Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[mishy66]

A few days back someone posted up some links and cottage images around Tunbridge Wells I think it was.
I have tried searching for this post but I can't find it.
It was a link to photos of the area I think?
Saying Marion would love the area with these cottages .
Anyone have any idea how to find it.

 

[ruby925]

A few days back someone posted up some links and cottage images around Tunbridge Wells I think it was.
I have tried searching for this post but I can't find it.
It was a link to photos of the area I think?
Saying Marion would love the area with these cottages .
Anyone have any idea how to find it.

This was about Burwash where RB lived, was it something like this?
Detail 4053 – Screen Archive South East
@Lord Peter Flimsy also put up a youtube film about Burwash on 22Feb

 

[gymtonic]

A few days back someone posted up some links and cottage images around Tunbridge Wells I think it was.
I have tried searching for this post but I can't find it.
It was a link to photos of the area I think?
Saying Marion would love the area with these cottages .
Anyone have any idea how to find it.

It wasn’t me who posted the link, but you might be interested to look at Wadhurst Castle on the Internet, which is a well known wedding venue near Tunbridge Wells. One of my close family members got married there I attended the wedding!). I stayed at The Greyhound Inn (an old coaching inn on the road to Brighton built in the 1500s I think?) in Wadhurst, and the whole area near there is what Aussies would consider “quaint”.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

As the parents lived in the Eastern Suburbs at Vaucluse, the cafe was likely to be at Bondi, Double Bay or Paddington. I wondered if the Gosbell Street, Paddington address he gave was the cafe address that he'd been given by someone before his arrival.

I'm thinking maybe the coffee lounge was in Rose Bay. At one point in the inquest RB says when he was working in the cafe he was using the bank in Rose Bay. I'm also curious that he said the owner of Le Courrier used to come in the coffee lounge every day. Usually workers go to have a coffee nearby work, as a rule, but it is possible he called in on the way to work, or home, I guess. Would need to find out where the owners were living in the 1970's to figure that out.

 

[F.Knab]

WW arrives in Aus 24 May 1969

Travels from Perth to Sydney - interestingly, Mr Walker was born in Perth and has family ties there.

WW hangs round in Sydney doing who knows what.

WW registers the birth of Ilona's child on 18 Jan 1970 and Diane and her parents leave on their cruise on 19 Jan 1970.

WW and IK leave Aus on 15 Feb 1970 on a flight - plenty of time to beat the Walkers to Europe.

Who is looking after the Walker's business when they leave Aus for 1 year and 2 mths. Why are they travelling to Europe for business, what business?

Diane claims she met Blum as WW - but always called him Ric.

Blum obtains an Australian Visa #1795 granted on 25/11/70 for a 3 month stay.

Somehow, between Feb 1970 and Nov 1970 he applies for an Australian visa and books a passage on the SS Chusan.

Coincidentally, Blum is staying at the Hilton hotel waiting to board the SS Chusan back to Australia and just happens to see Diane and her parents at the hotel pool on the roof - which by the way is supposed to be in December - middle of winter in 1970.

Travels on SS Chusan as Fredy David and meets Diane and her parents and then stays with her family when he arrives in Australia 10 Mar 1971. So, Mr and Mrs Walker are just going to allow some dude they just met to live with them and their 19 year old daughter?

Riddle me this, how does WW commit "Fraud, issue of cheques without cover" on 17 Oct 1969 - when he is in Australia from 24 May 1969 to 15 Feb 1970?

 

[ChrysStevenson]

I feel like I've hit a bit of dead end with some of my searches. So I'm just going to think out loud for a lil second!


Some points that I can't get my head around:-


1. Marion telling people different versions of why she is going overseas and what she plans to do. Why? Why was she so secretive? Especially the picking up work or finding a school and maybe I'll move over permanently? You cant just move to the UK and start working as a teacher (without relevant visas etc etc), not even in 1997. Unless of course you were going down the direction of spousal visas etc / EU / European citizenship.


2. The Barclays Bank, if she knew she was going to change her name and her passport/ID, why did she not also change her bank accounts so she could access her money? And why wouldn't of Mr AKA picked up on this being the international man of fraud & forgery that he is. On one hand it makes me think the name change was such a last minute thing but such a silly one in retrospect to being able to access the cash, for either of them from the UK.


2. £20,000 pound is definietly not a small amount of money, but would it of been enough to last a year of travelling? I'm pretty sure M wasn't planning on budget/backpacking. £20,000 pound would work out to be around £109 a day over 6 months.

3. It's a big deal at any age going across the other side of the world as a "solo" female traveller. Especially for an unkown period of time. The fact she went to the airport alone via bus and took the route that she did just feels weird to me. And having to switch airports in Japan etc with all that luggage she had, if I remember correctly LL said she had 2 huge suitcases).

4. Arriving to the UK in 1997, surely she would of needed proof she had enough money to keep her afloat for her travel period (and a return ticket or ongoing ticket?), how did she prove this if her bank accounts were in one name and a passport in the other? I so wish we could see her UK Landing Card!


So many questions!!! Gahhhhhh! Anyone else have any thoughts on the above?

I’ve been thinking about these same issues, and while it’s not a hill I’d die defending, it makes me wonder if RB fed MB the same kind of story he gave to Monique - that he was working undercover for some kind of International agency - and then expanded that story to say their lives were in danger. It explains identity change and hurried relocation overseas. It also gives a ‘rational’ reason for them travelling separately.

It does sound bizarre, but there’s a Netflix series about a conman who did exactly this with multiple people. He told them he was with MI5 and that they were IRA targets and had to go on the run with him or they, and their families would be killed. Some were in hiding for 10 years for no reason.

 

[BabeBlues]

Do we know what MC looks like?? Could she look like Marion??

I can't seem to find any photos of her online which considering she was an actress in 1978 you'd expect it to be easy to find

 

[gymtonic]

I’ve been thinking about these same issues, and while it’s not a hill I’d die defending, it makes me wonder if RB fed MB the same kind of story he gave to Monique - that he was working undercover for some kind of International agency - and then expanded that story to say their lives were in danger. It explains identity change and hurried relocation overseas. It also gives a ‘rational’ reason for them travelling separately.

It does sound bizarre, but there’s a Netflix series about a conman who did exactly this with multiple people. He told them he was with MI5 and that they were IRA targets and had to go on the run with him or they, and their families would be killed. Some were in hiding for 10 years for no reason.

Thank you for this @ChrysStevenson...
TBH, I keep coming back to Occam's Razor principles (as @Peralta posted what seems like a looooong time ago now) as a reality check. However, given the things that were revealed at the inquest, through the podcast and in the NAA files, I am prepared to entertain and put forward some more fanciful and what might seem like "whacky" theories. I have 2 streams of thoughts running parallel: one is the "keep it simple, stupid", and the other is "what if?" I share a great deal of empathy with Sally having lived with that sort of dilemma over 25 years and being dragged one way and another and not being able to get anywhere. My desire for justice is strong, but IMO to get to the truth doesn't mean deciding that someone is guilty of murder and then looking for the evidence to fit that. Sleuthing is looking at the available evidence, making some interpretations from it, developing some explanations for what the evidence shows, and looking for the holes...and then refining it. I may have a gut feeling but if something crops up that challenges it then test it out some more. and if someone puts forward another explanation that is good Crowd-Sourcing Sleuthing.

 

[Nnbee]

I always think "keep it simple stupid too" the most likely scenario etc
but if someone told me when I first started listening to the podcast that Marion was caught up in an international fraudster love scam with a man who has 30+ alias etc I'd think they had lost their mind. I would have never believed what has happened so far so I just have no idea anymore.
I.am.so.confuse.my.brain.hurts.

 

[ChrysStevenson]

Thank you for this @ChrysStevenson...
TBH, I keep coming back to Occam's Razor principles (as @Peralta posted what seems like a looooong time ago now) as a reality check. However, given the things that were revealed at the inquest, through the podcast and in the NAA files, I am prepared to entertain and put forward some more fanciful and what might seem like "whacky" theories. I have 2 streams of thoughts running parallel: one is the "keep it simple, stupid", and the other is "what if?" I share a great deal of empathy with Sally having lived with that sort of dilemma over 25 years and being dragged one way and another and not being able to get anywhere. My desire for justice is strong, but IMO to get to the truth doesn't mean deciding that someone is guilty of murder and then looking for the evidence to fit that. Sleuthing is looking at the available evidence, making some interpretations from it, developing some explanations for what the evidence shows, and looking for the holes...and then refining it. I may have a gut feeling but if something crops up that challenges it then test it out some more. and if someone puts forward another explanation that is good Crowd-Sourcing Sleuthing.

I agree completely. As a researcher, my job isn’t to prove my clients are right, but to find the truth. You can’t research properly if your aim is to fit the facts to your hypothesis.

Occam’s Razor is a very good guide - although sometimes the truth can be stranger than fiction.

I’ve had the odd cranky client when I’ve said, “What you want to argue just can’t be supported by evidence. There’s no point pursuing this.” But most say, “OK! Thanks for steering me away from that rabbit hole.”

Ultimately, just because something sounds ‘right’ to you doesn’t mean it’s true.

 

[Zanzibar]

I'm thinking maybe the coffee lounge was in Rose Bay. At one point in the inquest RB says when he was working in the cafe he was using the bank in Rose Bay. I'm also curious that he said the owner of Le Courrier used to come in the coffee lounge every day. Usually workers go to have a coffee nearby work, as a rule, but it is possible he called in on the way to work, or home, I guess. Would need to find out where the owners were living in the 1970's to figure that out.

According to electoral rolls they were in Vaucluse at the time, I have the info at home and post later if needed.

 

[Zanzibar]

i

WW arrives in Aus 24 May 1969

Travels from Perth to Sydney - interestingly, Mr Walker was born in Perth and has family ties there.

WW hangs round in Sydney doing who knows what.

WW registers the birth of Ilona's child on 18 Jan 1970 and Diane and her parents leave on their cruise on 19 Jan 1970.

WW and IK leave Aus on 15 Feb 1970 on a flight - plenty of time to beat the Walkers to Europe.

Who is looking after the Walker's business when they leave Aus for 1 year and 2 mths. Why are they travelling to Europe for business, what business?

Diane claims she met Blum as WW - but always called him Ric.

Blum obtains an Australian Visa #1795 granted on 25/11/70 for a 3 month stay.

Somehow, between Feb 1970 and Nov 1970 he applies for an Australian visa and books a passage on the SS Chusan.

Coincidentally, Blum is staying at the Hilton hotel waiting to board the SS Chusan back to Australia and just happens to see Diane and her parents at the hotel pool on the roof - which by the way is supposed to be in December - middle of winter in 1970.

Travels on SS Chusan as Fredy David and meets Diane and her parents and then stays with her family when he arrives in Australia 10 Mar 1971. So, Mr and Mrs Walker are just going to allow some dude they just met to live with them and their 19 year old daughter?

Riddle me this, how does WW commit "Fraud, issue of cheques without cover" on 17 Oct 1969 - when he is in Australia from 24 May 1969 to 15 Feb 1970?

I’ve had similar thoughts about coincidences and plausibility of his story.

IK doesn’t fly out with him though, she days out in May 2 days after her daughter.

The temporal proximity of his and the Walkers departure is interesting. Your other questions Re their business and why go o’s for business has intrigued me but I haven’t had time to look into it. I’d love to know the name of their business.

I am of the view he met D in Australia before they went o’s, who knows maybe she threw herself at him

I was wondering with the dates on the NAA file if they were when they were committed or when they were discovered & he was charged?

 

[gymtonic]

WW arrives in Aus 24 May 1969

Travels from Perth to Sydney - interestingly, Mr Walker was born in Perth and has family ties there.

WW hangs round in Sydney doing who knows what.

WW registers the birth of Ilona's child on 18 Jan 1970 and Diane and her parents leave on their cruise on 19 Jan 1970.

WW and IK leave Aus on 15 Feb 1970 on a flight - plenty of time to beat the Walkers to Europe.

Who is looking after the Walker's business when they leave Aus for 1 year and 2 mths. Why are they travelling to Europe for business, what business?

Diane claims she met Blum as WW - but always called him Ric.

Blum obtains an Australian Visa #1795 granted on 25/11/70 for a 3 month stay.

Somehow, between Feb 1970 and Nov 1970 he applies for an Australian visa and books a passage on the SS Chusan.

Coincidentally, Blum is staying at the Hilton hotel waiting to board the SS Chusan back to Australia and just happens to see Diane and her parents at the hotel pool on the roof - which by the way is supposed to be in December - middle of winter in 1970.

Travels on SS Chusan as Fredy David and meets Diane and her parents and then stays with her family when he arrives in Australia 10 Mar 1971. So, Mr and Mrs Walker are just going to allow some dude they just met to live with them and their 19 year old daughter?

Riddle me this, how does WW commit "Fraud, issue of cheques without cover" on 17 Oct 1969 - when he is in Australia from 24 May 1969 to 15 Feb 1970?

My personal timeline has been developed from the NAA files and other verified sources, so I don't have some of the dates you mentioned.

However, I did have a few question marks in trying to reconcile the whole time period of 1969 though to 1971 and the only answer I could come up with to the question of "how does WW commit "Fraud, issue of cheques without cover" on 17 Oct 1969 - when he is in Australia from 24 May 1969 to 15 Feb 1970?" was that he was maybe charged in absentia and that's why he was arrested so quickly on his return? The charge sheet might have the date of the cheque on it? or that was when it was discovered even if he had left the country? A lot of it is like untangling a web isn't it?

 

[gymtonic]

It wasn’t me who posted the link, but you might be interested to look at Wadhurst Castle on the Internet, which is a well known wedding venue near Tunbridge Wells. One of my close family members got married there I attended the wedding!). I stayed at The Greyhound Inn (an old coaching inn on the road to Brighton built in the 1500s I think?) in Wadhurst, and the whole area near there is what Aussies would consider “quaint”.

I'm replying to my own post and tagging you @mishy66 because the interface is not allowing me to edit my original post reply (anyone else have that problem occasionally?).
Anyway I realised that I posted some incorrect information (although not earth shatteringly important). Wadhurst Castle Information - Wadhurst Castle and Wadhurst village are actually on the road from Tunbridge Wells to Hastings (not to Brighton), and about half-way between TW and Burwash.

 

[mishy66]

It wasn’t me who posted the link, but you might be interested to look at Wadhurst Castle on the Internet, which is a well known wedding venue near Tunbridge Wells. One of my close family members got married there I attended the wedding!). I stayed at The Greyhound Inn (an old coaching inn on the road to Brighton built in the 1500s I think?) in Wadhurst, and the whole area near there is what Aussies would consider “quaint”.

Thank you.
I am having internet issues eg power thanks to the storms! So I cant really get to responses to me. But thank you for helping.

But the post I was looking for had an image or link to a photo of thatched housing and words to the effect " ,,,Marion would love this "

Something like that. I wish I could remember

 

[Itsapuzzle]

According to electoral rolls they were in Vaucluse at the time, I have the info at home and post later if needed.

Was that the Le Courrier owners in Vaucluse? Sorry, I didn't word it very well, whoops, not the cafe owners, I meant the Le Courrier owners in the 1970s when RB was working in the cafe? Any electoral rolls for back then, Zanzibar? Thanks, just curious if it was near by cafe to make sense for them to pop in every day. Cheers, indebted.
"Albert Sourdin continued to edit the Courrier australien after the war, and became its owner. Thanks to him and his son Jean- Pierre Sourdin, who succeeded him in 1973 (when the periodicity changed from weekly to monthly), there was continuity in the management of this great newspaper for over half a century. Jean-Pierre Sourdin himself was a returned soldier, having served in the Free French Naval Forces in the Pacific during the Second World War.

On the eve of the twenty-first century, in 1999, Jean-Pierre Sourdin retired to Kiama on the South Coast of New South Wales, after selling his business interest in the Courrier to Bernard Elatri (who had been working for him for some time). Bernard Elatri took over the Courrier Australien as its new owner-manager-editor. Unfortunately he died prematurely on 8 August 2012, a victim of cancer. Jean-Pierre Sourdin followed him two months later, on 9 October 2012, at the age of eighty-seven. After hundred and twenty years of continuous publication the Courrier Australien ceased to appear at the end of 2011."

 

[F.Knab]

@gymtonic all dates noted are from the inquest (Casseldon), NAA file and incoming/outgoing passenger cards

I think you're probably right about the cheques

 

[vivienbee]

I am of the view he met D in Australia before they went o’s, who knows maybe she threw herself at him

Honestly, this part of your comment made me laugh so much! I don't have anything much to add beyond that because I can't decide what I think about when they met but thank you!

 

[centred]

Thank you for this @ChrysStevenson...
TBH, I keep coming back to Occam's Razor principles (as @Peralta posted what seems like a looooong time ago now) as a reality check. However, given the things that were revealed at the inquest, through the podcast and in the NAA files, I am prepared to entertain and put forward some more fanciful and what might seem like "whacky" theories. I have 2 streams of thoughts running parallel: one is the "keep it simple, stupid", and the other is "what if?" I share a great deal of empathy with Sally having lived with that sort of dilemma over 25 years and being dragged one way and another and not being able to get anywhere. My desire for justice is strong, but IMO to get to the truth doesn't mean deciding that someone is guilty of murder and then looking for the evidence to fit that. Sleuthing is looking at the available evidence, making some interpretations from it, developing some explanations for what the evidence shows, and looking for the holes...and then refining it. I may have a gut feeling but if something crops up that challenges it then test it out some more. and if someone puts forward another explanation that is good Crowd-Sourcing Sleuthing.

" My desire for justice is strong, but IMO to get to the truth doesn't mean deciding that someone is guilty of murder and then looking for the evidence to fit that. Sleuthing is looking at the available evidence, making some interpretations from it, developing some explanations for what the evidence shows, and looking for the holes...and then refining it. I may have a gut feeling but if something crops up that challenges it then test it out some more. and if someone puts forward another explanation that is good Crowd-Sourcing Sleuthing.'

I so agree with this part of your comment , this is my take on sleuthing successfully, as i am finding things going around in what sometimes feels like contrary circles and confusion when time like you suggest could be better spent . IMO

There is no proof of any death yet let alone any possibility of any type of conviction so it remains a cross purpose to finding Marion , although i understand the interest and the reasoning for solving a pattern of behavior i personally feel a certain frustration at the cross purpose IMO

although i am certain once the next tranche begins and ends the information will be more complete to fill in any more gaps .

 

[mishy66]

This was about Burwash where RB lived, was it something like this?
Detail 4053 – Screen Archive South East
@Lord Peter Flimsy also put up a youtube film about Burwash on 22Feb

Thank you!
It wasnt that one although it is a good one.
I will try a couple of previous threads and see if its there.
I wish I could remember!