Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

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I now think you are correct, Mishy, as we have more information since you first posted your theory of DW and WW meeting in Sydney in 1970. IMO it is too much of a coincidence that WW would go to the UK and choose to book on the Chusan to return to Australia as he usually flew via Qantas in those days. Even though he left with IK on the same flight, it appears that he used IK to get residency in Australia. It looks as if he must have used faked documents for the Marriage Certificate as they both arrived putting Never Married on their Arrival cards and on leaving, he put Divorced. I doubt that RB has ever worked as a photographer in his life but he put it on his departure card.

The only business we know about which DW's parents had was a cafe. So my theory used to be that he either worked there for them or went there often for a coffee. My guess it was either in Bondi or Paddington. This gave him the opportunity to spin his stories to DW and her parents and they were probably impressed. During these conversations, they probably told him that they had booked a cruise on the Chusan.

But this theory cannot be correct as DW was overseas for 14 months in England as they returned in March, 1971 so they must have departed about January, 1970. WW did not arrive in Australia until 24 May 1969.

So did DW and WW simply meet at the hotel before embarking on the ship as RB told us? IMO it seems to be such an unusual thing for him to do unless he had prior knowledge of someone going on it. I had never heard of this ship before.

Had RB planned to travel on this ship to Australia to meet wealthy women just as Don Juan had done on trains?

I'd be interested to know your theories on this.

It is such a head spin isn't it. He is so so cunning!
I am still working through a couple of things with what I think went down with these two.
I am still down the WW/DCOD hole at the moment hahaha!
I think I must have come onboard after the Cafe was found? What was the cafe business as I have no info on that one.
At this stage, because I have no info on a cafe the parents owned, I was going down another track. So this info could eliminate that for me.
No I don't think he was using this ship to meet Diane.
But these are just my thoughts and as you can see previously I have some out there ones lol.
To be honest, I come from a point that I do not believe a thing that comes out of his mouth when it comes to him SOLELY, and I work backwards from that.o_O
Diane departed in Jan yes.
 

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Thanks. I have several timelines and one did not have the arrest listed. So RB would have arrived in Amsterdam on about 14th May, 1971 and within five weeks, he was arrested in France! The four years in prison must have been for previous crimes and perhaps a new crime where he was caught and arrested. Then he writes to DW from prison for four years. I wonder if her parents ever knew about his crimes. Maybe she used a POBox.
Remember Chusan files has D living at a different address to her parents. So most likely wouldn’t need a PO Box
 
No, I didnt say that.
What I said was, "So my thinking is MC had an affair with AB - who's real name is Desiré Charles Octave DAVID
Born 2 November 1895 - Le Péage-de-Roussillon, 38298, Isère, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, FRANCE
and had no choice but to change his name after the 1934 trial because he was a highly publicised branded criminal".
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood. I know that you were saying AW is actually Desiré Charles Octave DAVID but you also wrote "MC Married to - Désiré Jean-Pierre Joseph DAVID B1905- D1943", so I assumed you meant that was the husband she was married to and cheating on?
 
For my spreadsheet whizzes out there, would you recommend looking through the posts on the forum and working backwards? I'm going to go through and listen to the inquest for all of the dates from AC again but I don't know the best way to go about adding in all the additional info. I figure if I start from the beginning and work forwards a lot of stuff will turn out to be disproven...
 
I am learning toward mentor rather than father for these reasons: I can’t find a Belgium link for him. His wife died in Portugal he died in southern France. One child that I can find from her first marriage And no mention of children between the two. (That’s not to say they didn’t have kids)
she used Jeanne with first husband and a middle name Alice with Don Juan so there’s a lot of different trees.
Surprisingly not all trees list Alice’s brother Felix who was from my understanding a French ambassador. (If My French guessing translation is correct)

So the similarities between RB and Don Juan are uncanny BUT I cant find proof. At least not proper proof of birth certificate with Don Juan as the father of any male children.

But he may have changed his name.. which doesn’t explain his death certificate in his real name.

mishy’s take on it is an interesting theory due to the fact she is unable to find anything on Abel…. So him being Don Juan isn’t that left of field.. not when it comes to this case/name changes/and bizarre twists and turns.

If true it would also cement the early exposure to RB of changing identity at an early age when you get in hot water as I believe this is ingrained in him.

on the flip side it could just be that RB really has no idea who his birth parents are and has created a ‘fantasy’ a term he he likes to use.. and modelled himself on Don Juan. From learning or hearing about the famous train swindler man in his formative teen years. Because in his mind he naturally gravitated to a person like that rather than the family he was with whether they are adopted or real.

Don Juan was much more exciting to a person who is lost and looking for a place to belong.

and he’s a lazy arse.. so he found a career without actually having to work. :)

Oh I just love all of this @Eyespywithmylittleeye ! And absolutely it could be that old mate used DCOD "Don Juan' as a Mentor or as a guide after studying his life in later years. I agree completely and it really is the most logical and balanced outlook on it all. It would make it all the more viable to believe.

BUT for me personally, I don't believe that is what old mate did.
I am still going with it all as I am rather enjoying reading all the history of things.
And as this isn't a 'win a pony' at the end game for who was right or wrong but more to help eliminate any semblance of a theory /idea/hypothesis then that is what keeps me going. I take Sally's lead of exploring every avenue until it is a dead end. And that dead end might just be around the corner for me hahahaa!

I would be VERY surprised to find any birth certs on either AW or DCOD (if they are two different people) because of various factors - there is ZIP to go on in regard to AW - that very reasoning has kept me going with it - that is VERY odd. Even though there were wars, displacements of people, relatives of said people, you can usually find something, but there is nothing on him - not even on that EXTENSIVE Gen Tree that person did on over 80 000 people! .

AND...as you said "proper proof of birth certificate with Don Juan as the father"... OR for that matter proof of a birth certificate with AW and MC !.... of any male children is not to be found! ( at this point in time)

And for DCOD, he got caught using that name yes, he has a birth and death notice in that name yes, and after the 1934 trial in France, there is not one shred of evidence I have found this far that he was even alive until his death notice pops up! ( Thanks to you :) - that kept driving me on dang!

If he is really AW and has changed his name to such then there is a plausible reason in doing so and I am up that path at the moment!
LIKE WHY after the trial in 1934, he has no footprint? ( or not one that I have found so far!)

Too many 'coincidences' for me to throw DCOD to the curb just yet.

Like these - which can be swept away with the idea that RB just read stories about him for sure;
Wounded war hero
Placed advertisements to find woman
Fraud
Womaniser
Professional Dancer / gigolo
Flitting all over Europe - especially Amsterdam France & Germany
Accomplices who helped choose victims – (MOO with RB)
Passing himself off as a member of a rich noble family
Claimed disabled to work – living off the riches of the women
etc etc etc

So I started here with the idea that RB father is DCOD ( 'don juan' ) name changed to "Andre Wouters" after the trial at some point and under THIS name AW, meets Maria C and have the affair.


RB claims to visit his family all the time ( we know he is mostly fleecing ) – but he hasn't spoken to his brother for 30 yrs, DdeH doesn't actually say WHO they stay with when they were there, only that it is family friends etc / his cousins / brothers ( in arms perhaps :rolleyes:)

RB visits Amsterdam a lot - in fact the whole family spend time there

RB manages to get a German Passport – How does he do that?

RB christens his children in a Catholic Church in UK - WHY??? He has never shown any interest in being a Christian
( maybe they are both praying that the kids get a decent job when they grow upo_O)

And that then started a flood gate that I cant let go of just yet!
But it is all starting to make sense with RB and WHY he choses his aliases.

And you and centred and kittens and chicken have helped me no end!
Even if it all goes to sh** and the dead end, it has been veerrryyyyy interesting!







 
Oh I just love all of this @Eyespywithmylittleeye ! And absolutely it could be that old mate used DCOD "Don Juan' as a Mentor or as a guide after studying his life in later years. I agree completely and it really is the most logical and balanced outlook on it all. It would make it all the more viable to believe.

BUT for me personally, I don't believe that is what old mate did.
I am still going with it all as I am rather enjoying reading all the history of things.
And as this isn't a 'win a pony' at the end game for who was right or wrong but more to help eliminate any semblance of a theory /idea/hypothesis then that is what keeps me going. I take Sally's lead of exploring every avenue until it is a dead end. And that dead end might just be around the corner for me hahahaa!

I would be VERY surprised to find any birth certs on either AW or DCOD (if they are two different people) because of various factors - there is ZIP to go on in regard to AW - that very reasoning has kept me going with it - that is VERY odd. Even though there were wars, displacements of people, relatives of said people, you can usually find something, but there is nothing on him - not even on that EXTENSIVE Gen Tree that person did on over 80 000 people! .

AND...as you said "proper proof of birth certificate with Don Juan as the father"... OR for that matter proof of a birth certificate with AW and MC !.... of any male children is not to be found! ( at this point in time)

And for DCOD, he got caught using that name yes, he has a birth and death notice in that name yes, and after the 1934 trial in France, there is not one shred of evidence I have found this far that he was even alive until his death notice pops up! ( Thanks to you :) - that kept driving me on dang!

If he is really AW and has changed his name to such then there is a plausible reason in doing so and I am up that path at the moment!
LIKE WHY after the trial in 1934, he has no footprint? ( or not one that I have found so far!)

Too many 'coincidences' for me to throw DCOD to the curb just yet.

Like these - which can be swept away with the idea that RB just read stories about him for sure;
Wounded war hero
Placed advertisements to find woman
Fraud
Womaniser
Professional Dancer / gigolo
Flitting all over Europe - especially Amsterdam France & Germany
Accomplices who helped choose victims – (MOO with RB)
Passing himself off as a member of a rich noble family
Claimed disabled to work – living off the riches of the women
etc etc etc

So I started here with the idea that RB father is DCOD ( 'don juan' ) name changed to "Andre Wouters" after the trial at some point and under THIS name AW, meets Maria C and have the affair.


RB claims to visit his family all the time ( we know he is mostly fleecing ) – but he hasn't spoken to his brother for 30 yrs, DdeH doesn't actually say WHO they stay with when they were there, only that it is family friends etc / his cousins / brothers ( in arms perhaps :rolleyes:)

RB visits Amsterdam a lot - in fact the whole family spend time there

RB manages to get a German Passport – How does he do that?

RB christens his children in a Catholic Church in UK - WHY??? He has never shown any interest in being a Christian
( maybe they are both praying that the kids get a decent job when they grow upo_O)

And that then started a flood gate that I cant let go of just yet!
But it is all starting to make sense with RB and WHY he choses his aliases.

And you and centred and kittens and chicken have helped me no end!
Even if it all goes to sh** and the dead end, it has been veerrryyyyy interesting!






RB did get a passport issued in Bonn, Germany but I thought that was a replacement Australian ppt? Despite all the name changes, there is not yet any evidence of fake passports..although plenty of fake ids eg driving licences. The FD passenger cards must mean he was travelling in 1971 on an FD passport, either stolen or acquired with brother's birth certificate, but IMO there is another passport alias that was kept 'clean' , at least in the early Australian years that has not popped up yet.
Good luck with your searches.. I can't keep up with the DCOD theory, just too complex for my brain!
 
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