Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[Roseberry]

100% agree!!!!! On the money here.

I've always wondered about that too.
Mr C: "or perhaps, Lille, Mr Blum?". IMO, he aged out, his 'charm' faded and couldn't get around like he used to.

 

[Roseberry]

100% agree!!!!! On the money here.

Duplicate deleted.

 

[mishy66]

Yes I have seen that one but if you dig further it appears that husband 1 did not die until the 70s

I am still lost. Can you share this death date? I am not sure any of what you have found has been posted as most have researched this tree to the nth degree, so would love a new line of investigation.

On 17 October 1908, Congo Free State was annexed by Belgium and became known as Belgian Congo.

I think you are talking about the other Desire David - Désiré Charles Octave David ( I call him DCOD ) as I referred to him while researching this potential father of WW ( I think I gave everyone a headache when I posted my theory up haha!)


Whereas the common thought of Désiré Jean-Pierre Joseph DAVID - from the Gen Tree of Maria Coppenolle - is WW father. I call him DJPD to save confusion.

So if you mean DCOD in your post, I totally get it. I am still on this path and you should be able to do a search to find my theory on him being WW father.

 

[Zanzibar]

Yes it is weird !

The both of them, Mother and Son, are out of the country for 9 mths then return. Only to go back Overseas within a few weeks... (Arrive January and MdeH born in April Lux.) Address on passenger card is Naremburn.

Maybe she returns to pack up house or get things sorted at home given they are away now until 1986. ?

As a complete out of the box idea…. Is it possible MdH isn’t biologically DdH’s? That she was adopted and made an AUS citizen?

What we / I don’t have:

• DdH and son exiting Australia between their arrival on 21 Jan 1981 and MdH birth in Luxembourg on 17 Apr 1981.
  
• DdH, son and daughters arrival back into AUS since.

As for the addresses, I started a list but gave up in the end as there’s way too many to make any real sense without being able to look up the ownership at the time.

 

[Roseberry]

As a complete out of the box idea…. Is it possible MdH isn’t biologically DdH’s? That she was adopted and made an AUS citizen?

What we / I don’t have:

• DdH and son exiting Australia between their arrival on 21 Jan 1981 and MdH birth in Luxembourg on 17 Apr 1981.
  
• DdH, son and daughters arrival back into AUS since.

As for the addresses, I started a list but gave up in the end as there’s way too many to make any real sense without being able to look up the ownership at the time.

Wasn't there something odd about IK'b baby movements across borders - different flights to mother or something? RB only saw the baby once, 'at an airport'. I can't remember where that ended up.

 

[Zanzibar]

Wasn't there something odd about IK'b baby movements across borders - different flights to mother or something? RB only saw the baby once, 'at an airport'. I can't remember where that ended up.

Yes! It appears IKs baby travelled to Europe in a different flight than and two days earlier than it’s mother.

 

[Roseberry]

Yes! It appears IKs baby travelled to Europe in a different flight than and two days earlier than it’s mother.

Oh. Well that's not good....

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I took a little detour yesterday and drove through Burwash Common and then Burwash. It really is a quaint and beautiful village with stunning views. I’ve lived in the South East of England my whole life but never been there before. Why Burwash? It seemed from the inquest as though they had few friends and no family connection there?

 

[Roseberry]

I'm going to have a go at solving MB's movements,
It think its:

MB inbound: AUS-Seoul-Narita-LHR.
MB outbound: LHR-HKG-AUS

Reasons:
-suitcase left in UK locker for tampering - why bother to leave just one, and still lug around 3 and when you were going to hire a car anyway.
-she said in her postcard Heathrow, she has no reason to lie; if she'd wanted to be evasive she would've said "arrived" if ferry or plane "landed safely".
-if suitcase attended to at LHR, then no need to go to Amsterdam, she can go straight home.

I know JO flew Amsterdam and that seemed to be the favoured destination, but that was a different route, due to the Japan one being shut down in '97.

I think a lot depends on whether they were designed to be one way or return trips, whether it was one thing or lots of types of things being moved and for that I'll wait to see what comes of @Zanzibars post just above.

Really happy to be proven wrong & hear the obvious things I've overlooked.

 

[Roseberry]

I took a little detour yesterday and drove through Burwash Common and then Burwash. It really is a quaint and beautiful village with stunning views. I’ve lived in the South East of England my whole life but never been there before. Why Burwash? It seemed from the inquest as though they had few friends and no family connection there?

So lucky, it does sound lovely. Next time you go you should maybe take your metal detector with you, it sounds as if it's a lucky spot for finding treasure.
So no family connection, from the inquest? Missed that. Thought it maybe sounded as if there was, and as suggested DeH was going home to mother ('s family) so RB could attend to other interests. it will be interesting to hear what is discovered on that other field trip to The Keep.

 

[LouLouSleuth]

After listening to today’s podcast, and there being no apology to the real Fernand Remakel, I can only wonder if that means they think he is involved still? They have access to more information? Or have they just moved on? Or can’t say until end of inquest?

Also, what did they have to omit in the podcast? Towards the start where she said they would explain after inquest?

I know others don’t think this, but I think the real FR was a Jackarse to the team when they went there. I don’t think he should get an apology. No empathy or care for the missing woman or her family even after it was explained.

 

[centred]

So lucky, it does sound lovely. Next time you go you should maybe take your metal detector with you, it sounds as if it's a lucky spot for finding treasure.
So no family connection, from the inquest? Missed that. Thought it maybe sounded as if there was, and as suggested DeH was going home to mother ('s family) so RB could attend to other interests. it will be interesting to hear what is discovered on that other field trip to The Keep.

It sounds a bit like D might have been well and truly over gadding about RB s stomping ground firstly pregnant and then little babies , i suggest she may have suggested going back to Australia again and this time compromised on a stable place in England for awhile for the children etc .

he as usual spends enormous amounts of time away from the home ' fires still leading the double life and bringing home the bacon .

Why Burwash ? is like asking why Ballina ?

Anyway after awhile she has had enough , came home and apparently never went with him again.

The compromise .....He kept up with gadding about until he was stopped .

 

[mishy66]

I know others don’t think this, but I think the real FR was a Jackarse to the team when they went there. I don’t think he should get an apology. No empathy or care for the missing woman or her family even after it was explained.

Agree!
I also believe there is much more to this whole connection.

 

[mishy66]

What we / I don’t have:

• DdH and son exiting Australia between their arrival on 21 Jan 1981 and MdH birth in Luxembourg on 17 Apr 1981.
  
• DdH, son and daughters arrival back into AUS since.

No we dont and I wish we did!
It can only be an assumption based on his files.
And as we have seen before with the WW and IK leaving timeline, it can be that there are different dates of travel.

 

[mishy66]

@Jamaha found these entries a few days back and it shows IK left 10 May 1970 and the baby E - born 18 January 1970 ( as per my previous theory some time back -) left 2 days prior to Ilona on the 8 May 1970

IK signature on both are the same.

So she went to the airport with another person and her baby, filled out the passenger card for EJ and then someone travelled with the baby back to Belgium. IMO

@Zanzibar @Roseberry

 

[centred]

@Zanzibar @Roseberry

Are you saying one baby traveled with another person in 1970 , and there is another baby born in 1981 you are having questions about ? this baby was born in Luxembourg but the mother was in Australia and you have no proof of mother going back from Australia to give birth ?

But she and son are there ? So is it just the travel proof you don't have ?

I am confused because a member posted an idea the daughter might have been adopted , so I am
wondering why and how these ideas spring from ? What am I missing haha ?

Are people alluding to illegal adoption or something ?

I know another case here in Australia that this same scenario could be the answer to what happened to another baby that disappeared in 1997 .

 

[Zanzibar]

Are you saying one baby traveled with another person in 1970 , and there is another baby born in 1981 you are having questions about ? this baby was born in Luxembourg but the mother was in Australia and you have no proof of mother going back from Australia to give birth ?

But she and son are there ? So is it just the travel proof you don't have ?

I am confused because a member posted an idea the daughter might have been adopted , so I am
wondering why and how these ideas spring from ? What am I missing haha ?

Are people alluding to illegal adoption or something ?

I know another case here in Australia that this same scenario could be the answer to what happened to another baby that disappeared in 1997 .

It started because we can’t find any evidence of DdH being in the same side of the globe as her daughter MdH when she was born. The simplest explanation is that we just don’t have the travel details and they’re not reported in the NAA file. I was out of the box crazy thinking of another possible cause because, well, parts of this have become quite farcical and unbelievable yet true. Then add the fact one of his previous wives travelled on a separate flight several days after her newborn daughter from Australia to Europe and Ocham has completely lost his razor.

 

[Zanzibar]

Tks @mishy66 I Saw this when it was first discussed and never really felt comfortable that we had all the info. Someone had to be travelling with the baby but short of going through every passenger card I don’t know how to find who else was on that flight.

What young mother would send their firstborn infant ahead on a separate flight with someone else? Unless it was the grandmother? Or it wasn’t their baby? or they were trying to protect it? Or??

@Zanzibar @Roseberry

 

[CrossingToSafety]

I'd like some clarification on the date the last withdrawal was made at the Colonial Bank, Ashmore. Searches in this forum suggests the date was 15th October 1997. But I just saw a date of 5th October given by former director of the Salvation Army's family tracing unit Betty Brown when she told the Coroner's Court she wrote to Ms Barter's father, John Wilson, in 1998 to say Ms Barter had "definitely" been sighted at a Colonial Bank branch in Ashmore, Queensland on October 5, 1997.

Missing mother Marion Barter was 'definitely' seen at bank months after she vanished, inquest told

The important question then is when was Marion last seen..
1. At the Colonial Bank Ashmore on 5th October?
2. At the Grafton Optometrist on 13th October?
3. At Colonial Bank Ashmore on 15th October?

I see a statement on WS as follows ..
$80000 withdrawal from Ashmore branch. (Note: some MSM reported this as happening on 5th October, however the podcast team confirmed the 15th October date).

I'd love to know the actual date because if Marion was supposedly buried at Armidale, then in the 3rd scenario RB and Marion would have driven from Grafton to the bank at Ashmore say on the 15th October only to drive all the way back to Grafton and onto Armidale, assuming once RB had all the money and he would want to finalise the relationship swiftly. IMO

I don’t have an answer I’m afraid but am certainly also obsessed with MB’s last known location!
If we run with the scenario that it was indeed MB that returned to Aus, that she herself was was withdrawing money to start her new life, and using her Medicare card in Grafton - then those last locations become so important.
Why Grafton to visit an optometrist? Presumably she had to call ahead to make an appointment - so how was it convenient? Was she staying nearby in a hotel? I don’t expect she was staying at the DH residence!
It’s been clarified that no records exist, and no memory of her visit to the optometrist can be recalled by staff. I can see an OPSM shop photo amongst B&W newspaper clippings within this article about the Grafton Shopping World 30 year anniversary at this link:
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...n/news-story/c548f1a4af3daa2908eb8b4f0d69ed61
If it was OPSM they provide both the checkup, script and glasses at one location, so that rules out her going to a second eyewear shop to fill the script.

 

[mishy66]

Are you saying one baby traveled with another person in 1970 , and there is another baby born in 1981 you are having questions about ? this baby was born in Luxembourg but the mother was in Australia and you have no proof of mother going back from Australia to give birth ?

But she and son are there ? So is it just the travel proof you don't have ?

I am confused because a member posted an idea the daughter might have been adopted , so I am
wondering why and how these ideas spring from ? What am I missing haha ?

Are people alluding to illegal adoption or something ?

I know another case here in Australia that this same scenario could be the answer to what happened to another baby that disappeared in 1997 .

You have two separate posts mixed up.
This post was about IK baby.....
Nothing to do with DdeH and their children...