well if the money were still there and given how long it’s been, it would have been sent to unclaimed moneys with asic. Since there is no record of any account other than the one linked to Barclays we can only assume there was no money left
Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4
- Thread starter inkpink
- Start date
Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
New Posts
-
Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #197
- Latest: steeltowngirl
- Status
well if the money were still there and given how long it’s been, it would have been sent to unclaimed moneys with asic. Since there is no record of any account other than the one linked to Barclays we can only assume there was no money left
TootsieFootsie
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2012
- Messages
- 13,878
- Reaction score
- 93,409
It really struck me, looking at a certain photo of Marion, that she would not have been out of place in a Jane Austin novel.
D
Deleted member 249471
Guest
Really good question worth asking 
On the one had, we have no physical evidence of the daily $5000 withdrawals at Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads. Which is why the inquest isn't discussing that part of the story. But, it does not change that NSW Police believe Marion suspiciously disappeared after her account was drained, and they are investigating it as a possible homicide. No evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen. Sometimes no evidence means there was a really good cover up.
On the other hand, there is anecdotal evidence.
Sally rang the bank's telebanking service and gave them Marion's bank account number. How often do you give your bank account and staff pull up the wrong account? Either on purpose or as a joke? It's technically possible, yes! But the odds of that happening are astronomically high. Like one in a billion. And given that there really was unusual behaviour on Marion's account, separate to that, then I'm inclined to give the telebanking incident a rating of 'extremely likely that it happened'.
I also think the telebanking person was a smart and very capable person who was good at their job. Because bank staff are SUPPOSED to be on the alert for exactly that type of thing. If it was a joke or accident, then lucky it happened because it triggered a search that found Marion's bank was drained, regardless of the $5000 withdrawals.
It's a damn shame there are no records of the Byron Bay withdrawals because those transaction would've revealed a lot!
On the one had, we have no physical evidence of the daily $5000 withdrawals at Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads. Which is why the inquest isn't discussing that part of the story. But, it does not change that NSW Police believe Marion suspiciously disappeared after her account was drained, and they are investigating it as a possible homicide. No evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen. Sometimes no evidence means there was a really good cover up.
On the other hand, there is anecdotal evidence.
Sally rang the bank's telebanking service and gave them Marion's bank account number. How often do you give your bank account and staff pull up the wrong account? Either on purpose or as a joke? It's technically possible, yes! But the odds of that happening are astronomically high. Like one in a billion. And given that there really was unusual behaviour on Marion's account, separate to that, then I'm inclined to give the telebanking incident a rating of 'extremely likely that it happened'.
I also think the telebanking person was a smart and very capable person who was good at their job. Because bank staff are SUPPOSED to be on the alert for exactly that type of thing. If it was a joke or accident, then lucky it happened because it triggered a search that found Marion's bank was drained, regardless of the $5000 withdrawals.
It's a damn shame there are no records of the Byron Bay withdrawals because those transaction would've revealed a lot!
Yeah that’s right actually, there is only the $14k in unclaimed monies. That probably clears that up easily.
It’s such a shame there’s no records because even just the frequency of transactions and the individual amounts withdrawn would be so interesting to look at.
Really good question worth asking
On the one had, we have no physical evidence of the daily $5000 withdrawals at Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads. Which is why the inquest isn't discussing that part of the story. But, it does not change that NSW Police believe Marion suspiciously disappeared after her account was drained, and they are investigating it as a possible homicide. No evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen. Sometimes no evidence means there was a really good cover up.
On the other hand, there is anecdotal evidence.
Sally rang the bank's telebanking service and gave them Marion's bank account number. How often do you give your bank account and staff pull up the wrong account? Either on purpose or as a joke? It's technically possible, yes! But the odds of that happening are astronomically high. Like one in a billion. And given that there really was unusual behaviour on Marion's account, separate to that, then I'm inclined to give the telebanking incident a rating of 'extremely likely that it happened'.
I also think the telebanking person was a smart and very capable person who was good at their job. Because bank staff are SUPPOSED to be on the alert for exactly that type of thing. If it was a joke or accident, then lucky it happened because it triggered a search that found Marion's bank was drained, regardless of the $5000 withdrawals.
It's a damn shame there are no records of the Byron Bay withdrawals because those transaction would've revealed a lot!
I agree that it’s extremely likely it happened too. I suppose what I would really be seeking clarification on is the frequency of withdrawals and individual amounts withdrawn. Like you said, the Byron Bay transactions would be so interesting to know more about. It’s so unfortunate that those records are gone to the passage of time.
D
Deleted member 249471
Guest
The $5000 withdrawals really make me think.
We now know that those transactions should have been flagged and triggered a Suspicious Activity Report because they were a lot of money withdrawn on consecutive days at a bank the customer was not a regular at. Also keep in mind that banks don't want to lose their money.
Given this information, it can only mean four things.
If it was a conman or imposter, then:
1. they got lucky the bank didn't do it's job and didn't care about losing money
2. they were in cahoots with someone at the bank
If Marion withdrew her own money, then:
3. she got lucky the bank didn't do it's job and didn't care about losing money
4. she was in cahoots with someone at the bank
I'm guessing #4 is out of the question.
#1 and #3 require large amounts of random luck to grace you everyday for 3.5 weeks.
That leaves #2.
Just speculating
We now know that those transactions should have been flagged and triggered a Suspicious Activity Report because they were a lot of money withdrawn on consecutive days at a bank the customer was not a regular at. Also keep in mind that banks don't want to lose their money.
Given this information, it can only mean four things.
If it was a conman or imposter, then:
1. they got lucky the bank didn't do it's job and didn't care about losing money
2. they were in cahoots with someone at the bank
If Marion withdrew her own money, then:
3. she got lucky the bank didn't do it's job and didn't care about losing money
4. she was in cahoots with someone at the bank
I'm guessing #4 is out of the question.
#1 and #3 require large amounts of random luck to grace you everyday for 3.5 weeks.
That leaves #2.
Just speculating
Lord Peter Flimsy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2020
- Messages
- 912
- Reaction score
- 8,346
The postbox in The Pantiles in Tunbridge Wells is not hard to miss. As I believe Marion was staying at The Swan in The Pantiles it’s barely a few dozen yards to it. I don’t think she would have asked the hotel to post them. I also don’t think the perpetrator realised Marion was sending them or phoning her daughter.
Attachments
The $5000 withdrawals really make me think.
We now know that those transactions should have been flagged and triggered a Suspicious Activity Report because they were a lot of money withdrawn on consecutive days at a bank the customer was not a regular at. Also keep in mind that banks don't want to lose their money.
Given this information, it can only mean four things.
If there was a conman or imposter, then:
1. they got lucky the bank didn't do it's job and didn't care about losing money
2. they were in cahoots with someone at the bank
If Marion withdrew her own money, then:
3. she got lucky the bank didn't do it's job and didn't care about losing money
4. she was in cahoots with someone at the bank
I'm guessing #4 is out of the question.
#1 and #3 require large amounts of random luck to grace you everyday for 3.5 weeks.
That leaves #2.
Just speculating
I’m wondering how exactly that account Marion had operated. For example - if she did want to buy a property (even a property overseas for example) would the $5k withdrawal limit still have applied?
Thank goodness someone knew she had this account and that at least this limb of the mystery is somewhat resolved.
You are so right though the more I think about the banking aspect.
She had no card for her account as it was not replaced? (That is correct isn’t it?) so she had to have produced some sort of identification at the bank in order to access her money at all. I say this because when I go to the bank, I simply show them one of my debit or credit cards and that serves the purpose of identifying me in most regular transactions. Her bank accounts were by the sounds of things still in the name of Marion Barter so her current Florabella passport wouldn’t have worked for identification. If Marion or whoever was accessing her bank accounts went into the bank, they would really have needed to show her drivers licence.
The fact that there’s no evidence of suspicious activity reports being done for these withdrawals is just too odd with that many transactions. This makes me think now that scenarios 1 and 3 just can’t have happened on the balance of probabilities and if this did happen, I’m alarmed!
Does anyone know what a suspicious activity report entailed? Maybe it was as simple as contacting the customer to ask what they were doing with the money? But then again, how would they have even contacted her?
The other thing that is so weird and at odds with the imposter theory is the cancelling of the NRMA insurance policy. Would an imposter have known that this policy even existed? The other possible scenario with this is that Sally herself might have cancelled it but forgot, but would the NRMA have even let her cancel the policy as it was not in her name?
D
Deleted member 249471
Guest
That's great Lord Peter! Do we know when Marion was there exactly?
It would be great to form a clearer timeline. From what I understand Marion sent items from London, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, Brighton, and Hastings, but I'm not entirely sure my notes are correct. Feel free to add corrections
22 June 1997
30 June 1997
It would be great to form a clearer timeline. From what I understand Marion sent items from London, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, Brighton, and Hastings, but I'm not entirely sure my notes are correct. Feel free to add corrections
22 June 1997
- Marion tells family and friends she is going to England for possibly a year.
- Passenger card states she's permanently leaving for Luxembourg and her flight departs from Australia and arrives in England, which is crossed out and replaced with South Korea.
30 June 1997
- Sally receives letter postmarked Tunbridge Wells, on stationery from Narita, Japan
- Sally/relative receives postcards postmarked Brighton, Kent, Sussex Coast and London.
- Sally receives postcard postmarked 7 July from Hastings.
- Also sent letters/postcards to some of her students during this period.
- Sent early gift to sister for her 7 August birthday.
- Original date Marion’s was going to travel on Orient Express.
- Marion calls Sally and claims she's at a Tunbridge Wells payphone.
- Says she won't be calling or sending postcards for a while in order to enjoy vacation.
- Marion's Florabella passport arrives in Australia.
- Postcards arrive in Australia from Marion in England.
Last edited by a moderator:
I’ve always just thought that this was her getting confused filling out the card. In my mind, she likely misunderstood the fact she needed to write the stopover destination and not the final destination. I just chalked it up to the fact that she wasn’t a regular traveller and didn’t realise.
Either scenario is possible though!
That's great Lord Peter! Do we know when Marion was there exactly?
It would be great to form a clearer timeline. From what I understand Marion sent items from London, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, Brighton, and Hastings, but I'm not entirely sure my notes are correct. Feel free to add corrections
22 June 1997
(Did she even know she was going to South Korea? If she bought her own ticket, she would know, surely!)
- Marion tells family and friends she is going to England for possibly a year.
- Passenger card states she's permanently leaving for Luxembourg and her flight departs from Australia and arrives in England, which is crossed out and replaced with South Korea.
30 June 1997
July 1997
- Sally receives letter postmarked Tunbridge Wells, on stationery from Narita, Japan
15 July 1997
- Sally/relative receives postcards postmarked Brighton, Kent, Sussex Coast and London.
- Sally receives postcard postmarked 7 July from Hastings.
- Also sent letters/postcards to some of her students during this period.
- Sent early gift to sister for her 7 August birthday.
31 July - 1 August 1997
- Original date Marion’s was going to travel on Orient Express.
2 August 1997
- Marion calls Sally and claims she's at a Tunbridge Wells payphone.
- Says she won't be calling or sending postcards for a while in order to enjoy vacation.
August 1997
- Marion's Florabella passport arrives in Australia.
- Postcards arrive in Australia from Marion in England.
Great timeline. I’m not sure if you wanted to add the events after the passport arrived in Australia, but I’ve just quoted your previous timeline as a refresher. The only thing I can see we need to add is the $80000 withdrawal from Ashmore. Was that the 5th October?
Ps- I’m on my phone and cannot edit my previous post. However I just wanted to clarify that by NRMA, I meant RACQ (these two things are the same but have different names in different states). In any case I meant car insurance/roadside assistance!
Can anyone recall when Sally said she sold Marion’s car? I remember that Marion’s father was told that Marion was upset about the car money but I can’t recall when the car was actually sold.
Can anyone recall when Sally said she sold Marion’s car? I remember that Marion’s father was told that Marion was upset about the car money but I can’t recall when the car was actually sold.
I can’t recall who (maybe bank employee), someone told Sally she should start by looking in Byron Bay. I always wondered if that was just a flippant comment or a suggestion based on some real knowledge.
I know there are questions about who from the bank told police Marion was planning on starting a new life—but that info had to have come from someplace. While the police weren’t very helpful initially— I don’t think the police would invent such a detailed story involving specific amounts/dates of transactions. The police/salvo may have gotten some of the details wrong (wasn’t a security officer), but the police must have gotten that info from someone.
I know there are questions about who from the bank told police Marion was planning on starting a new life—but that info had to have come from someplace. While the police weren’t very helpful initially— I don’t think the police would invent such a detailed story involving specific amounts/dates of transactions. The police/salvo may have gotten some of the details wrong (wasn’t a security officer), but the police must have gotten that info from someone.
TootsieFootsie
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2012
- Messages
- 13,878
- Reaction score
- 93,409
Just realised I spelled Jane Austen's surname wrong in my post.
I have been making a few mistakes since I came down with this flu
I have been making a few mistakes since I came down with this flu
Lord Peter Flimsy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2020
- Messages
- 912
- Reaction score
- 8,346
That's great Lord Peter! Do we know when Marion was there exactly?
It would be great to form a clearer timeline. From what I understand Marion sent items from London, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, Brighton, and Hastings, but I'm not entirely sure my notes are correct. Feel free to add corrections
22 June 1997
(Did she even know she was going to South Korea? If she bought her own ticket, she would know, surely!)
- Marion tells family and friends she is going to England for possibly a year.
- Passenger card states she's permanently leaving for Luxembourg and her flight departs from Australia and arrives in England, which is crossed out and replaced with South Korea.
30 June 1997
July 1997
- Sally receives letter postmarked Tunbridge Wells, on stationery from Narita, Japan
15 July 1997
- Sally/relative receives postcards postmarked Brighton, Kent, Sussex Coast and London.
- Sally receives postcard postmarked 7 July from Hastings.
- Also sent letters/postcards to some of her students during this period.
- Sent early gift to sister for her 7 August birthday.
31 July - 1 August 1997
- Original date Marion’s was going to travel on Orient Express.
2 August 1997
- Marion calls Sally and claims she's at a Tunbridge Wells payphone.
- Says she won't be calling or sending postcards for a while in order to enjoy vacation.
August 1997
- Marion's Florabella passport arrives in Australia.
- Postcards arrive in Australia from Marion in England.
It still hasn’t been established where exactly Marion stayed. We have never found anyone in the UK who remembers her but that’s not surprising given the time lapse, however with my local knowledge there are 2 hotels foreign visitors preferred to stay in Tun Wells at that time. The Royal Wells or The Swan Hotel.
The Swan Hotel meets her description of quaint and is in The Pantiles itself. I have found the person who was front of house at the hotel in the summer of 1997 but despite numerous requests from me asking whether he remembers any female Australian tourists (I sent him Marion’s photo) he has failed to respond. Very frustrating.
TootsieFootsie
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2012
- Messages
- 13,878
- Reaction score
- 93,409
I spent some time looking over the 1997 photos, with my big Sherlock Holmes magnifying glass but couldn't make out anyone that I thought resembled Marion.
Sorry you didn't get a response to your request.
Sorry you didn't get a response to your request.
TootsieFootsie
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2012
- Messages
- 13,878
- Reaction score
- 93,409
I don't think it's impossible that the hotel would have posted them for her.
Perhaps Marion would have been charmed by a service like that. It may have made her feel like she was in an olde worlde hotel, like out of Agatha Christie. I can see her liking that.
Perhaps Marion would have been charmed by a service like that. It may have made her feel like she was in an olde worlde hotel, like out of Agatha Christie. I can see her liking that.
One thing I'm not clear about. When Betty Brown contacted the police in 1998 & got info that came from the bank officer (that Marion wanted to start a new life/closed her account), was that info the police had gathered in 1997 when Sally first went to police OR did the police reach out to the bank in 1998, specifically b/c Betty Brown asked for information? Someone at the bank knows something.
vivienbee
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2019
- Messages
- 316
- Reaction score
- 2,125
I think it's strange that someone (Marion or a third party) began draining the bank account in $5,000 increments and then at some point was just like, you know what, let's just go for gold and withdraw $80,000 in one go. I know there's speculation that this was somehow done via making some kind of equity purchase but why even bother doing something that is likely to flag suspicion and then throw in the original plan to make a giant withdrawal? It seems poorly thought out for a con scheme, although admittedly it did work so
I wonder if the police ever checked austrac records in relation to the $80k withdrawal/telegraphic transfer.
also seems odd that there was no record of a drivers licence in qld. Normally when you move interstate you surrender your old licence in the state you have moved to not in the one you are moving from and then they send it back to the old state. Well that’s my experience anyway.
also seems odd that there was no record of a drivers licence in qld. Normally when you move interstate you surrender your old licence in the state you have moved to not in the one you are moving from and then they send it back to the old state. Well that’s my experience anyway.
- Status