Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[gymtonic]

There’s been a bit of chatter this morning on the thread about confusion.

MOO I think one of the biggest sources of confusion for me stems from the use of different date order systems in common use around the globe and as we come from all over it, the use of numbers only for dates makes me have to think twice before I settle on what the date is.

By this I mean that whether we write dates as YYYY/MM/DD or DD/MM/YYYY (in numbers only, and many other combinations) often varies depending on where we are from or where the sources are from. Sometimes it is easy to work out, but other times you can end up with an entirely different date. I tend to use the month name rather than number in international work to avoid that issue.

 

[Roseberry]

I’ve been thinking about these same issues, and while it’s not a hill I’d die defending, it makes me wonder if RB fed MB the same kind of story he gave to Monique - that he was working undercover for some kind of International agency - and then expanded that story to say their lives were in danger. It explains identity change and hurried relocation overseas. It also gives a ‘rational’ reason for them travelling separately.
It does sound bizarre, but there’s a Netflix series about a conman who did exactly this with multiple people. He told them he was with MI5 and that they were IRA targets and had to go on the run with him or they, and their families would be killed. Some were in hiding for 10 years for no reason.

Or the Netflix Tinder Swindler documentary series - expose of a Ponzi-type romance scam carried out across many countries. This guy appropriated the ID of a tycoon's son and snared young, vulnerable women via dating app. They are wined and dined, travel in private jets and luxury cars - all financed from the previous woman he has met. While he's draining one he's setting up another. Once he has reeled them in he calls from overseas with a consistent tale involving an emergency requiring urgent funds or he will be killed by his captors/the people following him - they must tell no-one or and wire funds immediately. They are so in his thrall and he is so convincing they comply - cleaning out their own funds and even taking out loans to 'rescue' him. He conned women out of millions.

He covered his tracks so well and carried out his scams across so many international borders it was very hard to catch him. The victims were interviewed - and judging by the effect it's had on them its easy to imagine a victim would prefer to fade into obscurity and start a new life after realising you'd been conned.

No need to re-invent the wheel -new versions of the same old scams are constantly reappearing after being refined and adapted

 

[Zanzibar]

Was that the Le Courrier owners in Vaucluse? Sorry, I didn't word it very well, whoops, not the cafe owners, I meant the Le Courrier owners in the 1970s when RB was working in the cafe? Any electoral rolls for back then, Zanzibar? Thanks, just curious if it was near by cafe to make sense for them to pop in every day. Cheers, indebted.
"Albert Sourdin continued to edit the Courrier australien after the war, and became its owner. Thanks to him and his son Jean- Pierre Sourdin, who succeeded him in 1973 (when the periodicity changed from weekly to monthly), there was continuity in the management of this great newspaper for over half a century. Jean-Pierre Sourdin himself was a returned soldier, having served in the Free French Naval Forces in the Pacific during the Second World War.

On the eve of the twenty-first century, in 1999, Jean-Pierre Sourdin retired to Kiama on the South Coast of New South Wales, after selling his business interest in the Courrier to Bernard Elatri (who had been working for him for some time). Bernard Elatri took over the Courrier Australien as its new owner-manager-editor. Unfortunately he died prematurely on 8 August 2012, a victim of cancer. Jean-Pierre Sourdin followed him two months later, on 9 October 2012, at the age of eighty-seven. After hundred and twenty years of continuous publication the Courrier Australien ceased to appear at the end of 2011."

Ah! There are definitely electoral rolls for the period. I’ll check when I get home and post

 

[Zanzibar]

Selling her house counts as income. Perhaps if it's invested after the sale, it doesn't count, but once it's withdrawn, it's income. I just wondered if her delinquent taxes were ever used as proof of her death rather than merely disappearance.

I'm not sure if this has been answered, but selling any form of property doesn't count as income as you are merely turning a long term assett into a cash asset. If however there was a profit on the sale that may be considered income, but only if the property has been depreciated or improved as a business expense.

 

[Zanzibar]

@Itsapuzzle
I've had a look at the Sourdin's and have listed below what I could find.

Mr Albert Henri Julien Sourdin (born in France) (age 36)
Mrs Nancy Sourdin (English born, French by marriage) (age 38)
Mstr Jean-Pierre Carlos Albert Sourdin (age 11)
Miss Patsy Melina Mae Sourdin (age 7)
Mstr Alec Jacques Michael Sourdin (age 2 months)
Another child Walter was born in Aus but I don't know when.

All travelled on the SS Orontes London to Sydney arriving 5 Nov 1936 from an address c/o P Rogers, 30 Gt Percy Street, WCI (I'm afraid that's how it's listed on the passenger list) and going to 55 Myall Street Concord West Sydney.

Albert enlisted for service between 1939-1948 in Waverly (service #N324009)
He had multiple arrivals and departures between 1936-1966 but I could not see the detail of his service or immigration file as neither are online as yet. Interestingly he also lodged an application (I presume for a patent) for a draught board (in 1937) and some form of stationery thingamajig (in 1940).

Jean-Pierre was born 20 May 1925 In and died 9 Oct 2012 whilst living in Kiama, he had 6 children. There was a sole trader listed as "Jean-Pierre Sourdin" around the Kiama area which was cancelled in 2015. I found a photo of him in his Kent Street offices in 1982 (Mr. Jean Pierre Sourdin, Editor of the French newspaper, Le Courrier,... News Photo - Getty Images). Here is an interesting article on him joining "Free France" -in 1943 as a Sailor in their Navy in North Africa - quite an interesting read! (Jean Pierre Albert Sourdin - Les Français Libres). There is something there about Noumea for anyone looking for a deeper link with Mr AKA.

I can not find any reference to any Sourdin's on any electoral roll other than Alec in 1968 (Bexley) and 1980 (Balmain). There was some other random details on Patsy Melina but you can search those on the NAA. They may have chosen to be silent voters.

Hope that is of interest. I have all the links and details if anyone wants them.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

@Itsapuzzle
I've had a look at the Sourdin's and have listed below what I could find.

Mr Albert Henri Julien Sourdin (born in France) (age 36)
Mrs Nancy Sourdin (English born, French by marriage) (age 38)
Mstr Jean-Pierre Carlos Albert Sourdin (age 11)
Miss Patsy Melina Mae Sourdin (age 7)
Mstr Alec Jacques Michael Sourdin (age 2 months)
Another child Walter was born in Aus but I don't know when.

All travelled on the SS Orontes London to Sydney arriving 5 Nov 1936 from an address c/o P Rogers, 30 Gt Percy Street, WCI (I'm afraid that's how it's listed on the passenger list) and going to 55 Myall Street Concord West Sydney.

Albert enlisted for service between 1939-1948 in Waverly (service #N324009)
He had multiple arrivals and departures between 1936-1966 but I could not see the detail of his service or immigration file as neither are online as yet. Interestingly he also lodged an application (I presume for a patent) for a draught board (in 1937) and some form of stationery thingamajig (in 1940).

Jean-Pierre was born 20 May 1925 In and died 9 Oct 2012 whilst living in Kiama, he had 6 children. There was a sole trader listed as "Jean-Pierre Sourdin" around the Kiama area which was cancelled in 2015. I found a photo of him in his Kent Street offices in 1982 (Mr. Jean Pierre Sourdin, Editor of the French newspaper, Le Courrier,... News Photo - Getty Images). Here is an interesting article on him joining "Free France" -in 1943 as a Sailor in their Navy in North Africa - quite an interesting read! (Jean Pierre Albert Sourdin - Les Français Libres). There is something there about Noumea for anyone looking for a deeper link with Mr AKA.

I can not find any reference to any Sourdin's on any electoral roll other than Alec in 1968 (Bexley) and 1980 (Balmain). There was some other random details on Patsy Melina but you can search those on the NAA. They may have chosen to be silent voters.

Hope that is of interest. I have all the links and details if anyone wants them.

Thanks Zanzibar, you're an absolute gem!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I feel like I've hit a bit of dead end with some of my searches. So I'm just going to think out loud for a lil second!


Some points that I can't get my head around:-


1. Marion telling people different versions of why she is going overseas and what she plans to do. Why? Why was she so secretive? Especially the picking up work or finding a school and maybe I'll move over permanently? You cant just move to the UK and start working as a teacher (without relevant visas etc etc), not even in 1997. Unless of course you were going down the direction of spousal visas etc / EU / European citizenship.


2. The Barclays Bank, if she knew she was going to change her name and her passport/ID, why did she not also change her bank accounts so she could access her money? And why wouldn't of Mr AKA picked up on this being the international man of fraud & forgery that he is. On one hand it makes me think the name change was such a last minute thing but such a silly one in retrospect to being able to access the cash, for either of them from the UK.


2. £20,000 pound is definietly not a small amount of money, but would it of been enough to last a year of travelling? I'm pretty sure M wasn't planning on budget/backpacking. £20,000 pound would work out to be around £109 a day over 6 months.

3. It's a big deal at any age going across the other side of the world as a "solo" female traveller. Especially for an unkown period of time. The fact she went to the airport alone via bus and took the route that she did just feels weird to me. And having to switch airports in Japan etc with all that luggage she had, if I remember correctly LL said she had 2 huge suitcases).

4. Arriving to the UK in 1997, surely she would of needed proof she had enough money to keep her afloat for her travel period (and a return ticket or ongoing ticket?), how did she prove this if her bank accounts were in one name and a passport in the other? I so wish we could see her UK Landing Card!


So many questions!!! Gahhhhhh! Anyone else have any thoughts on the above?

Going to Japan is just strange in general.. unless you are planning to stay a week or so and have a look around. Solo woman with way too much luggage IMO wouldn’t choose that route to fly to UK/Europe. So that has always been weird.

not getting driven to airport and insisting on bus is even stranger.

the secret name change..

the various stories of her plans of going to England..

To me personally the secretive way she was behaving.. seeing Sally in maccas and freaking out driving away.. who does that?

There was clearly something going on.. something that I believe involved RB.. they had a plan.. their ultimate end goals of plan I believe were extremely different.

she wanted adventure and love.

he wanted her bank account.

I’m also stuck with searches..not sure what to search atm that hasn’t already been searched by all of the amazing people on here’s.

Gosbell street interested me a few days back.. I did find a woman who came with her family born in Germany however was Polish..who had that address for her naturalisation record.. I wondered if that was ‘the friend’ ik had.

Her name is Karin Ina Ceglarski she arrived a lot earlier than IK or Rb though in 1950 on the Nelly ship. She was 13 years old at the time. A relative perhaps?? Naturalisation in 1957

Manfred Joachim Lehinger was there 1968 also naturalisation record in trove

T Sheppard - ‘Agents please note my flatettes - 6 Gosbell street Paddington have been sold and are withdrawn from sale - 1952

ad - B & B shared room suit Gent, - 1947

when I look at the property now it’s a terrace house but I’d say back in the day it was a boarding house.

 

[Carovb5]

I was looking at the coin-trail again, but searching for links with European countries.

There’s an auction of some of “the coppenolle collection” in 1997 in Italy.

I’m gonna search into it a little further (who was the owner at that point? Mr Aka or already someone else), but as some of you are, for the moment, searching for clues of his travels in 1997, i’m already posting it here, as maybe it could be a connection someone is looking for/a hole in their timeline perhaps.

(The printscreen is of the part of the link i’m referring to)

Full text of "Sale 126"

 

[Liselle]

I was looking at the coin-trail again, but searching for links with European countries.

There’s an auction of some of “the coppenolle collection” in 1997 in Italy.

I’m gonna search into it a little further (who was the owner at that point? Mr Aka or already someone else), but as some of you are, for the moment, searching for clues of his travels in 1997, i’m already posting it here, as maybe it could be a connection someone is looking for/a hole in their timeline perhaps.

(The printscreen is of the part of the link i’m referring to)

Full text of "Sale 126"

Noble Numismatics is an Australian Company, so I guess we could surmise (without doubt) that this item once belonged to RB!!

 

[KittensAugustus]

I've been having a poke around to see if I can find any more victims. This disappearance is very strange... 2626DFBEL - Georgette Van Acker

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I was looking at the coin-trail again, but searching for links with European countries.

There’s an auction of some of “the coppenolle collection” in 1997 in Italy.

I’m gonna search into it a little further (who was the owner at that point? Mr Aka or already someone else), but as some of you are, for the moment, searching for clues of his travels in 1997, i’m already posting it here, as maybe it could be a connection someone is looking for/a hole in their timeline perhaps.

(The printscreen is of the part of the link i’m referring to)

Full text of "Sale 126"

These are some of the coins Wayback machine has picked up
https://www.noble.com.au/site/docs/cats/sale_95/A17.pdf


The Italian reference all I can find atm is the book from that auction.. but not what’s inside the book lol.

Nummorum Auctiones #7 Oct 1997 Italio Vecchi Ltd Auction Catalog World Coinage | eBay

Italo Vecchi Limited

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Noble Numismatics is an Australian Company, so I guess we could surmise (without doubt) that this item once belonged to RB!!

Correct I think this is just wayback machine picking up the Coppenolle coins sold at Nobles

 

[Newby171]

with ref to Ilona's departure in 1970, I have been searching for a possible travel companion. Failed, but did find a Michael John Reid who is a potential candidate for Ilona's partner. DOB 2Dec1947, New Zealander who had been living in Sydney.
Two departure cards in 1970, 20May1970 leaves permanently, then 13Dec1970 leaves Sydney for a two month holiday.

New comer here, but been following this thread for a long time. I have noticed the birthdate for MJR on these cards is the same as FR 02/12/1947

 

[Liselle]

I've been having a poke around to see if I can find any more victims. This disappearance is very strange... 2626DFBEL - Georgette Van Acker

Interesting also is (after missing for 22 years), information on this missing lady was only updated last year, coinciding with this investigation!

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I believe I heard in the inquest that the statement MC gave to the police stated that Mr aka had mentioned to her that he was in the Secret Service (please correct me if I’m wrong). This is a common ploy by con-artists. Could he have used this to frighten Marion?

 

[ruby925]

Interesting also is (after missing for 22 years), information on this missing lady was only updated last year, coinciding with this investigation!

And interesting that she was last seen in Lille! (wonder if AC was probing RB cos of that..)

 

[brjakj]

Correct I think this is just wayback machine picking up the Coppenolle coins sold at Nobles

I would love some history on this coppenolle collection - has anyone contacted nobles to see if they can get one?

 

[Bibno]

There’s been a bit of chatter this morning on the thread about confusion.

MOO I think one of the biggest sources of confusion for me stems from the use of different date order systems in common use around the globe and as we come from all over it, the use of numbers only for dates makes me have to think twice before I settle on what the date is.

By this I mean that whether we write dates as YYYY/MM/DD or DD/MM/YYYY (in numbers only, and many other combinations) often varies depending on where we are from or where the sources are from. Sometimes it is easy to work out, but other times you can end up with an entirely different date. I tend to use the month name rather than number in international work to avoid that issue.

Agreed, I have had similar confusion when working with others overseas who use a different system from the one I use, and now in that situation I always use DD MMM YYYY eg 01 MAR 2022 which is easily understandable.

 

[Pineconemind]

New comer here, but been following this thread for a long time. I have noticed the birthdate for MJR on these cards is the same as FR 02/12/1947

Good spotting! I did a little search the other day for an 'MJ REID' and 'butcher' as per his arrivals cards and this came up.

Possibly completely unrelated, the photograph isn't very clear but interesting reading re: the container shipment.

17 Apr 1970 - First Container Transportation Bourke Direct to London in Six Weeks - Trove (nla.gov.au)

 

[Pineconemind]

Going to Japan is just strange in general.. unless you are planning to stay a week or so and have a look around. Solo woman with way too much luggage IMO wouldn’t choose that route to fly to UK/Europe. So that has always been weird.

not getting driven to airport and insisting on bus is even stranger.

the secret name change..

the various stories of her plans of going to England..

To me personally the secretive way she was behaving.. seeing Sally in maccas and freaking out driving away.. who does that?

There was clearly something going on.. something that I believe involved RB.. they had a plan.. their ultimate end goals of plan I believe were extremely different.

she wanted adventure and love.

he wanted her bank account.

I’m also stuck with searches..not sure what to search atm that hasn’t already been searched by all of the amazing people on here’s.

Gosbell street interested me a few days back.. I did find a woman who came with her family born in Germany however was Polish..who had that address for her naturalisation record.. I wondered if that was ‘the friend’ ik had.

Her name is Karin Ina Ceglarski she arrived a lot earlier than IK or Rb though in 1950 on the Nelly ship. She was 13 years old at the time. A relative perhaps?? Naturalisation in 1957

Manfred Joachim Lehinger was there 1968 also naturalisation record in trove

T Sheppard - ‘Agents please note my flatettes - 6 Gosbell street Paddington have been sold and are withdrawn from sale - 1952

ad - B & B shared room suit Gent, - 1947

when I look at the property now it’s a terrace house but I’d say back in the day it was a boarding house.

Mmmm, so many questions! Interesting with the Gosbell address. I reckon you are right about the boarding house.

Im running out the door now, but posting so I can come back to this post!