Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[TootsieFootsie]

Welcome to WebSleuths, Bibno!

I’m really pleased to have found this forum. I’ve been fascinated by this case for ages.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

What about the postcard from London that Lesley Loveday received.

"“She said she received a postcard but there was nothing on the back of the postcard.

"It was a postcard from London, that was it. No writing, no nothing.”

Also where did Marion stay the night she told Sally she was staying at Lesley Lovedays.

“I rang there one night to speak to mum, but Lesley told me that Mum had told her earlier that she was going to stay with me that night,” Leydon said in the statement.

The Lady Vanishes: Marion Barter mystery deepens after two clues left by strangers

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Daughter of missing woman Marion Barter reveals 'something happened' to her mum before she vanished | Daily Mail Online

Schoolteacher Marion Barter appeared happy and content with life before 'something happened' in the months before she vanished, a NSW coroner has been told.

Sally Leydon, who has led the charge to find her mother, said her mother's decision to quit her job at The Southport School in the middle of 1997 was 'out of character'.

 

[irregularcalamity]

If this was a childhood nickname based on a mispronunciation -- the name could be most anything.

jmho ymmv lrr

Agreed, I have an aunt called Susan who has always been known as Maz.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Was there something in the rest of her name that could lead to the nickname.

Anyway heaps of people are known as something that isn't just a short verson of their name.

Agreed, I have an aunt called Susan who has always been known as Maz.

 

[vivienbee]

Was there something in the rest of her name that could lead to the nickname.

Anyway heaps of people are known as something that isn't just a short verson of their name.

Yeah, super off topic but my nickname is Miggy which has absolutely zero to do with my actual name!

ON topic - it's odd IMO to send a postcard that doesn't have any writing on it whatsoever, but I guess that some people just like to collect them so perhaps it wasn't strange to her if that was something Marion knew/routinely did if she went anywhere.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

If she did get the hotel or someone else to post them, maybe that unfinished one was included by mistake.

Or maybe by that time, Marion realised she was in danger from someone and only managed to write Lesley's name and address on it.

ON topic - it's odd IMO to send a postcard that doesn't have any writing on it whatsoever, but I guess that some people just like to collect them so perhaps it wasn't strange to her if that was something Marion knew/routinely did if she went anywhere.

 

[JLZ]

How was the postcard addressed if it had no writing on it? Was it in an envelope? Or do they mean it had the address written but nothing else?

Edit: Ah, Tootsie, thanks, I must have been skimming.

 

[JLZ]

Please could someone explain about the postcard from Deirdre? Was Deirdre in the UK around the same time as Marion and sent a postcard back to Australia mentioning seeing someone called "Mazz" just after Marion supposedly returned to Australia? Is Deirdre dead or can't be asked what she meant for some reason? I mean the obvious guess would be that Mazz was Marion.

 

[vivienbee]

Does anyone have a full image of the postcard she sent to Sally? I know part of it was included in the recent handwriting samples posted but does the full version exist? Sorry if this is part of an earlier thread that I've missed.

 

[Estelle]

It's really hard to tell with the handwriting because Marion's changes so frequently, even in terms of characteristics. However, there are some striking similarities across the handwriting samples that make me think that it was Marion who filled out both passenger cards. I'm not an expert but it's an area that I'm really interested in, and a lot of the time it's not how visually similar the letters are but how they are formed, as people have natural habits that they probably aren't even aware of.

One characteristic that sticks out to me is the way that Marion in multiple samples writes her capital 'E'. If you look, you can see that she forms what I am nicknaming a 'fragmented E', where the letter looks as though it is collapsing/exploding - the dashes that form the 'E' don't touch the original strike of the letter and they sort of collapse into each other at an angle. In my opinion, this is consistent throughout the samples.

There are other letters, too, with which this is the case but this is probably the most noticeable.

I understand what you are saying but an experienced criminal scammer would have made sure they had an example of Marion's handwriting and signature, maybe specially practised these particular letters you have pointed to and forged her handwriting and signature. Otherwise, the scam might not have been as successful.

This might also account for the inconsistencies in the handwriting.

My signature was forged once by a salesperson!

 

[Estelle]

I think so too. She has so many styles - some of her As are triangles and some are square. Some 4s are open and others are closed.

But it's the Ls that do it for me... the bottom line is never straight but slightly curves up with a little hump in all the samples. Almost like a tiny h. Which is unique.

This case takes so many twists and turns, it's hard to commit to any one theory because none and all make sense!

It is also possible that the postcards were sent after she returned to Australia as part of the scam - as in, it was never supposed to be known she returned and accounts were drained. The conman might've been working with someone else, and they wanted to make it look as though Marion was fine in England for as long as possible to give themselves time. Who knows.

BBM

I would predict that the postcards were sent after Marion supposedly returned to Australia (or her impersonator did), by the other scammer in the UK as a smokescreen to give them time to carry out their scam here. The writing on those postcards could have also been forged or Marion actually wrote them (either voluntarily or being forced to) before her life was ended but had not got around to posting them.

 

[Bibno]

I don’t know if it’s still the case, but hotels in England used to offer a postal service where they would either have their own non-Royal Mail small post box or you would give them your letters and postcards and they would put them in the post for you. Using this service would have delayed actual posting and therefore postmarking.

Post was treated more urgently then than it is today, and I think most post boxes would have had 7 day collection at that time.

Items are not postmarked until they are received at the sorting office.

It’s possible that Marion could have posted something and it not be postmarked for a few days after it left Marion’s possession.

 

[Mjjj14]

JMO but a scam artist/Marion impersonator would not have been able to sit on a plane with a sample of Marion's handwriting in order to copy her handwriting on the incoming passenger card.

Also JMO but the writing is too similar for someone to have produced a copy of that likeness on a plane (turbulence, writing on a little tray table, being watched by the neighbouring passengers etc etc). More than one hand writing expert says it is likely her writing as does Sally so I am more inclined to chalk the differences in writing up to a bumpy ride/rushed circumstances than someone else trying to replicate Marion's writing. I would love to see a handwriting expert give evidence about the likelihood that this was in fact Marion's writing, as I myself am no expert.

The other thing that I wanted to note was that I was not surprised to find that the poor old optometrist had no notes or recollections! It can be SO hard to track down old medical records, I think its such a win by itself that we know it was an optometrist and not a medical practitioner, as it to some extent rules out the theory that Marion was unwell and had disappeared so as not to put her family through the suffering of her illness. So yay to finding him anyway!

One thing that really stood out to me was that Marion changed her name by deed poll PRIOR to marrying one of her previous husbands. This is a pattern of behaviour that she repeats again when she changes her name to Florabella Remakel. I think patterns of behaviour like this are interesting and important to note. The fact she told her friend in what seemed to be described as a blasé manner seemed to jump out at me.

I suppose one theory I think is most likely at the moment (and have always considered most likely) is that Marion got caught up in some sort of old school catfishing scam (before catfishing was a 'thing'). I know this theory has been discussed before so I will be brief.

FR is not a common or household sporting name in Australia but perhaps it may have been to those who followed football in the EU at the time (particularly in Lux and France). Someone impersonating FR writes in Le Courrier. Maybe Marion does start corresponding with this person. Maybe this person was art centre man. I can imagine a lot of people being impressed that they were talking romantically with a former football star (even if just in their home country). It's not like google was prevalent and you could just quickly look up the real FR to check what he looked like. Since Marion had a former connection to football maybe she would have been impressed by his sporting resume lie.

I think that it's possible that when Marion returned to Australia to collect the remainder of her money, she may not have chosen to stay here. I know that her Florabella passport didn't leave the country again and that she wasn't issued another under any other name but I think it may have been a lot easier back in the late 90's to get false documents. Therefore, I think it's likely she could have gone out of the country again on a false passport (maybe acquired by someone else for her such as whoever she was romantically involved with).

For me, the fact that she had changed her name by deed poll before PRIOR to marriage is an indication of the fact that she was planning to marry and take this surname.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

As far as I know, no images of any of the postcards have been released.

The handwriting samples contain all the images I found on Marion's missing persons fb page. There are no postcards in that batch, mostly passenger cards and part of the Narita Japan letter.

In the podcast, there are some mentions of some of the postmarks, but it hasn't really been dissected in full - exactly what the dates were and what was written in them.

Does anyone have a full image of the postcard she sent to Sally? I know part of it was included in the recent handwriting samples posted but does the full version exist? Sorry if this is part of an earlier thread that I've missed.

 

[Estelle]

As far as I'm aware (I don't have a Medicare card so don't quote me), there is no photo ID on the card. It might be possible that if someone down on their luck happened to find the card they might have just tried tried to use it. (I'm not saying that's what happened, just musing aloud.)

I thought for a while that it might have been related to when she got her wallet stolen in 1994, if someone had just kept the card, but I assume she would have cancelled the card in that instance so I no longer believe that's possible as it would have flagged the system/been invalid.

Good point. If my wallet was stolen, I would not have thought of cancelling my Medicare card as I would have with my credit cards. I would simply ask for a replacement card. Due to the lack of photo, two people could have been using the same card as they do not expire until 10 years.

In my scenario. the mission of the female impersonator would have been to get in and out of Australia as soon as they could with as much money as they could plus sending or selling the antiques - not to go sightseeing and use Marion's Medicare card for an optometry appointment.

 

[KiwiNZ]

In my scenario. the mission of the female impersonator would have been to get in and out of Australia as soon as they could with as much money as they could plus sending or selling the antiques - not to go sightseeing and use Marion's Medicare card for an optometry appointment.[/QUOTE]

They would have had an issue leaving on a different passport, happened to me as I travel on a NZ and UK passport, entered Aus on my NZ one and then tried to leave on my UK one, I got picked up straight away. That was in 1994, I missed my flight, it was a right drama as my NZ passport was in my bag on the plane.

Not saying they didn't eventually get out if this was the case but they would not have been allowed to leave until the authorities had figured out how they arrived. There would be a record of it. If they are smart enough to come up with an international scam you would think this would have occurred to them, and I have racked my brain as to how they could of got around it, maybe someone has some ideas

 

[Deleted member 249471]

This has been said before, many threads ago, so I can’t take credit for it.

On 10 Dec 1994, there were just two lonely heart ads, known as ‘rencontres' placed in the Le Courrier Australien. One is from Monsieur Remakel, the other is this:

French, 50 years old, blonde, blue eyed, 1.52m, slim, youthful looking, love healthy and simple life, seek sober French speaking man or man having French interests. Write to Marie Llimos, 221 Fontaines Ave, Wallace-St-Pierre, 84500

Could Marie Llimos be Mazz? Monsieur Remakel's accomplice? Or Marion’s imposter? A separate con? Or a genuine search for love? She’s supposedly just a year older than Marion at the time, and blue eyed.

All the other ads in the classifieds that day were not lonely hearts, they were language exchange, house swap, looking for work, offer of services, etc.

So now I’m curious to know if these two 'rencontres' were common or an anomaly for that paper? Basically, are there others?

If some of you feel like sleuthing, why not head over to Trove and see if there are any other ‘rencontres’ in issues around that time. If so, what are their names? Are they similar or different to the Remakel and Llimos ads? Any clues if they are scams or genuine?

 

[Mjjj14]

I just have to post this because I can't dismiss this thought from my mind unless we discuss it...

If there are no banking records in existence indicating that those $5,000 withdrawals occurred, do we REALLY know that they did in fact occur?

The bank employee on the phone broke the rules by giving Sally this information, who is to say that it was in fact true and correct information? She could have just been some unhinged person that decided to tell a lie. She probably wasn't and it probably did happen but since there's no evidence of it, is it still gospel truth? I hope that makes some semblance of sense. Could the amount and number of withdrawals have been incorrect etc?

*** I am in no way doubting that Sally was told this information and in no way doubt that what Sally is saying is true to the best of her knowledge ***

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Interesting. It makes a lot of sense. I understand how the imposter could get money out of Marion's banks at Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads - they didn't know what Marion looked like as she'd never banked at those branches before.

But how did the imposter get the $80,000 from Ashmore, her usual bank where she had just sold her house and had her mortgage discharged just a month and a half earlier?

What reason did the imposter give the bank to withdraw such a large amount? As we know, the bank flags large amounts for money laundering.

And how did the imposter get the $180,000 out of the country (it's like 300,000 in today's money)? Plus the art and antiques?

Also, why make Marion change her name? What purpose did that serve? I still don't get it

Because if Remakel is one of their real names, it would've been far easier/safer to leave Marion's name as is, no? Or change it to ANY other name! Why was it so important for Marion to have those initials?

Genuinely curious All these theories are very plausible.

I can only manage to put together great theories for fractions of the story. I fall short on connecting all the dots

Can someone just tell me what happened to Marion? Please and thanks.

In my scenario. the mission of the female impersonator would have been to get in and out of Australia as soon as they could with as much money as they could plus sending or selling the antiques - not to go sightseeing and use Marion's Medicare card for an optometry appointment.