Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[BonnieB]

I am sure this has already been looked at but you can access details of art sales (for a fee). The painting of Marion's is on here. Jamie Boyd. 1949-. Australia - List All Works

From memory I think MB owned a numbered lithograph of Jamie Boyd's. As the edition was 100 and the number of MB's is unknown it would be very difficult to trace. I think SL was trying to track down the gallery from which it was purchased to hopefully get the ?/100

 

[gymtonic]

Also FYI
From this May 1997 airline industry source on Airline Alliances: https://www.pc.gov.au/research/supporting/airline-alliances/aircraft.pdf

However, there are a number of examples of how alliances have improved service quality. For example, the alliance between Ansett International and Korean Air enabled Ansett International to double its weekly flights between Australia and Korea. Ansett argued that code share services were necessary to be ‘frequency competitive’ in the Australia–Korea market. It claimed that increased frequency would be beneficial to consumers, particularly time- sensitive business travellers, but also for leisure travellers who would have access to more flexible holiday packages (Ansett 1996).

Airlines also pursue alliances in order to offer a greater number of direct services. Many passengers prefer the convenience of avoiding stop-overs and reduced travel times of direct services. A number of new direct services have been introduced as a result of increased traffic provided by code sharing alliances, including Alitalia’s service between Houston and Rome, Delta Airline’s Cincinnati–Zurich service and Northwest Airline’s Memphis service to Europe (Hufbauer and Findlay 1996). Australian airlines have also entered into alliances that have increased the number of direct flights. For example, the alliance between Qantas and Japan Airlines allowed both carriers to introduce daily direct services between Tokyo and Brisbane, and maintain daily non-stop services between Tokyo and Cairns (Maynard 1996). However, the benefits of these increased direct flights need to be balanced with reduced competition, as a result of Japan Airlines ceasing operations on the Tokyo– Cairns route.

 

[Roseberry]

From memory I think MB owned a numbered lithograph of Jamie Boyd's. As the edition was 100 and the number of MB's is unknown it would be very difficult to trace. I think SL was trying to track down the gallery from which it was purchased to hopefully get the ?/100

Sadly, I think that if you're dealing with someone so well-versed in the issues surrounding provenance and traceability due to life-long dealings in a related industry, these items will likely have been disposed of privately, anonymously and because of their size, locally, and at well-below their value. I suspect the best bet would be the local version of e-bay (gumtree?) or whatever it's platform was in the 1-2 years around that time. More likely a local boot-sale or fair. They could turn up in re-sale at any time post that period, but with associated issues in ascertaining prior ownership. Doesn't mean it's not worth trying though. Just IMO.

 

[DK007]

I’m catching up after a couple of weeks away… I’ve listened to the latest podcast and would appreciate if anyone could explain why RB kept flying with Japan airlines ? Was it Bcoz of the cheap flights he received from someone who worked for Japan airlines in Amsterdam airport as he replied to LCA question about this and was so vague in his answer or did he finally reveal the real reason he flew with Japan airlines for almost 12 plus years? Thanks in advance

 

[Bibno]

This is a lovely example of an Oast House.
From the Historic England Website:
MOTTYNSDEN OAST, SPRING LANE Grade II Listed Building. Listed 13-May-1987
MOTTYNSDEN OAST, Burwash - 1232982 | Historic England

 

[Roseberry]

How many days ahead was his departure though ? I was thinking at least a few days , i have forgotten dates at the moment , If he intending the flights to coincide for arrival together he is leaving a big gap to hang around waiting for her ? Why bother wasting all that time ?

If we really need him to be in UK at some stage: He said on his passenger card he intended to spend the next 30 days in Belgium. There's usually a grain of truth so could have waited it out by going directly somewhere familiar and handy such as, I don't know, maybe a place like Lille, to tend to his legumes or whatever repeatedly draws him back there, until he could catch a ferry to LHR and meet her on the day of her arrival, help her store her luggage and keep the key for safekeeping. Maybe help her organise a hire-car, stay with her for a very brief time then make his excuses and disappear OS again after removing what he wanted from the luggage on his way out when she's not there.

 

[centred]

If we really need him to be in UK at some stage: He said on his passenger card he intended to spend the next 30 days in Belgium. There's usually a grain of truth so could have waited it out by going directly somewhere familiar and handy such as, I don't know, maybe a place like Lille, to tend to his legumes or whatever repeatedly draws him back there, until he could catch a ferry to LHR and meet her on the day of her arrival, help her store her luggage and keep the key for safekeeping. Maybe help her organise a hire-car, stay with her for a very brief time then make his excuses and disappear OS again after removing what he wanted from the luggage on his way out when she's not there.

All good but when does Marion discover her things missing ? surely not 4 or 5 weeks later ? Because above synopsis suggests he doesn't take long to do this after hanging around just for a few days with her .....Does she not even notice for a few weeks ousting around the English country side > Maybe you are saying the bulk of her luggage she kept in storage which also makes sense if she is intending to move to Belgium as the "missus " after she goes on the Orient Express first .

Its a bit sad when you think how excited she must have been , Marion as Sally said "was in love with love "

 

[centred]

All good but when does Marion discover her things missing ? surely not 4 or 5 weeks later ? Because above synopsis suggests he doesn't take long to do this after hanging around just for a few days with her .....Does she not even notice for a few weeks ousting around the English country side > Maybe you are saying the bulk of her luggage she kept in storage which also makes sense if she is intending to move to Belgium as the "missus " after she goes on the Orient Express first .

Its a bit sad when you think how excited she must have been , Marion as Sally said "was in love with love "

Tending to his legumes made me laugh BTW

Sorry my posting is glitching or it might be me , its late

 

[poppypopcorn]

This gives a really good description of the whole property https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/37571761#/?channel=RES_BUY

And this seems to be written by a descendant of the owners The Manser family and Mottynsden Manor, Burwash

This is not the sort of property which two people on disability pensions can typically afford to rent. In the 90s, that sort of large detached property in the London commuter zone could EASILY cost £2000 per month. ($3500 AUS or $2600 US).

This is an affluent area.

Also agree that the "mad cow disease" thing is a lot of nonsense - although the first case was reported in 1986, it was not until 1990 that it really was a big news story with the government minister feeding his daughter a burger for the TV cameras to prove it was all safe. People in the 80s were not travelling to the continent for their shopping to avoid buying British beef. They might have been travelling to Calais for cheap booze and cigarettes though, the "booze cruise" was fairly common, due to high rates of tax on tobacco and alcohol in the UK comapred with France. People would take the 90 minute ferry to Calais, drive to one of the large out of town warehouses and stock up on loads of cheap French wine, beer and tobacco. Supposed to be for personal consumption only, but lots of people were doing it to sell (illegally) in the UK.

 

[Roseberry]

All good but when does Marion discover her things missing ? surely not 4 or 5 weeks later ? Because above synopsis suggests he doesn't take long to do this after hanging around just for a few days with her .....Does she not even notice for a few weeks ousting around the English country side > Maybe you are saying the bulk of her luggage she kept in storage which also makes sense if she is intending to move to Belgium as the "missus " after she goes on the Orient Express first .

Its a bit sad when you think how excited she must have been , Marion as Sally said "was in love with love "

Unless she's given him her MB documents before she's left Australia, he has to sort out some way to meet up with her and take them, either covertly or overtly depending on his plan, so that he can return while she's travelling UK and drain the account. She won't need to think about the luggage and whether or not it may be missing anything until she comes to leave UK and move to her new home in Belgium.

It needs refinement, but following what happened to JO I reckon that's the basic gist of it and I'm much more inclined now to think she did return due to a problem that subsequently cropped up with taking out the cash and has probably never left Australia since.

As someone rather poignantly (and uncharacteristically) noted recently: "In any case, the contact was established"...

And yes, it is very sad especially if you think she might have been excited right up until after the time she last used that Medicare card for a bit of last-minute 'housekeeping'. Just the sort of thing you do before heading back off overseas for an extended period, especially if you were checking up on a recent development in something as important as your eye. Hard to think it could have been anyone else who used it- too risky to use it as a cover-up, too specific an appointment for an opportunist. But nice to think the would also have been excited to share it with everyone eventually - as her daughter, following her gut instinct, knew she would, if she could.

Between then and Owen's birthday - was it 15 and 17 October?

Dates not exact, off the top of my head and IMO.

 

[Meligator]

Marion mentions in a letter being in the East with way too much luggage. This letter is sent (from memory) a good week after leaving AU. So, seems possible she exited with luggage in SKorea and got onto a flight to Narita (no idea why she flew to SK first). Alternatively, RB could have met her in SK ( having stole some stationary from his hotel).

I suspect they traveled from there together & the luggage was stored in his name (oh honey let me take care of they for you).

I suspect he traveled with her by car through all the places mentioned in her postcards. Sounds like he wasn’t much of an adventurer or tour guide (JO), so Marion would have had plenty of time to write postcards along their journey.

At some point he leaves her someplace while he goes for “business.” I’d guess he takes the car (like with JO). Giving him time to steal her luggage, sell some of her jewelry etc., pretend he got pulverized ).

I actually don’t think he intended to leave JO or MB overseas. That could trigger some international collaboration of authorities, should one of the victims complain. He brings them back with the presence of we will return again overseas to start our new life. Finishes his scam and disappears.

Regarding the Barkley’s, listening to the podcast I don’t think she had an actual account there so much as was using it as an address (agent bank I believe they said). It’s not totally clear, but I don’t get the impression that money was only accessible from UK. The impression I took from some of the questioning at the inquest was wether Marion herself opened those colonial accounts and Barkley address OR (b/c of errors in her DOB, if someone else opened those perhaps on her behalf). Episode 13 of the podcast mentions her “possibly” having 2 prior Colonial accounts (did RB encourage her to close those). Could RB have helped her open new accounts (perhaps so he had knowledge of account numbers, where her money was stored)?

The fact that the money was left in her account makes me more suspicious about what ultimately happened to her. I can’t see him leaving money unstolen unless Marion had threatened to contact authorities (which seems she didn’t do) or Marion was killed (and he knew he needed to separate himself from her).

All just theory of course.

 

[Bibno]

I have been looking at old maps. On the 1909 Ordnance Survey, the name is Mottingsden, rather than then MOTTYNSDEN.

View map: Sussex XXIX.12 (Burwash) - Ordnance Survey 25 inch England and Wales, 1841-1952

This shows the location of the Manor House and the Farm and Oast

I used the Post Office search to find the addresses related to this place and they gave me the following list. I am not 100% sure that they are all distinct places, but all these will have been used as an address fairly recently.

The Post Office uses Bing maps to show locations of addresses on their website, and I used Bing initially to find the position of these addresses, but they had the Manor House in the wrong place.

MOTTYNSDEN Lodge:
Google Maps Search for: 51.00155, 0.37124
MOTTYNSDEN Coach House:
Google Maps Search for: 51.0013, 0.371
MOTTYNSDEN Farm:
Google Maps Search for: 51.00252, 0.37344
MOTTYNSDEN Oast (The Oast House is part of the Farm Building but the building is probably split into two now).
MOTTYNSDEN House:
Google Maps Search for: 51.00372, 0.37263
MOTTYNSDEN Manor:
Google Maps Search for:51.00323, 0.37395

It looks like the Lodge wasn't a Gate House type lodge.

 

[Roseberry]

This is not the sort of property which two people on disability pensions can typically afford to rent. In the 90s, that sort of large detached property in the London commuter zone could EASILY cost £2000 per month. ($3500 AUS or $2600 US).

This is an affluent area.

Also agree that the "mad cow disease" thing is a lot of nonsense - although the first case was reported in 1986, it was not until 1990 that it really was a big news story with the government minister feeding his daughter a burger for the TV cameras to prove it was all safe. People in the 80s were not travelling to the continent for their shopping to avoid buying British beef. They might have been travelling to Calais for cheap booze and cigarettes though, the "booze cruise" was fairly common, due to high rates of tax on tobacco and alcohol in the UK comapred with France. People would take the 90 minute ferry to Calais, drive to one of the large out of town warehouses and stock up on loads of cheap French wine, beer and tobacco. Supposed to be for personal consumption only, but lots of people were doing it to sell (illegally) in the UK.

I think back up a bit someone found that this was the M Manor, and it was the M Lodge on the baptismal record. (There's also an M Farm, Oast and Cottage). The Lodge also looks rather substantial and as if has been in the same Dutch-surnamed family for decades, but it does look as if he might have rented or stayed in what was described on record as a Flat attached to the Lodge or grounds of the Lodge. So less To-the manor-born and more bunking-down-in-the-broom-closet, by the sounds. Could be wrong though. But it definitely says Mottynsden Lodge on the baptismal certificate.

 

[Roseberry]

duplicate deleted

 

[Bibno]

There is a brochure about the Manor House from the Estate Agent, Hamptons here:

MOTTYNSDEN MANOR BURWASH EAST SUSSEX - PDF Free Download

This relates to the manor house that can be seen at Google Maps
51.00323, 0.37395

From reading the brochure it looks like the other buildings eg Farm and Oasts, Lodge and Coach house etc are separate properties and no longer part of the manor.

 

[ruby925]

I have been looking at old maps. On the 1909 Ordnance Survey, the name is Mottingsden, rather than then MOTTYNSDEN.

View map: Sussex XXIX.12 (Burwash) - Ordnance Survey 25 inch England and Wales, 1841-1952

This shows the location of the Manor House and the Farm and Oast

I used the Post Office search to find the addresses related to this place and they gave me the following list. I am not 100% sure that they are all distinct places, but all these will have been used as an address fairly recently.

The Post Office uses Bing maps to show locations of addresses on their website, and I used Bing initially to find the position of these addresses, but they had the Manor House in the wrong place.

MOTTYNSDEN Lodge:
Google Maps Search for: 51.00155, 0.37124
MOTTYNSDEN Coach House:
Google Maps Search for: 51.0013, 0.371
MOTTYNSDEN Farm:
Google Maps Search for: 51.00252, 0.37344
MOTTYNSDEN Oast (The Oast House is part of the Farm Building but the building is probably split into two now).
MOTTYNSDEN House:
Google Maps Search for: 51.00372, 0.37263
MOTTYNSDEN Manor:
Google Maps Search for:51.00323, 0.37395

It looks like the Lodge wasn't a Gate House type lodge.

I think you are right. I found the council tax details for all of these, all under the same postcode, only the Coach House was about £2500 pa, the rest were all about £3500 with the manor over £4000.

 

[Bibno]

I think you are right. I found the council tax details for all of these, all under the same postcode, only the Coach House was about £2500 pa, the rest were all about £3500 with the manor over £4000.

What year did you find the council tax details for? I suppose it the current year?

Does this mean The Lodge is about £3,000 pa? I’ve seen it referred to as two flats. Did the council tax list show this? If they were separate properties then they would have separate council tax charges.

I was wondering about finding out what the individual properties were in 1983 or whenever they were there. I think the electoral roll *might* be helpful here. It’s very likely that these properties will have probably undergone a great deal of refurbishment/extension since 1980s .

it would be interesting to know who else was living in the other properties at the time they were there.

 

[Aldona]

Also, by the baptism record, they would have been there around 1984. The sale was 1995 so probably too late

What year did you find the council tax details for? I suppose it the current year?

Does this mean The Lodge is about £3,000 pa? I’ve seen it referred to as two flats. Did the council tax list show this? If they were separate properties then they would have separate council tax charges.

I was wondering about finding out what the individual properties were in 1983 or whenever they were there. I think the electoral roll *might* be helpful here. It’s very likely that these properties will have probably undergone a great deal of refurbishment/extension since 1980s .

it would be interesting to know who else was living in the other properties at the time they were there.

I am going to try and search the Burwash electoral rolls when I can next get into the East Sussex records office.

In the meantime I have been revisiting Marion’s postcards. On one of them (the cat shop one, attached, taken from an earlier WS thread) she says “because of all of my luggage I have decided to hire a little car and have been rather brave motoring carefully around this gorgeous place”. She also says “I’m shortly off to Amsterdam and the Orient Express on 15 July”.

Sorry if this has already been discussed as I am relatively new to WS but do we know why Marion was going to Amsterdam? Was it part of her planned European itinerary? Did she enter the UK from Heathrow or Gatwick airport? I don’t think the Orient Express went via Amsterdam and it seems like one of RB’s favourite places!

 

[ruby925]

What year did you find the council tax details for? I suppose it the current year?

Does this mean The Lodge is about £3,000 pa? I’ve seen it referred to as two flats. Did the council tax list show this? If they were separate properties then they would have separate council tax charges.

I was wondering about finding out what the individual properties were in 1983 or whenever they were there. I think the electoral roll *might* be helpful here. It’s very likely that these properties will have probably undergone a great deal of refurbishment/extension since 1980s .

it would be interesting to know who else was living in the other properties at the time they were there.

Yes, I think these are current, here is the link hopefully, showing all the properties as they are now.
Council tax bands and amounts for TN19 7HX

 

[Bibno]

Yes, I think these are current, here is the link hopefully, showing all the properties as they are now.
Council tax bands and amounts for TN19 7HX

Thanks for that, it’s really useful. It looks like the Oast and Farm are now just called The Oast.

I had a look at the gov.uk council tax info which shows properties no longer in existence. There are several flats which were part of the lodge with council tax bands A and B that no longer exist as such. It also gives various dates when changes took place.

So it looks to me as though the Lodge had been divided into flats, but has now been returned to a single property. The gov.uk site also mentions the Coach House as being part of the Lodge, it’s in band E with effect from May1998.