Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[ruby925]

I browse through the series - this is outgoing passenger cards A1198, I go to the relevant year bracket and surname range then jump to different pages to narrow into the surname I want (they’re listed alphabetically). Tricky with all his aliases!

oh thank you, I will delve into the series now!

 

[ruby925]

BBM
Could someone please confirm the date he was arrested.
Ruby states June 1971 but I have on my timeline:
9 Dec 1971 – WW 4 years prison in France
Which date is correct?

I have him as arrested 23Jun1971 in Rouen, sentenced to 4years prison in Dec 71.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I browse through the series - this is outgoing passenger cards A1198, I go to the relevant year bracket and surname range then jump to different pages to narrow into the surname I want (they’re listed alphabetically). Tricky with all his aliases!

Great find. When I go into the NAA website it only shows Passenger Arrivals. Where do you find the departures Passenger cards?

 

[Estelle]

Yes agree.
There is a lot more to play out here. I have been doing some research with that and have found a few interesting 'coincidences' that need further investigating. I think there is a LOT more to the DW and WW met up in 1970.

I now think you are correct, Mishy, as we have more information since you first posted your theory of DW and WW meeting in Sydney in 1970. IMO it is too much of a coincidence that WW would go to the UK and choose to book on the Chusan to return to Australia as he usually flew via Qantas in those days. Even though he left with IK on the same flight, it appears that he used IK to get residency in Australia. It looks as if he must have used faked documents for the Marriage Certificate as they both arrived putting Never Married on their Arrival cards and on leaving, he put Divorced. I doubt that RB has ever worked as a photographer in his life but he put it on his departure card.

The only business we know about which DW's parents had was a cafe. So my theory used to be that he either worked there for them or went there often for a coffee. My guess it was either in Bondi or Paddington. This gave him the opportunity to spin his stories to DW and her parents and they were probably impressed. During these conversations, they probably told him that they had booked a cruise on the Chusan.

But this theory cannot be correct as DW was overseas for 14 months in England as they returned in March, 1971 so they must have departed about January, 1970. WW did not arrive in Australia until 24 May 1969.

So did DW and WW simply meet at the hotel before embarking on the ship as RB told us? IMO it seems to be such an unusual thing for him to do unless he had prior knowledge of someone going on it. I had never heard of this ship before.

Had RB planned to travel on this ship to Australia to meet wealthy women just as Don Juan had done on trains?

I'd be interested to know your theories on this.

 

[Jamaha]

Great find. When I go into the NAA website it only shows Passenger Arrivals. Where do you find the departures Passenger cards?[/QUOTE
If you go Advanced search > Series > enter A1198 in series field then select 4084 which should be highlighted. From there I find the year and surname bracket I’m after.

 

[Jamaha]

Great find. When I go into the NAA website it only shows Passenger Arrivals. Where do you find the departures Passenger cards?

If you go Advanced search > Series > enter A1198 in series field then select 4084 which should be highlighted. From there I find the year and surname bracket I’m after.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Hi all, first time poster, but have been following the podcast for the last few years. As I live in Sussex, England, I thought I’d follow up on the Sussex connections, so paid a quick visit to the local records office today, and this is what I found in the 1980s local Burwash parish magazine.

Both of the children were baptised in Burwash church on 1 December 1984, see photo, so that’s gives us a definite date when they were living here. There is an entertaining article in the magazine from another Australian woman living in Burwash at the same time, so I am going to try and find out if she is still around, as she may well have known them.

Also I looked in the old phone books and were 2 other Wouters living locally in the 1960s and 1970s, in Rye and in Pembury (village just outside of Tunbridge Wells). Have attached a pic of their entries. I know it is a common name in Belgium and The Netherlands so it may just be a coincidence, but I thought someone might be able to check the family trees to see if there is anyone with the same initials?

Ran out of time today but will got back next weekend and look through old local newspapers from the 1980s and also around the time Marion visited.

Great stuff Sussex sleuth! I wonder if you are able to look at the Electoral rolls on your next visit? We know Mr & Mrs aka liked filing them out in Australia! I’m so intrigued what name Mr aka was using in East Sussex at that time?

 

[Estelle]

I have him as arrested 23Jun1971 in Rouen, sentenced to 4years prison in Dec 71.

Thanks. I have several timelines and one did not have the arrest listed. So RB would have arrived in Amsterdam on about 14th May, 1971 and within five weeks, he was arrested in France! The four years in prison must have been for previous crimes and perhaps a new crime where he was caught and arrested. Then he writes to DW from prison for four years. I wonder if her parents ever knew about his crimes. Maybe she used a POBox.

 

[brjakj]

I’ve found his outgoing passenger card - left on 12.5.71 on flight QF 735 in the name of Fred David or Fredi David.
View digital copy
Page 2853

edit - I think he says he’s disembarking in Amsterdam.

Is it just me or does he have the girliest looking handwriting? Was he travelling with someone else at this time I wonder?

 

[Aldona]

Great stuff Sussex sleuth! I wonder if you are able to look at the Electoral rolls on your next visit? We know Mr & Mrs aka liked filing them out in Australia! I’m so intrigued what name Mr aka was using in East Sussex at that time?

Good idea, I didn’t realise that they would be eligible to vote here. Will try to track them down next week!

 

[Jamaha]

Is it just me or does he have the girliest looking handwriting? Was he travelling with someone else at this time I wonder?

It’s quite odd. If you look through the next few pages after his departure card you have Ilona leaving on QF530 on 10.5.70 (handwriting looks to be someone else’s) and then another card for Ilona EJ (who I’m thinking is their baby daughter) on KL844 on 8.5.70. Not sure why mum and baby are not travelling together??

 

[ruby925]

deleted, might have inadvertently broken the rules

 

[hoodunnit]

It’s quite odd. If you look through the next few pages after his departure card you have Ilona leaving on QF530 on 10.5.70 (handwriting looks to be someone else’s) and then another card for Ilona EJ (who I’m thinking is their baby daughter) on KL844 on 8.5.70. Not sure why mum and baby are not travelling together??

What surname was Ilona travelling as please ?

 

[Jamaha]

What surname was Ilona travelling as please ?

Wouters

 

[hoodunnit]

Wouters

Thank you☺

 

[mishy66]

I’ve found his outgoing passenger card - left on 12.5.71 on flight QF 735 in the name of Fred David or Fredi David.
View digital copy
Page 2853

edit - I think he says he’s disembarking in Amsterdam.

Well done again @Jamaha !

There is no mistaking his signature again ( maybe that is how they found all the aliases! - he forgot about that small detail by the looks so far ha!)

 

[mishy66]

BBM
Could someone please confirm the date he was arrested.
Ruby states June 1971 but I have on my timeline:
9 Dec 1971 – WW 4 years prison in France
Which date is correct?

Yes so confusing with different dates .

 

[mishy66]

I have him as arrested 23Jun1971 in Rouen, sentenced to 4years prison in Dec 71.

That is what I have too, phew. It gets so confusing at times!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I have no problem going with Mishy s take as it is something very close to what line of thinking over the past few days or so after seeing other clues come in ..Mishy has been working on it longer and has fallen in place for her as a more formed idea ...when i found the "passy " in the article that pretty much clinches it for me ...

However i keep swinging back and forth between this scenario of Don Juan being his father or his mentor , or he is both .

Either or either i feel satisfied i know enough to move forward and work backwards .

I am learning toward mentor rather than father for these reasons: I can’t find a Belgium link for him. His wife died in Portugal he died in southern France. One child that I can find from her first marriage And no mention of children between the two. (That’s not to say they didn’t have kids)
she used Jeanne with first husband and a middle name Alice with Don Juan so there’s a lot of different trees.
Surprisingly not all trees list Alice’s brother Felix who was from my understanding a French ambassador. (If My French guessing translation is correct)

So the similarities between RB and Don Juan are uncanny BUT I cant find proof. At least not proper proof of birth certificate with Don Juan as the father of any male children.

But he may have changed his name.. which doesn’t explain his death certificate in his real name.

mishy’s take on it is an interesting theory due to the fact she is unable to find anything on Abel…. So him being Don Juan isn’t that left of field.. not when it comes to this case/name changes/and bizarre twists and turns.

If true it would also cement the early exposure to RB of changing identity at an early age when you get in hot water as I believe this is ingrained in him.

on the flip side it could just be that RB really has no idea who his birth parents are and has created a ‘fantasy’ a term he he likes to use.. and modelled himself on Don Juan. From learning or hearing about the famous train swindler man in his formative teen years. Because in his mind he naturally gravitated to a person like that rather than the family he was with whether they are adopted or real.

Don Juan was much more exciting to a person who is lost and looking for a place to belong.

and he’s a lazy arse.. so he found a career without actually having to work.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Wasn't he wowing Ilona in 1968 ? where was she living , he might have crossed a border



hah I was just thinking that he actually thinks he is him in a way ...

Spot on!