Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #12

[CrossingToSafety]

It makes me curious though… i’m pretty sure as well… but it makes me again wonder if French is his first language…

- OR it’s him trying to get people on the wrong track (we should have found a big incident like that, looking at the amount of people searching from around the world, like @CrossingToSafety said) But then i’m thinking: we all, i guess, searched without the forest, and didn’t find the accident… So is the incident false or the place…

- OR his French isn’t as good as we think it is. Example: i am from Belgium, i’m officially bilingual, but dont ask me to translate swine, fôret de soignes or zoniënwoud. (And that would be important because we should search in Dutch in stead of French)

@mishy66 & others who are on a specific genetic line: is it Dutch or French. Do you know?

Great to have your perspective as a Belgian @Carovb5
Thanks for those great comments. I’m going to try some Dutch papers.

 

[KiwiNZ]

double

 

[CrossingToSafety]

Exactly @Carovb5 IF French was his first language he would have used la fôret de soignes.
His father was from Belgium but he had Italian stepmother and step sister after his father married / remarried.
And if he is to be believed, his placement back to the Coppenolles after the orphanage would see him in a family with both French (Maria C ) and Dutch (Abel/ Andre Wouters).

He has no idea who he is.
I don't even think he is Willy Wouters. I think that is just another Alias.
He came out to Aust using that name in 1969 when he was 30 years old.
He had already been using aliases before that of his brother/brothers and a business setup under his current names today.
IMO

Great points @mishy66

The lack of info on the orphanage is interesting too. It’s difficult to make out the name of the town RB names as the location of the orphanage he was sent to. Did one websleuth suggest it was Ellezelles? Can anyone help?

I easily find info on war orphanages in other Belgian towns. Many protecting Jewish children.

It’s tempting to explore the Wezembeek orphanage given it was run by a ‘Madame Blum’. But that name seems to be just a convenient coincidence as the town name doesn’t match at all. Many Jewish children were sheltered there. See half way down this article.
https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/orphan...vivors-reunite-over-70-years-later-656631/amp

Have I missed any sleuthing on this subject or does anyone have some leads?

 

[BonnieB]

Great points @mishy66

The lack of info on the orphanage is interesting too. It’s difficult to make out the name of the town RB names as the location of the orphanage he was sent to. Did one websleuth suggest it was Ellezelles? Can anyone help?

I easily find info on war orphanages in other Belgian towns. Many protecting Jewish children.

It’s tempting to explore the Wezembeek orphanage given it was run by a ‘Madame Blum’. But that name seems to be just a convenient coincidence as the town name doesn’t match at all. Many Jewish children were sheltered there. See half way down this article.
https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/orphan...vivors-reunite-over-70-years-later-656631/amp

Have I missed any sleuthing on this subject or does anyone have some leads?

RB refers to the location of the orphanage twice from memory:
1. It sounds like he is saying "Ellezelles".
2. When trying to remember where his brother DD lives, he says "near the orphanage" before remembering the town of Flobecq. Flobecq is near Ellezelles.

I have searched for an orphanage or refuge during the years 1942-1951 near there to no avail.

 

[CrossingToSafety]

RB refers to the location of the orphanage twice from memory:
1. It sounds like he is saying "Ellezelles".
2. When trying to remember where his brother DD lives, he says "near the orphanage" before remembering the town of Flobecq. Flobecq is near Ellezelles.

I have searched for an orphanage or refuge during the years 1942-1951 near there to no avail.

Thanks @BonnieB
Glad it’s not just me completely lost on this one!
When he calls it an orphanage it makes it sound like a sizeable institution. Perhaps it was no more that than a small home with a handful of children at any given time.

 

[ruby925]

Great points @mishy66

The lack of info on the orphanage is interesting too. It’s difficult to make out the name of the town RB names as the location of the orphanage he was sent to. Did one websleuth suggest it was Ellezelles? Can anyone help?

I easily find info on war orphanages in other Belgian towns. Many protecting Jewish children.

It’s tempting to explore the Wezembeek orphanage given it was run by a ‘Madame Blum’. But that name seems to be just a convenient coincidence as the town name doesn’t match at all. Many Jewish children were sheltered there. See half way down this article.
https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/orphan...vivors-reunite-over-70-years-later-656631/amp

Have I missed any sleuthing on this subject or does anyone have some leads?

So interesting, and tempting to think the name Blum was used by him as an adult because of an early connection. Seems there were 4000 children that survived the war in Jewish orphanages or in hiding with false ID etc. I might listen again to WW evidence on this, but if it is a name like Meisjehuis (orphanage in Antwerp) I probably won't get it. So sad to read about all these children, heartbreaking circumstances.

 

[centred]

Just going to put up the steps that we know so far so we can eliminate or keep

So we have RPenrose Walker (policeman) married to ECAnderson 1911
Family Notices - Sunday Times (Perth, WA : 1902 - 1954) - 28 May 1911


Son RGWalker born 1912 - see attachment

The 'lightbulb' incident with Albert Anderson, Elizabeth's brother being the character reference - 1917
A Light Matter. - TWO ELECTRIC GLOBES. AND A SCADDAN CERTIFICATE. - Truth (Perth, WA : 1903 - 1931) - 25 Aug 1917
PERTH POLICE COURT. - (Thursday.—Before Mr. T. F. Davies, P.M.) - The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879 - 1954) - 17 Aug 1917

Parents divorce 1938 Trove

Hi @mishy66 Did you find James Walker his brothers and sisters and nephews from Gerringong ? If not i will pass it on

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Has any been able to find any info for RGW sister “wynne” elsie hazel Walker who married james Palme. See below. I cannot find her death but james died in Sydney and ancestry says she was born in England. I’ve looked at ryerson in case she remarried and cannot find her death in wa or vic or nsw or Qld.

The Elsie Walker I keep seeing is from Mount Druitt ??

GENERAL - Nepean Times (Penrith, NSW : 1882 - 1962) - 27 Jul 1935

Mt. Druitt - DEATH OF MISS ELSIE WALKER - Nepean Times (Penrith, NSW : 1882 - 1962) - 19 Aug 1954

And a lot of bizarre other stuff - NZ Womsn found murdered, a Melbourne woman shot in the face, a bag snatch in Canterbury

popular name

 

[ruby925]

Thanks @BonnieB
Glad it’s not just me completely lost on this one!
When he calls it an orphanage it makes it sound like a sizeable institution. Perhaps it was no more that than a small home with a handful of children at any given time.

RB definitely said 'war orphanage' but I can't decipher the name any better than Elzelles. There was a convent in Elzelles, there are accounts of orphans staying in the convents during the war (the Catholic nuns do not come out so well from the stories). Of the 7 war orphanages in Belgium for Jewish children, I have only read of Wesembeck continuing on after the war, actually until 1960. I haven't found RB yet anywhere.

 

[Liselle]

The big general strike in Belgium was December 1960-February 1961. RB said he was crushed in 1961 or 1962 when in training, dragged 300yds by a horse. DDH said in court his injuries happened during a protest. From the mounted gendarmes photo that was posted earlier, there is probably a grain of truth that anchors RB's story, google the strike and the photos show how many people took to the streets. Compensation/invalid pension could easily be verified by the authorities, so the general situation and timeline could be about right.

@ruby925 Regarding the inVALID pension received from Belgium, surely they would only forward it to an account in the original name of WW. The same goes for the Centrelink pension. I don't believe either would accommodate/approve ALL the name changes, without suspecting something that could allegedly be fraudulent. So I hope this is verified by the authorities as you suggest.

 

[ruby925]

Too late to edit my previous reply, but interesting to note most of the Jewish children in the orphanages/hiding places in WW2 changed their names to hide their heritage and if they were not in Jewish institutions, they mostly had to stop any Jewish customs/practise as well.

 

[ruby925]

@ruby925 Regarding the inVALID pension received from Belgium, surely they would only forward it to an account in the original name of WW. The same goes for the Centrelink pension. I don't believe either would accommodate/approve ALL the name changes, without suspecting something that could allegedly be fraudulent. So I hope this is verified by the authorities as you suggest.

And is this why he officially changed his name back to WW in Dec89? Must have been something to do with the Belgian connection, pension or inheritance?

 

[Carovb5]

Possibilities:
- Ronse
- Geraardsbergen

here’s a list of orphanages (weeshuizen(Dutch)) from 1904 to start from. It’s from the province of Flobecq. In the menu you can choose other provinces. Ronse & Geraardsbergen are in the list (with a bit of extra info).
sorry, it’s in Dutch

Oost-Vlaanderen | zwysen.be

RB refers to the location of the orphanage twice from memory:
1. It sounds like he is saying "Ellezelles".
2. When trying to remember where his brother DD lives, he says "near the orphanage" before remembering the town of Flobecq. Flobecq is near Ellezelles.

I have searched for an orphanage or refuge during the years 1942-1951 near there to no avail.

 

[Carovb5]

So interesting, and tempting to think the name Blum was used by him as an adult because of an early connection. Seems there were 4000 children that survived the war in Jewish orphanages or in hiding with false ID etc. I might listen again to WW evidence on this, but if it is a name like Meisjehuis (orphanage in Antwerp) I probably won't get it. So sad to read about all these children, heartbreaking circumstances.

Maybe a few dutch words to keep nearby while listening can help?
- jongen = boy
-kinderen = children
- orphanage = weeshuis / tehuis
- orphans = wezen

(meisjeshuis = meisje (girl)+huis (home)= girlshome)

otherwise indeed dutch to you might sound like chinese to me.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Not connected but a story about another fraudster scamming women. Interesting story from the 1930's

JUSTICE STORY: The love em’ and leave em’ lothario

 

[ruby925]

So far I have read over 100 summaries of personal accounts from Jewish people with connections to Belgian orphanages as children during WW2.
1. Children were often placed into care by their parents to protect them from deportation (orphans were theoretically not deported). Parents then went into hiding/got false papers/tried to keep one step ahead of being arrested etc.
2. Name changes for the children were the norm, both first names and surnames, to help disguise their heritage.
3. Children were placed into orphanages, convents, private homes and many were moved around during the war years, as life got more dangerous. Jewish children were often in Catholic homes and convents and had to 'forget' their old life and religion.
So there was a lot of 'traffic' with regard to the 'orphans', not just Belgians, but children from all over Europe being expelled from Germany, trying to escape the Nazis.
From the inquest evidence, there has been no suggestion that WW was moved from one orphanage to another, and it is not clear if he is of Jewish heritage (Chaim on driving license?) but there were clearly lots of institutions housing single children during WW2. The personal accounts are very interesting, but also very sad, there are nearly 700 stories/interviews for the search terms I used.
Nothing to pin down an orphanage/convent to fit RBs account yet.

 

[StarrChance]

Not connected but a story about another fraudster scamming women. Interesting story from the 1930's

JUSTICE STORY: The love em’ and leave em’ lothario

Quite the story, this part sounded familiar...

Perry wept on the stand, insisting that he killed no one. He also said that he had to marry all those women because they pursued him relentlessly.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Random. For anyone who hasn't discovered this yet, give it a burl, it's totally fabulous! Download this app called, Google Translate, then you use it to photograph text from the old foreign newspapers, for example, and it immediately gives you the full English translation. Wowee, it is amazing. I had been doing it just a few words at a time , but this app is brilliant. End of random.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Yes my mind went straight to RB when I read that.

Perry wept on the stand, insisting that he killed no one. He also said that he had to marry all those women because they pursued him relentlessly.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Yes my mind went straight to RB when I read that.

Interesting story Toots ..... I love this line, "Mary broke the silence. 'I brought you some oranges, George.'