Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[Mjjj14]

I can’t recall who (maybe bank employee), someone told Sally she should start by looking in Byron Bay. I always wondered if that was just a flippant comment or a suggestion based on some real knowledge.

I know there are questions about who from the bank told police Marion was planning on starting a new life—but that info had to have come from someplace. While the police weren’t very helpful initially— I don’t think the police would invent such a detailed story involving specific amounts/dates of transactions. The police/salvo may have gotten some of the details wrong (wasn’t a security officer), but the police must have gotten that info from someone.

Yes, I am stuck on this too.

I think it was the original phone operator from the bank that told Sally this, which would make sense if she was concerned about the banking activity.

The other thing I’m struggling with regarding the bank and the salvos is the car issue.

Marion’s father was explicitly told was “tell Sally I’m angry about the car”. I’m pretty confident that this information was allegedly passed on from the elusive/non-existent ‘bank security officer’.

It’s a very explicit statement for someone to have just made up, they would’ve had to know that the car was given to Sally AND then that the car had been sold. The fact the car is mentioned makes me think it really was Marion (because who else would know about the car and who else would know to cancel RACQ).

The fact that there was some sort of clear message passed on sort of points to someone actually speaking with Marion at the time of the salvos enquiry.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

My opinion is that Marion was manipulated from the very beginning by a marriage scammer who had no intention of ever marrying her and instead wanted her money and she was murdered in the same year that she left Australia just after that last phone call.

I see a lot of people on this thread believe she was taken in by a marriage scammer. That may be so and I hope the inquest calls for police officers operating in foiling these types of scams back in the mid to late 90s. Following the art trail would help on this because that was the real loot in Marion's financial assets.

This rouse as it unfolds with Marion is a lot of trouble for a scammer to go through for just a few hundred thousand dollars, all the while coping with the threat of Marion's resolve collapsing and her notifying or returning to her family and the police.

I wonder about human trafficking at this time. A naive traveller alone overseas might fall prey. My sister almost did in Paris when a "kind" man offered her help with her luggage....

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I’m wondering how exactly that account Marion had operated. For example - if she did want to buy a property (even a property overseas for example) would the $5k withdrawal limit still have applied?

Thank goodness someone knew she had this account and that at least this limb of the mystery is somewhat resolved.

You are so right though the more I think about the banking aspect.

She had no card for her account as it was not replaced? (That is correct isn’t it?) so she had to have produced some sort of identification at the bank in order to access her money at all. I say this because when I go to the bank, I simply show them one of my debit or credit cards and that serves the purpose of identifying me in most regular transactions. Her bank accounts were by the sounds of things still in the name of Marion Barter so her current Florabella passport wouldn’t have worked for identification. If Marion or whoever was accessing her bank accounts went into the bank, they would really have needed to show her drivers licence.

The fact that there’s no evidence of suspicious activity reports being done for these withdrawals is just too odd with that many transactions. This makes me think now that scenarios 1 and 3 just can’t have happened on the balance of probabilities and if this did happen, I’m alarmed!

Does anyone know what a suspicious activity report entailed? Maybe it was as simple as contacting the customer to ask what they were doing with the money? But then again, how would they have even contacted her?

The other thing that is so weird and at odds with the imposter theory is the cancelling of the NRMA insurance policy. Would an imposter have known that this policy even existed? The other possible scenario with this is that Sally herself might have cancelled it but forgot, but would the NRMA have even let her cancel the policy as it was not in her name?

Yes, cancelling the insurance policy is a pretty obscure thing for an imposter to attend to .... that’s a weird one .... unless they had her wallet and just went through the cards, checking expiry dates and cancelling things, h’mm, I guess that’s possible.
PS: A new conversations episode dropped last night, The Inquest Part 2.

 

[Laughing]

This has been said before, many threads ago, so I can’t take credit for it.

On 10 Dec 1994, there were just two lonely heart ads, known as ‘rencontres' placed in the Le Courrier Australien. One is from Monsieur Remakel, the other is this:

French, 50 years old, blonde, blue eyed, 1.52m, slim, youthful looking, love healthy and simple life, seek sober French speaking man or man having French interests. Write to Marie Llimos, 221 Fontaines Ave, Wallace-St-Pierre, 84500

Could Marie Llimos be Mazz? Monsieur Remakel's accomplice? Or Marion’s imposter? A separate con? Or a genuine search for love? She’s supposedly just a year older than Marion at the time, and blue eyed.

All the other ads in the classifieds that day were not lonely hearts, they were language exchange, house swap, looking for work, offer of services, etc.

So now I’m curious to know if these two 'rencontres' were common or an anomaly for that paper? Basically, are there others?

If some of you feel like sleuthing, why not head over to Trove and see if there are any other ‘rencontres’ in issues around that time. If so, what are their names? Are they similar or different to the Remakel and Llimos ads? Any clues if they are scams or genuine?

Looks to me like an equal-opportunity scam, likely operated by a couple. Ready to fool and steal $$$ from either gender.

And, if one victim has $80,000 but you manage 3 or 4 or 8 victims....

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

Yes, I am stuck on this too.

I think it was the original phone operator from the bank that told Sally this, which would make sense if she was concerned about the banking activity.

The other thing I’m struggling with regarding the bank and the salvos is the car issue.

Marion’s father was explicitly told was “tell Sally I’m angry about the car”. I’m pretty confident that this information was allegedly passed on from the elusive/non-existent ‘bank security officer’.

It’s a very explicit statement for someone to have just made up, they would’ve had to know that the car was given to Sally AND then that the car had been sold. The fact the car is mentioned makes me think it really was Marion (because who else would know about the car and who else would know to cancel RACQ).

The fact that there was some sort of clear message passed on sort of points to someone actually speaking with Marion at the time of the salvos enquiry.

Why would Marion care about the car if she never intended to return to her old life?

The Salvo woman's testimony at the inquiry last Monday was weak and did not seem to point to a robust investigation by the Salvos at the time. I wonder how serious these investigations were, and how experienced and dedicated the staff were. Are these people little old ladies volunteering with a telephone, or experienced investigators?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Why would Marion care about the car if she never intended to return to her old life?

It was the money she wanted and was referring to in the supposed call, she had left Sally the car to sell, or for Sally to sell hers car and keep Marion's and deposit the money into her account

 

[Mjjj14]

Why would Marion care about the car if she never intended to return to her old life?

Well, and I know this sounds awful, but perhaps it was a callous way of saying “stop looking for me, here’s proof it’s me, now leave me alone”. Maybe she thought that it would deter Sally/family from looking for her for a bit while she figured out what she would do next.

In a nutshell, she probably didn’t care about the car, perhaps it was just a way for her to get people to stop looking for her since it was an identifying piece of information that only she would’ve known. Just purely speculative on my behalf but I just can’t work out how a third part would have information about the car without speaking with Marion herself.

I agree that Betty Browns evidence was quite confusing (re her relationship with the QLD police and getting info from them rather than NSW police etc) but she is quite elderly and memories do deteriorate with the passage of time too. But yes I would love to know what the family tracing service actually consisted of.

 

[Meligator]

These details make me lean toward her being victim of some elaborate scam. I feel like there was some urgency/desperation/pressure on her to disappear & get the money. If it was just her, without an accomplice, why go to the UK before tidying up all loose ends (needing to cancel car insurance/eye-doctor appointment/transferring funds). Why not just sell the car herself before leaving (if that money is going to be important)? Its like as soon as her passport arrived (assuming it took a few weeks after applying) she immediately hopped on a plane--even though some things were still unfinished. There was some urgency to get to the UK and then some urgency to get all her money out of her account.

I'm imagining someone convincing her they will be married and live together in Luxembourg, but she needs to meet him overseas immediately and cannot yet tell anyone about their relationship (insert elaborate ruse). Once Marion arrives overseas, her partner introduces some urgent need (different ruse) for her to return to AU & transfer her money to him overseas, while still requiring she remain secretive about their relationship (i.e., just tell the bank you are starting a new life, so they get suspicious).

Why would Marion care about the car if she never intended to return to her old life?

It was the money she wanted and was referring to in the supposed call, she had left Sally the car to sell, or for Sally to sell hers car and keep Marion's and deposit the money into her account

 

[brjakj]

Yes, cancelling the insurance policy is a pretty obscure thing for an imposter to attend to .... that’s a weird one .... unless they had her wallet and just went through the cards, checking expiry dates and cancelling things, h’mm, I guess that’s possible.
PS: A new conversations episode dropped last night, The Inquest Part 2.

generally when you cancel an insurance policy there is a refund of premiums. I wonder how this was paid. If it was by cheque maybe that could be traced?

 

[LCJ]

generally when you cancel an insurance policy there is a refund of premiums. I wonder how this was paid. If it was by cheque maybe that could be traced?

Interesting.... It was cancelled when the person first returned to Australia as well. Could have used the refund to fund travels in Australia?

 

[brjakj]

Another thought:

suppose Marion did get married overseas, then came back to Australia to tie up loose ends and withdraw her cash to take back overseas. Then she met with foul play. Wouldn’t the new husband (assuming he isn’t involved) be concerned when she didn’t return?

would he lodge a missing person report in the country he is in?

could there be anything in newspapers overseas about it?

has anyone searched newspapers in the uk and Luxembourg from 1997 to see if there are any articles about a missing person?

and have the police checked with the police in these countries to see if any missing person reports were lodged?

 

[JLZ]

Due to the lack of photo, two people could have been using the same card as they do not expire until 10 years.

(Snipped) No, that's not right. The last digit of the Medicare number identifies the card issue. When a new card is issued, the old card is no longer valid even if it hasn't expired. Medicare wouldn't have paid for the service if a replaced card was presented.

 

[Mjjj14]

I think it was the original phone operator from the bank that told Sally this, which would make sense if she was concerned about the banking activity.

I just have to correct myself from my previous post. In episode 4. Taken, Jack Wilson’s notes given to the Salvation Army family tracing service are read out. According to these notes it was the Byron Bay police who said to start at Byron Bay. The full quote is;

“I asked what identification had been made, they said the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and had been told that she didn’t want her whereabouts known. They said that the bank security are like police and they were satisfied with their identification and that if I wanted to probe further, get a private detective and start at Byron Bay”.

I know that this is third or fourth hand information but it really is a bit strange considering that there was no security officer at Byron bay. Maybe there was a security officer who dealt with a whole region and not just one branch?

 

[Jroamcleveland]

Looks like this just got blown wide open with new information.

"And a postcard emerges from Marion’s sister Deirdre, dated after Marion’s passport returned to Australia on 2 August, 1997, and posted from the UK which references her meeting a dentist and a lady named Mazz."

How horrible to think that Marions sister has been sitting on this info the whole time. We've got the dentist and this Mazz character..... I feel this is getting warm.

 

[JLZ]

Looks like this just got blown wide open with new information.

"And a postcard emerges from Marion’s sister Deirdre, dated after Marion’s passport returned to Australia on 2 August, 1997, and posted from the UK which references her meeting a dentist and a lady named Mazz."

How horrible to think that Marions sister has been sitting on this info the whole time. We've got the dentist and this Mazz character..... I feel this is getting warm.

Who met the dentist and Mazz? Deirdre, Marion, both? Were Deirdre and Marion in contact with one another in the UK? Please tell me, I can't podcast.

 

[Mjjj14]

I just wanted to stress, stress, stress for clarity that the family and the podcast DID know that there were postcards that arrived after the 2 August 2021. This was mentioned in episode 4. Taken when Jack Wilson's notes given to the Salvation Army Family Tracing Service are read out by a voice actor. Jack speculated in his notes as to whether Marion had someone else post the postcards or whether it was Marion herself sending them and didn't in fact return to Australia.

What is new information is the contents of that postcard. If I am wrong in thinking this please let me know.

The above isn't directed at anyone at all, I just wanted to say this again (I know it's been mentioned a few times in this thread) just for abundance of clarity because I think the postcard information is sort of confusing.

 

[Mjjj14]

Who met the dentist and Mazz? Deirdre, Marion, both? Were Deirdre and Marion in contact with one another in the UK? Please tell me, I can't podcast.

It isn't mentioned in the new episode. Someone asked on the fb page and they said that it will be covered in a later episode.

 

[angeliquemarkos1]

First time Poster, long time follower of the case.
A lot doesn't add up - starting with the amounts that were withdrawn and nothing being flagged, down to the Luxembourg connection, and the whole Florabella name change.

I hold the belief Marion returned on duress, or it was not she who returned.

I do not believe that she would have risked being seen in Byron Bay taking out money or in Burleigh Heads, way too risky.

Surely some customs records in 1997 still exist, perhaps showing arrivals into Brisbane, as well as those who left the same day, could be the same person, or perhaps a Remekel too?

Also not sold on F Remekel not holding info, even if he doesn't know who Marion is surely he posted the ad?

Also wanted to add that the inquest doesn't seem to be shedding much light so far which is unfortunate for Sally, hopefully we get some more answers shortly.

 

[LCJ]

I find the Grafton stopover to be an interesting one. I am from Grafton, and my father used to work on the trains and buses in Grafton around this time. After speaking to my father, travelling from Sydney to Grafton back in 1997 could have been an 8-hour drive or the XPT train trip, which would have been a whole day trip from Sydney to Grafton. This train trip on the XPT would have ended at Grafton as this is where this route stopped. The train does not go to Byron Bay either, so passengers then had to book to go on the bus from Grafton to Byron Bay.

Maybe the person either decided to stay in Grafton at this point or had to because the bus was full. To get into Grafton, the person would have had to get a taxi or walk across the bridge as the train would have stopped in South Grafton. Grafton Shopping World is about 2km from the train station. If they stayed in Grafton, there are a couple of places across from Grafton Shopping World that could have been convenient places to stay, particularly if they were on the train/bus network and using a taxi to get from South Grafton to Grafton.

Was there any activity between Sydney and Grafton or just at Grafton?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I think it's more likely that someone from Europe posted the ad, probably using the Remakel name as they thought that it would be famous worldwide and not just in Europe. I doubt that it was THE Fernand Remakel who posted it.

I for one had never heard of Fernand Remakel. But maybe Marion might have through her time with Johnny Warren.

Also not sold on F Remekel not holding info, even if he doesn't know who Marion is surely he posted the ad?