Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

You have a point! I'm still trying to make sense of it. These are all the scenarios I can think of:

1. Marion stayed in UK and wrote postcards until she perished. Yet someone made it look as though she returned to Aus by using her passport, medicare and RACQ in order to make it look as though she withdrew her own money.

2. Marion returned to Aus. Yet someone made it look as though she stayed in UK by mailing postcards. This is counterproductive to a thief stealing her money in Aus as it points to fraud.

3. Marion retuned to Aus, genuinely used her passport, medicare and RACQ but the postcards were delayed. She either
- willingly withdrew her own money
- was coaxed to withdraw her money
- someone else withdrew her money
then perished.

My brain is short circuiting.

I think this means it is very UNLIKELY the postcards were planted by someone else. Marion would've posted them at the date indicated OR they were delayed. IMO.

I'm with scenario 1

Also, personally I don't necessarily think that the RACQ m'ship and Medicare use was someone trying to 'plant' proof of life.

I think someone knew that Marion was absolutely on the other side of the world and / or was no longer alive and was simply maximising and checking out the use of every facet of her identity for which they had documents.

By their way of thinking, the Medicare use could maybe come in handy. The RACQ m'ship was perhaps taking a monthly debit from the account so they wanted that stopped and maybe could find no use for it - or maybe during conversation with the bank, a helpful bank staff may have said 'if you're starting a new life overseas, would you like us to cancel all your outgoing monthly / annual payments?'.

I imagine if they did it with these two items, they did it with a whole lot more we don't know about.

 

[ruby925]

Second post of the day. If Willy Coppenolle is the real name of RB, could this be him as a child? Woesten: derde en vierde leerjaar in schooljaar 1950-1951

don't know but that boy is definitely the shortest in the class...

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Ha ha, I just found similar images. I think I can see a resemblance JMO. If it’s him it sheds some light on his orphanage.
Woesten: derde en vierde leerjaar in schooljaar 1950-1951
Woesten: vijfde en zesde leerjaar in schooljaar 1951-1952
Woesten: derde en vierde leerjaar in schooljaar 1947-1948.
Woesten: vijfde en zesde leerjaar in het schooljaar 1952-1953
Woesten: kaarterskampioen Maurice De Puydt.

Wow!!! It's HIM! Nose / ears.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I thought it was a bit odd that Marion applied for an international drivers licence, as the rail system and buses are fantastic in the UK, and most travellers wouldn't bother, unless they were going to hire a van and drive around Europe.

Buses and rail are not so great in the smaller rural areas and if she was together with RB at this phase of car hire, it would explain maybe?

 

[Bibno]

I might be missing something here but most documents, passport, drivers licence, bank accounts etc have a person's full name. There must be thousands of people with the same "J.M.F. Smith" for example.
What benefit would there be having Marion's initials match FNR's? Are there some official documents overseas that just have initials and the surname?

It used to be very common to have just the account holder's initials and surname on a UK bank account (card and cheques) and no title or other indication of gender. I know I had bank accounts with just one initial and my surname and also other accounts which had my title, two initials and a surname.

There's no solid proof putting them together in the UK.
Many people visit the same places, though usually the places that tourists go to.

I couldn't be more sure that MB's itinerary in Kent/Sussex was determined by RB.

I live in Kent, and it seem strange to me that Marion would decide to come here and spend so much time in this area rather than go to some of the many other places. I really don't think it's many people's first destination when travelling a great distance to the UK, and I'm sure she came here because it was an area RB knew well and felt very comfortable in.

I'm also sure that she would have needed a car.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yeah and you didn’t need an international license to drive around UK or many other European countries. My family and friends hired cars in UK, Ireland, Italy, Austria, USA and other places just with our Australian licenses (more than once with name discrepancies of some kind, sometimes with a stat dec to explain them)

sounds like maybe the international license was more for use as a form of ID for other purposes… ?

I was moving to the UK for a few years, I bought a car and the insurance company wanted my international drivers license or for me to change to a UK drivers license, they would not accept my NZ DL alone without the International one, so I can see how it would be of benefit if you plan to stay awhile, buy a car etc.. but I agree not just for a trip using a rental car, its not needed

 

[ruby925]

Second post of the day. If Willy Coppenolle is the real name of RB, could this be him as a child? Woesten: derde en vierde leerjaar in schooljaar 1950-1951

don't know but that boy is definitely the shortest in the class...

I was moving to the UK for a few years, I bought a car and the insurance company wanted my international drivers license or for me to change to a UK drivers license, they would not accept my NZ DL alone without the International one, so I can see how it would be of benefit if you plan to stay awhile, buy a car etc.. but I agree not just for a trip using a rental car, its not needed

But as far as we know, Marion intended to stay in Europe for a year, so an IDL would make sense.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Why would anyone believe a word he says? He stole $30k from GGB in Australia, attempted blackmail in Australia, entered Australia on a fraudulent passport, stole jewellery from JO in Australia, obtained his Australian citizenship by fraud...I could go on.

Nothing RB says can be believed - in fact the opposite - when he CHOOSES to 'say' things he does so deliberately to give opposing, misdirecting, false, misleading, information. In fact one could look at the areas where he volunteers information as being the most important. Whatever he says is the opposite.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If this scenario did happen, then we know why AKA wouldn't have travelled back into AUS with MB, but what would he have told her?

I imagine when flying he asks for disability seats - extra leg room. That probably gets him upgraded often too.

As for how he could always travel separately - maybe in line with a 'Special Agent' persona or some kind of business reasons he would claim that his employers are booking his flights and he cannot be seen travelling with someone else. Let's face, it he's a liar. He lies all day long. Coming up with lies is his specialist subject area. So we may struggle to imagine but he doesn't.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes to all those crimes and more, I agree you could go on, he is a liar. It was the way how he said it that he had done nothing in Australia. Why say only Australia? Makes me think did something happen in Hong Kong? He's never been back there, or was it Tokyo?

I suspect he says he's done nothing in Australia as he doesn't want to be deported from Australia. His family and home base are in Australia and he's elderly.

Also, since he double speaks, then he is actually stating he has done things in australia.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Thank you for clarifying the telephone call / message. IIRC, SL remembers the call dropping out and MB saying something along the lines of "You talk, I'll just listen.".

That brings to my mind an image of MB putting her hand over the receiver to block out airport sounds or foreign voices.

We weren't in the age of fibre optic back then. I don't recall calls dropping out as much. There were echoes and delays, of course.

OR someone was with her. Interfering with her call. Telling her what to say. Telling her to get off the phone?

Heck she could have been held hostage and have a gun to her head in that type of scenario.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Excellent sleuthing. Hmm, unfortunately I can't see the resemblance of Man of Many Names to the images of W.Coppenolle in the yearbooks posted. In the yearbooks, the ears are small, high and poke out. Whereas RB has low, large and flat ears that are flush with his face (don't poke out). RB also has a very round chin and round babyface as an adult whereas the last WC pic doesn't. IMO.

Although... in the yearbooks, he is the smallest one. That might explain the shin scars from leg lengthening surgery. Hehehe, I'm joking. I honestly can't see the resemblance.

 

[LKSNZ]

Just keep it simple. MB met RB. (May have thought he was FN Remakle). For whatever reason MB who is totally sucked in keeps the relationship a secret from family and friends. She is persuaded to change her name to match his international drivers licence so she can use it as a form of ID to get passport in a hurry. Brings forward her resignation so she can be overseas same time as him and or he needs to get her out of Aussie ASAP before family can interfere. Not able to travel together as she would discover he has passport in a different name. MB returns to Aussie putting things in place so that family think she is still in UK. Takes longer to sort out bank than anticipated. In meantime tidies up a few things like cancelling car insurance and getting an eye check. Notices that Sally has not put car money in bank as agreed. RB also returns to Aussie a couple of days later and buys a car for her to use? Then something unexpected happens and she does not return overseas as planned. There is no doubt that RB and MB did meet up in England and when she returned to Aussie. RB is well aware of her fate. The car that was disposed off is an interesting twist. He is not as smart as he thinks he is.

 

[gymtonic]

Ha ha, I just found similar images. I think I can see a resemblance JMO. If it’s him it sheds some light on his orphanage.
Woesten: derde en vierde leerjaar in schooljaar 1950-1951
Woesten: vijfde en zesde leerjaar in schooljaar 1951-1952
Woesten: derde en vierde leerjaar in schooljaar 1947-1948.
Woesten: vijfde en zesde leerjaar in het schooljaar 1952-1953
Woesten: kaarterskampioen Maurice De Puydt.

The image for 1952-53 does look similar to the 1969 migration document photo. We know he had what was described as black hair (that has been on several early docs). Side parting on this and the passport/ immigration docs. The nose is similar. The ears always look bigger when young than older. I know! all my family have big ears that looked more monstrous when young than now.
The last one changed my mind though.
Anyone else interested in Roger Laseure in several photos? I read all the names to see if there were any alias sources! That name could probably be pronounced Rowjzeh Lazuray if there was an accent aigu (é) on the last e and as this is written in Dutch there are no accents shown.

 

[KiwiNZ]

If Marion was alive on the 30th of August and posted the postcard, would she not be missing all of her ID, credit cards, passport, that the Marion stand in had stolen to return to Australia with ?

I realise there is not a straight forward answer and every scenario has holes but I struggle with her been alive to post the post card and at the same time someone impersonating her and returning to Aus with her identification

I still think there is a chance the postcards were delayed, stuck somewhere, not collected or she herself had someone post them, but since she only intended to be in Aus 8 days ,...hum I don’t know

 

[Procrastinator]

Just been reading over the postcards and letter again Marion sent.
It is heartbreaking knowing what we know now - her writings are so uplifting, like she is having the time of her life.
Not the sort of letters one would write if they were leaving forever and never wanting to see their loved ones again.

I have no doubt now she is traveling about on her own. She pretty much indicates this numerous times.

The postcard to her sister marked 7 August 1997 where she says she has delayed her Orient Express trip until late August due to first available booking rescheduling from a recent flood is interesting.

She still has her heart set on this trip so there is no doubt she is doing it.

When she calls Sally that one last time to say she won't phone much as she is going to enjoy her holiday, I think she meant just that......."I don’t want to leave The UK just yet...."
She told Sally she would be back for her wedding the following October.
‘I’m going to take a good break now,’ Mum said. ‘I’m not going to keep writing postcards to everyone.’
‘Of course, take it easy Mum,’ Sally told her.

I think she was really finally unwinding after a horrendous year thanks to Glover and crew.

WHY would a postcard be posted on August 7 when Marion was supposedly back in Australia August 2nd.

And why would Marion declare she was only staying in Aust for 8 days, and staying in a hotel, and NOT contact Sally even if she felt embarrassed she had been duped. She could have called her friend Lesley to help her if she didn't want to reach out to Sally, but at some point I believe Marion WOULD have made contact with Sally. Her postcards home tell how much she loved her.

I can not believe that Marion would come into the country for ONLY 8 days and not start withdrawing her money straight away if that was the reason.

Why would Marion write "Luxembourg Housewife" on her entry card back into Australia when she was in the UK ???

I am back in the Marion did not come home camp.
I think she was killed overseas with one of RB associates - the same people JO was told to contact.
I think another female came in on FNMR passport.

Maybe Marion was already in Hong Kong the last phone call to SL and said "I'm not going to keep writing postcards to everyone" because she couldn't . The fact that AKA hasn't given one believable reason/lie/story/excuse as to why he hasn't returned to Hong Kong is a big red flag. Something happened in Hong Kong.

 

[Bagpus]

OR someone was with her. Interfering with her call. Telling her what to say. Telling her to get off the phone?

Heck she could have been held hostage and have a gun to her head in that type of scenario.

Indeed, maybe someone was with her.

 

[Clarityn]

Still new to posting so apologies if repeating anything & building off other points.

Passenger cards - IMO including from an artistic / calligraphy lens the cards were not written by MB.

Putting aside the style & recognising forgery can happen e.g different E’s

Card 1 Says country of birth “Australian” not Australia - why would MB make that error
Card 1 misspells Luxembourg - would MB make that error?

Card 2 Says country / Australia & correctly spells Luxembourg

 

[KiwiNZ]

Maybe Marion was already in Hong Kong the last phone call to SL and said "I'm not going to keep writing postcards to everyone" because she couldn't . The fact that AKA hasn't given one believable reason/lie/story/excuse as to why he hasn't returned to Hong Kong is a big red flag. Something happened in Hong Kong.

I could be wrong but I thought it was Japan RB was tackled over, why he had not used JAL via Tokyo again after 97

 

[JayJayJay]

OK my answer, hypothesis, to this one is :

RB wrote them both out in his usual block capital handwriting? (we will need to know what his usual block capital handwriting looks like).

He wrote the information on both out but he did not go so far as to sign the date and signature because he handed them to two different people who did that bit themselves.

- or - he said 'you sign it and I'll fill the detail'

Marion signed her new signature on the way out of Aus.

Another woman signed a signature that is not hers on the way into Aus.

The only bit he wanted to control and be sure of was the information. He didn't care too much if the signatures mis-matched. Also the signatures, by rights should both match the one inside the passport.

What woman was RB bringing into Aus? An accomplice? His wife - had she flown out to the UK on any name, maybe she is a woman of many passports too?

Or was she simply an unlawful immigrant to whom he had sold on the passport?

Is that why he wants to go to a particular place in the UK? To set someone he knows of up with an entry passport into Aus?

I also think they were partly pre filled in by RB.
The Home Duties is not something I thought MB would write, being a teacher myself, I would expect her to write Teacher even though she wasn't working at the time. Remember how RB made a big deal of his "photographer" occupation as he didn't want to be seen as a 'pensioner'? That suggests or hints at his work in faking occupations on these cards.