Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[TootsieFootsie]

Dentists do seem to figure quite a bit.

Even that Marion would mention someone she met was a dentist makes me think she thought it was worthwhile mentioning, and it impressed her.

It's interesting the number of dentists mentioned in this case ..... we have the dentist signing her passport, another dentist Marion was very fond of at the school, and now we've got a dentist on a mystery postcard. It's all a bit curious .... coincidental no doubt, but strangely interesting.

 

[Estelle]

My gut feeling is that these scammers lived in Europe or the UK and placed lonely hearts ads in other countries trying to catch a victim. using a PO Box with a forwarding address So Marion replied to the Remarkel ad and started telling him too much about herself thinking he was genuinely looking for marriage. When he told her he was a famous footballer, she was impressed. Marion is very smitten. So eventually he asked if she would like to marry him in Luxembourg and she agreed. So, as she has done before, she changes her name before marriage to something exotic - Forabella as she loves their china and Remarkel to avoid the hassle of changing it again in Europe after she gets married. She then has to change her passport but forgets to change her other IDs. He tells her that she may as well sell her house as he has a lovely house, put the money in the bank and store her antiques as she can ship them over later. She decides she wants to go to England first so he tells her that he will meet her over there and take her to Luxembourg. Could her flight over go via Seoul, Tokyo, somewhere else, then London? Narita stationery does not makes sense otherwise. She is naive about travelling so puts London instead of her first stopover - South Korea. Has Remarkel told her that he is a Dentist? So he arrives in Tonbridge Wells with his sister (his fellow scammer) and tell Marion that they are going to drive her to Luxembourg after a week or two. They subtly ask Marion questions about her financial and other affairs and she willingly tells them everything as she thinks he is going to marry her. There is a lot more to put in here.

They get hold of something with Marion's writing on so the female scammer makes a note of how Marion writes every letter in the alphabet and starts practising. Who booked Marion's flight home? Somehow they get hold of Marion's passport as maybe she shared a room with the guy but Marion has not noticed? The female scammer sets off for Australia. Male scammer tells Marion to phone home but not to say anything about him. Marion is murdered and her body is hidden. Female scammer has forged Marion's writing on the postcards for male scammer to send later to cover them until female scammer completes her scamming. The idea of Mazz and the dentist are to put detectives off the track.

You can all debunk or improve this as I have forgotten some of the details. Is this sort of scenario plausible?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I really can't recall but I "think" it was something to do with marrying someone from Luxenbourg ?

That’s interesting. I don’t remember that, what did they think? I totally agree, the name change is such a bizarre aspect of this case.

 

[Loxoli]

Dentists do seem to figure quite a bit.

Even that Marion would mention someone she met was a dentist makes me think she thought it was worthwhile mentioning, and it impressed her.

I feel like I really need to see this postcard. Context is everything. She could have said something like, ‘I have met a man who is a dentist and we’ve been doing some sightseeing together.’ It could have been, ‘I have been on a few dates with a man who is a dentist, he is lovely’. It could have been, ‘I’ve met a travelling companion and she is a dentist. We decided to go to (tourist destination) together and had lunch.’ It could be something innocuous like, ‘I went to... and sat next to a man on the bus who is a dentist and his wife, Maz.’ I really want to read this postcard.

 

[Loxoli]

My gut feeling is that these scammers lived in Europe or the UK and placed lonely hearts ads in other countries trying to catch a victim. using a PO Box with a forwarding address So Marion replied to the Remarkel ad and started telling him too much about herself thinking he was genuinely looking for marriage. When he told her he was a famous footballer, she was impressed. Marion is very smitten. So eventually he asked if she would like to marry him in Luxembourg and she agreed. So, as she has done before, she changes her name before marriage to something exotic - Forabella as she loves their china and Remarkel to avoid the hassle of changing it again in Europe after she gets married. She then has to change her passport but forgets to change her other IDs. He tells her that she may as well sell her house as he has a lovely house, put the money in the bank and store her antiques as she can ship them over later. She decides she wants to go to England first so he tells her that he will meet her over there and take her to Luxembourg. Could her flight over go via Seoul, Tokyo, somewhere else, then London? Narita stationery does not makes sense otherwise. She is naive about travelling so puts London instead of her first stopover - South Korea. Has Remarkel told her that he is a Dentist? So he arrives in Tonbridge Wells with his sister (his fellow scammer) and tell Marion that they are going to drive her to Luxembourg after a week or two. They subtly ask Marion questions about her financial and other affairs and she willingly tells them everything as she thinks he is going to marry her. There is a lot more to put in here.

They get hold of something with Marion's writing on so the female scammer makes a note of how Marion writes every letter in the alphabet and starts practising. Who booked Marion's flight home? Somehow they get hold of Marion's passport as maybe she shared a room with the guy but Marion has not noticed? The female scammer sets off for Australia. Male scammer tells Marion to phone home but not to say anything about him. Marion is murdered and her body is hidden. Female scammer has forged Marion's writing on the postcards for male scammer to send later to cover them until female scammer completes her scamming. The idea of Mazz and the dentist are to put detectives off the track.

You can all debunk or improve this as I have forgotten some of the details. Is this sort of scenario plausible?

I like this theory too. Makes sense!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

‘Lady Vanishes’ podcast sparks $250,000 reward for information

“Marion loved her antiques more than anyone or anything in her life. I believe wherever they ended up will be a clue as to what happened to her,” Vicki Sidie, one of Marion’s friends told the court.

Vicki says Marion went shopping at the finest stores and ate at the best restaurants.

Another close friend of Marion’s, Janis White, attended the hearing every day, even though she didn’t give evidence until the fourth day.

“It’s been a very different experience,” White told 7NEWS.

“There’s a lot of formality around it ... sometimes it’s been distressing and other times, it’s been matter-of-fact.”

We asked what she meant by distressing.

“I was distressed that Marion’s disappearance was treated as not of importance,” she explained.

“It seems to me assumptions were made and therefore the investigation didn’t happen.

“There were some police that assumed she was living her own life and didn’t want to be part of the family and left it at that ... that’s a pretty broad assumption.”

 

[angeliquemarkos1]

@Peralta I hope you don’t mind but please let me know if you do. I’ve just merged your fantastic timelines together and added two extra entries (in italics). Please feel free to correct, rewrite, make additions or ask me to delete. I find your timeframes of events very helpful and it’s interesting to see the connections between the events.


22 June 1997

• Marion tells family and friends she is going to England for possibly a year.
• Passenger card states she's permanently leaving for Luxembourg and her flight departs from Australia and arrives in England, which is crossed out and replaced with South Korea.

(Did she even know she was going to South Korea? If she bought her own ticket, she would know, surely!)

30 June 1997

• Sally receives letter postmarked Tunbridge Wells, on stationery from Narita, Japan

July 1997

• Sally/relative receives postcards postmarked Brighton, Kent, Sussex Coast and London.
• Sally receives postcard postmarked 7 July from Hastings.
• Also sent letters/postcards to some of her students during this period.
• Sent early gift to sister for her 7 August birthday.

15 July 1997

• Original date Marion’s was going to travel on Orient Express.

1 August 1997 (late afternoon/early evening AEST)

Marion calls Sally from payphone. She says she’s in Tunbridge Wells having tea and scones with ladies she just met. Says she won't be calling or sending postcards for a while in order to enjoy vacation. However, it’s likely she was already in transit to Australia.

2 August 1997 (AEST)

Marion arrives in Australia on Florabella passport. Not sure if she entered through Sydney or Brisbane airport. There’s some mention of her possibly staying at the Novotel hotel in Brisbane.

August 1997

• Postcards arrive in Australia from Marion in England.

7 August 1997

Canceled RACQ membership and policy (roadside assistance and vehicle insurance).

13 August 1997

Medicare card is used at optometrist at Grafton Shoppingworld.

30 August 1997

Date (unknown if that is the postmark or written date) on the last known postcard from Marion in Tunbridge England to Deirdre in Australia.

August to September 1997

$5000 withdrawn every day for 3.5 weeks at Commonwealth Bank Byron Bay and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads, totalling between $85k to $120k.

5 October 1997

$80000 withdrawal from Ashmore branch.

18 October 1997

Owen’s birthday. He did not hear from Marion.

22 October 1997

Sally visits Byron Bay bank and police, and reports Marion as missing.

Excuse my mind blank... but did Marion have a stop over in South Korea? I thought it was only Japan...? Or is this a mistake

 

[angeliquemarkos1]

I like this theory too. Makes sense!

I like this too however one must ask, how were they to know ( or assume) the reader of Le Courier ad would have money or access to money

 

[Mjjj14]

This is a summary of what Deirdre said to Alison Sandy in episode 2:

- Deirdre wasn't close to Marion.
- Is happy to let the disappearance rest, doesn't feel the need to see what happened. Can't judge Sally for doing it though.
- Impact on the family was enormous, sister Lee was very close with Marion and gets very distressed when Marion is brought up again.
- Thinks about Marion sometimes and thinks she is probably doing nice things somewhere, is glad her mother isn't around to have to go through the pain again.
- The last time she saw Marion was Christmas 1996 on the Sunshine Coast.
- Marion went to spend some time with her parents in 1997 before her trip and Deirdre thinks that her two sisters went to see her there as well. Deirdre wasn't there as she was overseas from around May, June and came back at the end of July.
- When Deirdre came back at the end of July there was a little parcel waiting for her from Marion as it was her birthday at start of Aug. Also had a card. The card didn't say anything unusual just wished her a happy birthday and hoped she had a good trip also mentioned the orient express. These came from Tunbridge Wells.
- Seemed to have sent a lot of letters to people around that date and later on the family all wondered what happened to her and wondered if she was ok because of this.
- Thinks that other sisters got postcards too.
- Elderly relatives postcards came from Sussex - This is the one that Marion mentioned hiring a car in.

So in this interview the 30 August 1997 postcard isn't mentioned at all. Only the card and gift that was there when Deirdre returned from her holiday in late July in anticipation for her birthday on 7 August.

^^^ Most of that isn't really relevant but I thought I would summarise what she said anyway while it was fresh in my mind. It is a shame that the 30 August 1997 postcard wasn't mentioned in that interview, but like I said upthread, the podcast was aware of a 30 August 1997 postcard because it was featured prominently in Jack Wilson's letter to the Salvos.

Does anyone remember whether the podcast/Sally talks about a postcard to the elderly relative in more detail? Such as when that was sent? I seem to remember it being mentioned more than once I just can't remember when it was mentioned and in what context.

 

[Loxoli]

Marion's handwriting samples #1

Some items on the 1997 passenger cards are inconsistent with the writing on the rest of the card and clearly NOT Marion's. Everyone agrees that it is likely the customs official that filled those in.

For example,

On the outgoing card: female tick, crossing out Europe and replacing it with Luxembourg spelled incorrectly, crossing out Europe and replacing it with S/Korea.

On the incoming card: passport number and married tick.

Excuse my mind blank... but did Marion have a stop over in South Korea? I thought it was only Japan...? Or is this a mistake

The passenger card has destination: England crossed out and replaced with S Korea. You can see this on the passenger card in the above quoted post. I’m not sure if this is actually where she had a stopover, but someone might be able to confirm this for us.

 

[brjakj]

Did we ever find anything more out about the Remarkel that worked near the arts centre?

I find it hard to believe that Marion would have come across an obscure French publication that had the ad in it.

to me, meeting the remarkel from near the arts centre seems much more likely.

 

[Mjjj14]

I really don't get changing your name by deed poll IF you are planning to marry someone by that name.

Though someone way back, a member here, gave a reason why she may have done it that way.

I think I am going mad. I swear I heard or read recently that Marion changed her name via deed poll prior to marrying one of her former spouses. I found this super interesting. Now I can't find it again to quote it.

 

[Mjjj14]

The passenger card has destination: England crossed out and replaced with S Korea. You can see this on the passenger card in the above quoted post. I’m not sure if this is actually where she had a stopover, but someone might be able to confirm this for us.

To the best of my knowledge, Marion wrote to Sally and Chris and just told them that she had a marvellous time in 'the East'. I don't think she ever explicitly said that she went to Japan. To be fair the East would encompass both Japan and Korea so this seems ok to me. The reason why it was originally thought that she went to Japan was because of Sally receiving a letter written on stationary from a hotel in Japan. Nobody knows where she got this stationary.

 

[Loxoli]

This is a summary of what Deirdre said to Alison Sandy in episode 2:

- Deirdre wasn't close to Marion.
- Is happy to let the disappearance rest, doesn't feel the need to see what happened. Can't judge Sally for doing it though.
- Impact on the family was enormous, sister Lee was very close with Marion and gets very distressed when Marion is brought up again.
- Thinks about Marion sometimes and thinks she is probably doing nice things somewhere, is glad her mother isn't around to have to go through the pain again.
- The last time she saw Marion was Christmas 1996 on the Sunshine Coast.
- Marion went to spend some time with her parents in 1997 before her trip and Deirdre thinks that her two sisters went to see her there as well. Deirdre wasn't there as she was overseas from around May, June and came back at the end of July.
- When Deirdre came back at the end of July there was a little parcel waiting for her from Marion as it was her birthday at start of Aug. Also had a card. The card didn't say anything unusual just wished her a happy birthday and hoped she had a good trip also mentioned the orient express. These came from Tunbridge Wells.
- Seemed to have sent a lot of letters to people around that date and later on the family all wondered what happened to her and wondered if she was ok because of this.
- Thinks that other sisters got postcards too.
- Elderly relatives postcards came from Sussex - This is the one that Marion mentioned hiring a car in.

So in this interview the 30 August 1997 postcard isn't mentioned at all. Only the card and gift that was there when Deirdre returned from her holiday in late July in anticipation for her birthday on 7 August.

^^^ Most of that isn't really relevant but I thought I would summarise what she said anyway while it was fresh in my mind. It is a shame that the 30 August 1997 postcard wasn't mentioned in that interview, but like I said upthread, the podcast was aware of a 30 August 1997 postcard because it was featured prominently in Jack Wilson's letter to the Salvos.

Does anyone remember whether the podcast/Sally talks about a postcard to the elderly relative in more detail? Such as when that was sent? I seem to remember it being mentioned more than once I just can't remember when it was mentioned and in what context.

Thanks for the summary, that’s very helpful. I’m really surprised they don’t talk about the 30th August postcard. I feel like it’s more significant than all the other postcards and packages, obviously because she was thought to be in Australia on that date.

 

[JLZ]

I think I am going mad. I swear I heard or read recently that Marion changed her name via deed poll prior to marrying one of her former spouses. I found this super interesting. Now I can't find it again to quote it.

It was Peralta's post #329.

 

[JLZ]

This is a summary of what Deirdre said to Alison Sandy in episode 2:

- Deirdre wasn't close to Marion.
- Is happy to let the disappearance rest, doesn't feel the need to see what happened. Can't judge Sally for doing it though.
- Impact on the family was enormous, sister Lee was very close with Marion and gets very distressed when Marion is brought up again.
- Thinks about Marion sometimes and thinks she is probably doing nice things somewhere, is glad her mother isn't around to have to go through the pain again.
- The last time she saw Marion was Christmas 1996 on the Sunshine Coast.
- Marion went to spend some time with her parents in 1997 before her trip and Deirdre thinks that her two sisters went to see her there as well. Deirdre wasn't there as she was overseas from around May, June and came back at the end of July.
- When Deirdre came back at the end of July there was a little parcel waiting for her from Marion as it was her birthday at start of Aug. Also had a card. The card didn't say anything unusual just wished her a happy birthday and hoped she had a good trip also mentioned the orient express. These came from Tunbridge Wells.
- Seemed to have sent a lot of letters to people around that date and later on the family all wondered what happened to her and wondered if she was ok because of this.
- Thinks that other sisters got postcards too.
- Elderly relatives postcards came from Sussex - This is the one that Marion mentioned hiring a car in.

So in this interview the 30 August 1997 postcard isn't mentioned at all. Only the card and gift that was there when Deirdre returned from her holiday in late July in anticipation for her birthday on 7 August.

^^^ Most of that isn't really relevant but I thought I would summarise what she said anyway while it was fresh in my mind. It is a shame that the 30 August 1997 postcard wasn't mentioned in that interview, but like I said upthread, the podcast was aware of a 30 August 1997 postcard because it was featured prominently in Jack Wilson's letter to the Salvos.

Does anyone remember whether the podcast/Sally talks about a postcard to the elderly relative in more detail? Such as when that was sent? I seem to remember it being mentioned more than once I just can't remember when it was mentioned and in what context.

I don't mean to insinuate but I feel like I've got to just ask, was there a physical resemblance between the sisters?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I think altogether she changed her name three times prior to marriage, or twice if you don't include Remakel.

‘Lady Vanishes’ podcast sparks $250,000 reward for information

Vicki recalls how she took Stuart’s name before they married, which she discovered while Marion was filling out forms.

“She wrote Marion Warren, and then she had to put her maiden name Wilson and she wrote ‘now known as Brown’,” she said.

“(Marion) said you can just change your name by deed poll.”

Marion took on the surname Barter when she married her third husband Ray Barter, before changing her name again by deed poll to Florabella Remakel in May 1997.

It does look like she was expecting to marry someone with the Remakel surname.

I think I am going mad. I swear I heard or read recently that Marion changed her name via deed poll prior to marrying one of her former spouses. I found this super interesting. Now I can't find it again to quote it.

 

[Mjjj14]

I think altogether she changed her name three times prior to marriage, or twice if you don't include Remakel.

‘Lady Vanishes’ podcast sparks $250,000 reward for information

Vicki recalls how she took Stuart’s name before they married, which she discovered while Marion was filling out forms.

“She wrote Marion Warren, and then she had to put her maiden name Wilson and she wrote ‘now known as Brown’,” she said.

“(Marion) said you can just change your name by deed poll.”

Marion took on the surname Barter when she married her third husband Ray Barter, before changing her name again by deed poll to Florabella Remakel in May 1997.

It does look like she was expecting to marry someone with the Remakel surname.

Ah thank you, thank you! I thought that I must have been dreaming about Marion and made this up haha.

I just feel like the fact that she was known to change her name prior to marriage is all the reasoning we would need to explain why someone might change their name before marrying someone overseas. Although I am going to do a search to see if I can quote that old post where someone mentions a reason for needing to change their name before getting married in Luxembourg.

 

[Loxoli]

I think altogether she changed her name three times prior to marriage, or twice if you don't include Remakel.

‘Lady Vanishes’ podcast sparks $250,000 reward for information

Vicki recalls how she took Stuart’s name before they married, which she discovered while Marion was filling out forms.

“She wrote Marion Warren, and then she had to put her maiden name Wilson and she wrote ‘now known as Brown’,” she said.

“(Marion) said you can just change your name by deed poll.”

Marion took on the surname Barter when she married her third husband Ray Barter, before changing her name again by deed poll to Florabella Remakel in May 1997.

It does look like she was expecting to marry someone with the Remakel surname.

It certainly looks that way, or at least someone who told her his last name was Remakel. She might have liked to have her marriage certificates with her new name on it, perhaps? I’m still finding it hard to explain the first and middle name changes though.

 

[JLZ]

I think altogether she changed her name three times prior to marriage, or twice if you don't include Remakel.

‘Lady Vanishes’ podcast sparks $250,000 reward for information

Vicki recalls how she took Stuart’s name before they married, which she discovered while Marion was filling out forms.

“She wrote Marion Warren, and then she had to put her maiden name Wilson and she wrote ‘now known as Brown’,” she said.

“(Marion) said you can just change your name by deed poll.”

Marion took on the surname Barter when she married her third husband Ray Barter, before changing her name again by deed poll to Florabella Remakel in May 1997.

It does look like she was expecting to marry someone with the Remakel surname.

I don't see the two/three times prior to marriage? Brown yes, but by my reading she took the Barter name at the time of the marriage. I'm also doubtful that the change to Brown was by deed poll; if it was she wouldn't have written Warren. I think she changed her name to Brown before marriage by calling herself Brown. "You can just change your name by deed poll" is a switch from the particular to the general, it's the way people talk when they want to mislead but not literally lie.