia.

This may have been an oversight by a teacher and a very intelligent lady but I think it would have been an even bigger oversight for someone as educated as she was to honestly think they could remain in Australia, undetected as Marion barter on the gold Coast... A place she was familiar with, between Queensland and New South Wales.. Both territories she had spent her whole life living in without someone somewhere not asking questions about how she came to have a name like florabella remakel.. Even saying she simply had married a man from Luxembourg... At some point she would bump into someone from her previous 50 years, who knew someone who knew her as Marion barter and who knew her family was searching for her. I think she would have known that too... I think she had every intention of returning to the UK or Luxembourg to live and she never got there.

I dont think Marion intended to remain in one place, regardless of her destination. Marion is described as 'restless' by her lifelong friend and she lived in a number of houses/places during her life.
Personally I dont think she planned to return overseas (i think the UK was an attempt to confound the search for her) I think her plan was to return to familiar surrounds to sort out her money and the possessions in storage and then move interstate. I also think she planned to move around.
The red flag for me is Marion not collecting her super. She was able to access it 2 years after her return to Australia and I would have thought this would have been a welcome injection of funds, especially as her family were already aware she wanted to start a new life.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I recall that the podcast said she didn’t stay there but someone may have to confirm that!

Yes the police checked the Novotel

 

[Mjjj14]

All passengers returning to Luxemburg in the weeks/months following retrieval of the final banking funds need to be checked into. In case it was an imposter using Marion's identity. Has this been covered already - have all passengers been looked into or requested by Sally to be looked into?

Im not sure that would yield any results because Florabella’s passport didn’t leave the country again so they couldn’t really be impersonating her whilst travelling back.

Imo it would be interesting for police to check to see if any passports that had later been reported stolen left the country and potentially went to Luxembourg. I think it’s more likely Marion herself started impersonating someone.