Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

If depends. If it's a few hours you don't leave the airport and the baggage is transferred without you seeing it.

It would be rare for a connecting flight to need an overnight stay out of the airport, unless you wanted to do that specifically to break a long journey up. In that case, you would collect your luggage and check in the following day.

I have booked separate flights (rather than connecting) to save money before. That meant arriving in Beijing, collecting the luggage and having to re-check in immediately. It was absolutely not worth the dollars saved

yes I’ve done that too.. coming home from Europe via Bangkok.. used a different airline from Thailand to Oz

 

[Estelle]

Ah no, miscommunication ….the luggage would always travel on the same flight as the passenger (measures made even stronger after the Lockerbie disaster when someone checked in a suitcase with a bomb and didn’t board the plane). When I said it would transit straight through I meant that when you checked in for your flight from Brisbane to London (via wherever) without a stopover, the luggage would be checked through to the final destination and you would not have to collect it at the transit airport and recheck it.

I agree with you, @gymtonic. Like you, I have flown with JAL from Sydney to Europe with a layover in Tokyo which can be up to 24 hours (NOT A STOPOVER). You arrive before dinner so you have a free dinner at the hotel, then a free breakfast in the morning and stay in a lovely room free of charge at the hotel near the airport. In your carryon bag, you put the clothes you are going to sleep in, your toiletries and a change of clothes. Your suitcases are left on the plane and arrive at your destination with you. We had a choice of final destinations after we had a short layover in Helsinki. We chose Amsterdam as we had arranged to pick up a car there. But you could choose other destinations including London. At Helsinki, cases are moved to your next flight. As it's with the same airline, you do not have to pick them up.

IMO it is very likely that MB met RB in Tokyo and travelled with him to either Amsterdam or London. As Marion seems to have been going overseas for a year, it is very likely that one case contained summer clothes and the other contained her winter clothes.

It is probable that whatever airport they arrived at, RB suggested to MB that she leave the case with her winter clothes and documents in a locker at the airport for safekeeping and both had the key as he could have added a small bag of his own.

Did they then take the ferry from the Hook of Holland to England or a train from Heathrow and later hire a car?

 

[gymtonic]

No. Or only if you are booked different carriers with no codeshare in my experience at the time

Another thing that I have done with different carriers and overnight “stopovers” is that I would collect my luggage from the first leg, walk it across to the check in for the second leg and check it in early…leaving me with an overnight bag/ change of clothes and avoiding me having to transport all my luggage to the stopover hotel. It depended on whether the airport or airlines allows early check-in.

I maybe missing something though….I thought the only information we had was that MB departure card was showing destination South Korea? And transiting Tokyo was supposition. I may have missed a lot of info on this.

 

[Estelle]

Another thing that I have done with different carriers and overnight “stopovers” is that I would collect my luggage from the first leg, walk it across to the check in for the second leg and check it in early…leaving me with an overnight bag/ change of clothes and avoiding me having to transport all my luggage to the stopover hotel. It depended on whether the airport or airlines allows early check-in.

I maybe missing something though….I thought the only information we had was that MB departure card was showing destination South Korea? And transiting Tokyo was supposition. I may have missed a lot of info on this.

On a timeline I read TLV stated that Marion flew via Tokyo but on her Departure card MB states that she flew to Seoul, South Korea.

In any case, Marion could have flown to Tokyo from Seoul to meet RB.

 

[centred]

The seminal point being, that as MB stated in her communications home, her luggage arrived in UK and was at some point stored away from her person. Then it was accessible by someone with a connected ID who could travel from continental Europe via ferry without a traceable passport, who could access her luggage and obtain her MB documents without her knowledge.

Oh the postcards or a phone call , can you remind everyone about that please ?

 

[gymtonic]

I agree with you, @gymtonic. Like you, I have flown with JAL from Sydney to Europe with a layover in Tokyo which can be up to 24 hours. You arrive before dinner so you have a free dinner at the hotel, then a free breakfast in the morning and stay in a lovely room free of charge at the hotel near the airport. In your bag which you take on the plane, you put the clothes you are going to sleep in, your toiletries and a change of clothes. Your suitcases are left on the plane and arrive at your destination with you. We had a choice of final destinations after we had a short layover in Helsinki. We chose Amsterdam as we had arranged to pick up a car there. But you could choose other destinations including London. At Helsinki, cases are moved to your next flight. As it's with the same airline, you do not have to pick them up.

IMO it is very likely that MB met RB in Tokyo and travelled with him to either Amsterdam or London. As Marion seems to have been going overseas for a year, it is very likely that one case contained summer clothes and the other contained her winter clothes.

It is probable that whatever airport they arrived at, RB suggested to MB that she leave the case with her winter clothes and documents in a locker at the airport for safekeeping and both had the key as he could have added a small bag of his own.

Did they then take the ferry from the Hook of Holland to England or a train from Heathrow and later hire a car?

Agree!
The thing that does puzzle me, and it obviously puzzled AC, was the South Korea choice. I was travelling the Brisbane London route A LOT, during that time as my dad was very sick. (In fact if AC were to look at my frequent travels he might ask similar questions! Of course travelling back to get money is very much less believable that’s a sick relative). Anyway, my point the choice to travel QANTAS/BA/ Singapore/ MAS/JAL/ Thai offering transits (or even stopovers) in UAE/ Singapore/ KL/ Bangkok/ Tokyo are usual choices, but choosing South Korea suggests a specific reason and I haven’t figured that out yet. AC seemed to be asking questions hinting that this suggestion was made to MB rather than her choosing this route, and that is my thinking too.

 

[Roseberry]

If depends. If it's a few hours you don't leave the airport and the baggage is transferred without you seeing it.

It would be rare for a connecting flight to need an overnight stay out of the airport, unless you wanted to do that specifically to break a long journey up. In that case, you would collect your luggage and check in the following day.

I have booked separate flights (rather than connecting) to save money before. That meant arriving in Beijing, collecting the luggage and having to re-check in immediately. It was absolutely not worth the dollars saved

Yes and no. Ive had lots of connecting flights long haul in that era where I've overnighted out of airports where baggage checked UK/Middle East/Asia etc and not seen till NZ or reverse. Travelled HK-NZ June 2021 stayed O/N transit Singapore luggage went straight through.

From memory, her communications suggest it was stored at LHR, due to unwieldiness . The important point is that at some stage MB needed to be separated from her luggage so it was accessible. If it was stored at LHR and she was separated from it, it would have been accessible by someone at a later stage to gain access either from UK or from the continent passport less via ferry.

 

[centred]

No. Or only if you are booked different carriers with no codeshare in my experience at the time

Ok thanks , so we are not privy to the flights (as yet )either of them took after the ones we have seen on the departure cards available here ?
so we don't know for sure at this stage .
Now i am wondering about the communications home re luggage again .

 

[Estelle]

Agree!
The thing that does puzzle me, and it obviously puzzled AC, was the South Korea choice. I was travelling the Brisbane London route A LOT, during that time as my dad was very sick. (In fact if AC were to look at my frequent travels he might ask similar questions! Of course travelling back to get money is very much less believable that’s a sick relative). Anyway, my point the choice to travel QANTAS/BA/ Singapore/ MAS/JAL/ Thai offering transits (or even stopovers) in UAE/ Singapore/ KL/ Bangkok/ Tokyo are usual choices, but choosing South Korea suggests a specific reason and I haven’t figured that out yet. AC seemed to be asking questions hinting that this suggestion was made to MB rather than her choosing this route, and that is my thinking too.

Yes Sally said at the inquest the her mother had never expressed any interest in Korean food or its culture. I must say that in 1997 nobody I knew ever expressed any interest in Korea. I only went there a few years ago myself to an International Rotary Convention.

All I can think of is that RB suggested she fill out that Departure card the way she did so that links would not be made to his travel via Japan but giving her another reason.

Perhaps he had collected both Arrival and Departure cards during previous trips and Marion filled out both with RB's directions before he even left Australia leaving out dates because they are never checked. I can't see Marion lying about it unless he suggested it.

Could this also be another reason why MB did not allow LL to drive her to Brisbane airport? In this case, the person farewelling you would park, help you with your cases and come with you to check in. Did Marion not want anyone to know that she was flying JAL rather than Korean Air?

 

[Estelle]

I have always predicted that MB and RB would have to have arrived together so that he could get one of her cases and documents in the same locker as his small bag and both would then have a key to it.

If they arrived separately, this would not have worked.

 

[Roseberry]

Oh the postcards or a phone call , can you remind everyone about that please ?

She kept in contact because she was planning to come home eventually, with a lovely surprise about how she had met a wonderful person who she'd married and was living a fantastic life as a housewife married in Luxembourg. She'd tied up all the suspicious and loose ends regarding TSS (returning 'stolen' property and accusations - inducements RB planted). She was keeping in touch and fully intended to return for a visit eventually: there was no intention to throw anyone of the scent, there was a glitch in getting the money for the house, and that's why she had to return to Oz on the down-low for a few days and after she returned to Lux and she was settled she'd let them all know. She fully believed in what was going to happen and what she was doing to a certain point.

 

[centred]

She kept in contact because she was planning to come home eventually, with a lovely surprise about how she had met a wonderful person who she'd married and was living a fantastic life as a housewife married in Luxembourg. She'd tied up all the suspicious and loose ends regarding TSS (returning 'stolen' property and accusations - inducements RB planted). She was keeping in touch and fully intended to return for a visit eventually: there was no intention to throw anyone of the scent, there was a glitch in getting the money for the house, and that's why she had to return to Oz on the down-low for a few days and after she returned to Lux and she was settled she'd let them all know. She fully believed in what was going to happen and what she was doing to a certain point.

Yes That is a fair and reasonable synopsis IMO ,

Can you elaborate on what it was in her communications re the luggage in her words and did she use the word unwieldiness and if so what did she mean by that ?

 

[centred]

I have always predicted that MB and RB would have to have arrived together so that he could get one of her cases and documents in the same locker as his small bag and both would then have a key to it.

If they arrived separately, this would not have worked.

How many days ahead was his departure though ? I was thinking at least a few days , i have forgotten dates at the moment , If he intending the flights to coincide for arrival together he is leaving a big gap to hang around waiting for her ? Why bother wasting all that time ?

 

[Roseberry]

Yes That is a fair and reasonable synopsis IMO ,

Can you elaborate on what it was in her communications re the luggage in her words and did she use the word unwieldiness and if so what did she mean by that ?

Don't think she used the exact word "unwieldiness" - that's all mine . I can't remember exactly, but I think she said in a postcard she was storing her luggage because it was too much to carry around? (along the lines of "I'm storing some luggage at LHR"?) It was a long time ago I heard and may not be accurate, but the point is: separation of documents form person: I think the luggage was advised by RB to be stored in both cases, ostensibly because it was too difficult to lug around, ('travel light') - but in reality he required it to be separated physically from them so he could return to where it was stored, at his leisure, in order could remove the identification and documents belonging to them he had told them to put there.

And also, overall, in hindsight and retrospect, the tone of all these communications; postcards, call to Sally, even contact with bank teller, seemed light and airy, even excited - there didn't ever seem to be any sign of oppression or duress? The postponement of the Orient Express seemed like a glitch before the continuation of a big adventure. IMO she fully believed in the dream until she was proven wrong.

 

[Roseberry]

How many days ahead was his departure though ? I was thinking at least a few days , i have forgotten dates at the moment , If he intending the flights to coincide for arrival together he is leaving a big gap to hang around waiting for her ? Why bother wasting all that time ?

He could surely not have arrived with her via any port of entry requiring a passport (ie only ferry not airport)- he was travelling on a passport which in no way could have been in the name of FMR - which she believed was his name. If she had seen this it would have been curtains. Same goes for meeting in an hotel together Korea or Japan (unless he chanced in Japan, and was rumbled by staff unbeknownst to her and was why he couldn't return).
Which is why I don't think he was ever in UK with her - he sent her there for supposed meet-up there later. He could never risk entry or exit with her where official documents were required unless it was via passportless-ferry

 

[gymtonic]

FYI
I just made contact with an OZ travel writer friend (who writes for airline magazines and has flown extensively since the early 1990s). I wanted to get their perspective on why someone would fly from Brisbane to London in 1997 with Seoul as their first stop (and possibly Tokyo as another stop). They said either that person really wanted to go to Seoul, or they got a competitive rate (since Korean Air was a secondary carrier, they would offer cheaper fares or accommodation packages to get people on board). However, they then said that they believed there was a direct route from Seoul to London and if MB went on to Tokyo that would also be more likely to be for a specific reason. This person is fairly blunt and said "No sane Aussie would fly on an Asian carrier like Korean then without an incentive".

 

[ruby925]

That’s excellent work, Sussex Sleuth. I think the Lodge is probably one of the buildings by the roadside. It seems to have been divided into two dwellings, an upstairs and a ground floor, flat.

Agreed, the roadside gate lodges were common for country houses in UK, mostly occupied by gatekeepers/estate workers with their family, almost like a security entrance today. Some are quite beautiful .. an entrance 'show off' point' by the estate owners.

 

[KittensAugustus]

I am sure this has already been looked at but you can access details of art sales (for a fee). The painting of Marion's is on here. Jamie Boyd. 1949-. Australia - List All Works

 

[KittensAugustus]

Updated to add the actual painting: Search by Title

 

[Roseberry]

FYI
I just made contact with an OZ travel writer friend (who writes for airline magazines and has flown extensively since the early 1990s). I wanted to get their perspective on why someone would fly from Brisbane to London in 1997 with Seoul as their first stop (and possibly Tokyo as another stop). They said either that person really wanted to go to Seoul, or they got a competitive rate (since Korean Air was a secondary carrier, they would offer cheaper fares or accommodation packages to get people on board). However, they then said that they believed there was a direct route from Seoul to London and if MB went on to Tokyo that would also be more likely to be for a specific reason. This person is fairly blunt and said "No sane Aussie would fly on an Asian carrier like Korean then without an incentive".

Gratis is always my favourite incentive to fly anywhere, especially if my new husband and has got a super cheap deal and springs for it. I'll maybe re-route to NRT for a quick wedding ceremony , but there's no point if my luggage is going direct to LHR and he can't access it. Cue extensive questioning on this very subject a couple of weeks back.