Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Didn't he at some point mention JW being in Switzerland for a training camp? The article stated this was JW's third world cup campaign, but as far as I can see, Australia only made it to the world cup finals for the first time in 1974. However JW made international debut in 1965, played for Stockport County in UK in 1964 (Wikopedia)

JW & Marion only came to the UK once on Tuesday 3 Sept 1968 (Wikipedia is wrong). Stockport County paid their flight tickets of £300 and they also provided them with a loan for accommodation (I don’t have the details for this). The Stockport Advertiser also mentioned JWs wish to get a coaching badge.

JWs last game for Stockport County Reserves (he never played for the 1st team) was on the 25 Nov 1968.

It was reported on the 9 Jan 1969 that JW had left the club.

We know from the Passenger cards that JW & Marion arrived back in Australia on the 2 Feb 1969 flying via Nadi in Fiji.

The timescale for any improbable visit to Switzerland is very limited. If someone can tell me what Mr aka was up to in this time period it might confirm yet another untruth.

 

[ruby925]

deleted as info on a previous post

 

[Meligator]

JW & Marion only came to the UK once on Tuesday 3 Sept 1968 (Wikipedia is wrong). Stockport County paid their flight tickets of £300 and they also provided them with a loan for accommodation (I don’t have the details for this). The Stockport Advertiser also mentioned JWs wish to get a coaching badge.

JWs last game for Stockport County Reserves (he never played for the 1st team) was on the 25 Nov 1968.

It was reported on the 9 Jan 1969 that JW had left the club.

We know from the Passenger cards that JW & Marion arrived back in Australia on the 2 Feb 1969 flying via Nadi in Fiji.

The timescale for any improbable visit to Switzerland is very limited. If someone can tell me what Mr aka was up to in this time period it might confirm yet another untruth.

Renov Pubs was registered October 1, 1968. So he wasn’t in Switzerland that day at least. (Maybe why he denies registering the company).

 

[centred]

On the relationship between Mr and Mrs Many-Names.

I am wondering if there is a huge degree of coercive control going here. Whenever they met, and whatever name he was using, she was in her teens and he was older. Potentially up to 10 years older. We know he has a loooooong history of targeting and manipulating women he perceived as vulnerable. Why would we think young Diane would be anyone different? So he marries her, then moves her around Europe, UK, Tasmania, various parts of mainland Aus. She doesn't work - perhaps she is his "carer" perhaps he won't let her. She's never anywhere long enough to put down roots, make friends. As soon as she is getting into community things through the kids, he's up and moving them off somewhere else. The kids grow up, leave home in the late 90s. She's now in her 40s/50s, no friends, no work history, no support network. She's perhaps had 40 odd years of him telling her that she's thick, useless, who would want her anyway, no self-confidence, no option but to stay with him and turn a blind eye to his goings on.

I'm not saying it happened. But I am saying that having seen it happen to a friend who went from being a confident and happy teenager to utterly dependent on a horrible controlling husband that it could easily have happened.

She has one name change only - and that was from her birth surname to her married surname. Had she been an accomplice, she'd have been changing her name too. Or he'd have been changing it for her. I got the impression of her as "the little woman at home", totally in thrall to her husband and beaten down after being told how useless she is and how she's lucky to have him for 50 odd years.

I think your pretty spot on i was thinking this watching her in court .

I am thinking it is possible she could be so "bewitched" by him she may have done his bidding for him at times .

Many women obviously did ..so why not D ? probably especially her ...sadly

 

[centred]

Newspaper article mentions his wife saying what a great husband and father he has been. So they def had a child… BUT what I have found is she was married earlier and SHE had a son with her first husband..

• Married 25 July 1920, Gap, 05000, Hautes-Alpes, Provence-Alpes-Côte-d'Azur, FRANCE, to Jean REVILLIOD 1893-1927 (Parents :Augustin REVILLIOD 1859-1927 & Isabelle GINET 1864-1961) with
  • 
    Jacques Philippe André REVILLIOD 1921-2000

Her husband died in 1927

Don Juan and Alice were married in 1933.

Oh well that might have put a spanner in the works then ....

 

[vivienbee]

Yeah well that was the first thought that my skeptical self asked ....but then i remembered she was from a prominent family so he might have targeted her ...on a train LOL ...its not a stretch when i thought on it ..but like i said after answering all my own questions on the theory besides the other one i have had ...

That he was just as fascinated with Desire David as i have been ...

There are a lot of reasons i can see ALL the clues actually fit when you go with it ...

I think it's also possible and perhaps somewhat more plausible to me that RB heard about his father Desiree David from his mother or relatives, went searching for more information about him (as he passed away when RB was in the orphanage according to his timeline), and found the wrong DD. Then, having built up an affinity for the man he believed to be his father, especially if he was having problems with AW/rebelling/etc., he may have started to idolise him and thus went on to replicate some of his actions.

[Edit: Especially because if the story about the orphanage is true, this would majorly impact a child's attachment development, identity and sense of belonging.]

 

[centred]

Renov Pubs was registered October 1, 1968. So he wasn’t in Switzerland that day at least. (Maybe why he denies registering the company).

Wasn't he wowing Ilona in 1968 ? where was she living , he might have crossed a border

I think it's also possible and perhaps somewhat more plausible to me that RB heard about his father Desiree David from his mother or relatives, went searching for more information about him (as he passed away when RB was in the orphanage according to his timeline), and found the wrong DD. Then, having built up an affinity for the man he believed to be his father, especially if he was having problems with AW/rebelling/etc., he may have started to idolise him and thus went on to replicate some of his actions.

[Edit: Especially because if the story about the orphanage is true, this would majorly impact a child's attachment development, identity and sense of belonging.]

hah I was just thinking that he actually thinks he is him in a way ...

 

[Bibno]

On the relationship between Mr and Mrs Many-Names.

I am wondering if there is a huge degree of coercive control going here. Whenever they met, and whatever name he was using, she was in her teens and he was older. Potentially up to 10 years older. We know he has a loooooong history of targeting and manipulating women he perceived as vulnerable. Why would we think young Diane would be anyone different? So he marries her, then moves her around Europe, UK, Tasmania, various parts of mainland Aus. She doesn't work - perhaps she is his "carer" perhaps he won't let her. She's never anywhere long enough to put down roots, make friends. As soon as she is getting into community things through the kids, he's up and moving them off somewhere else. The kids grow up, leave home in the late 90s. She's now in her 40s/50s, no friends, no work history, no support network. She's perhaps had 40 odd years of him telling her that she's thick, useless, who would want her anyway, no self-confidence, no option but to stay with him and turn a blind eye to his goings on.

I'm not saying it happened. But I am saying that having seen it happen to a friend who went from being a confident and happy teenager to utterly dependent on a horrible controlling husband that it could easily have happened.

She has one name change only - and that was from her birth surname to her married surname. Had she been an accomplice, she'd have been changing her name too. Or he'd have been changing it for her. I got the impression of her as "the little woman at home", totally in thrall to her husband and beaten down after being told how useless she is and how she's lucky to have him for 50 odd years.

I have bern thinking the same, there must be a high degree of coercive control here. She’s probably. This article by Laura Richards, who campaigned to have the law changed in the UK to make coercive control a crime, describes it very well.

So, what exactly is coercive control? - Laura Richards

 

[mishy66]

So do you mean that Maria was married to someone called Désiré Jean-Pierre Joseph DAVID and then just so happened to also have an affair with someone called Desiré Charles Octave DAVID? Do you think they were related to each other in some way? Because otherwise that coincidence seems huge.

No, I didnt say that.
What I said was, "So my thinking is MC had an affair with AB - who's real name is Desiré Charles Octave DAVID
Born 2 November 1895 - Le Péage-de-Roussillon, 38298, Isère, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, FRANCE
and had no choice but to change his name after the 1934 trial because he was a highly publicised branded criminal".

* on a side note - I see that I typed AB but I meant AW ( I was thinking of Abel and accidently put a B not a W)

 

[Meligator]

hah I was just thinking that he actually thinks he is him in a way ...[/QUOTE]


One of the Don Juan articles it mentions an accomplice (sister and girlfriend I think). Wonder if at some point (Perhaps as a teen) RB became don juans accomplice

 

[ruby925]

JW & Marion only came to the UK once on Tuesday 3 Sept 1968 (Wikipedia is wrong). Stockport County paid their flight tickets of £300 and they also provided them with a loan for accommodation (I don’t have the details for this). The Stockport Advertiser also mentioned JWs wish to get a coaching badge.

JWs last game for Stockport County Reserves (he never played for the 1st team) was on the 25 Nov 1968.

It was reported on the 9 Jan 1969 that JW had left the club.

We know from the Passenger cards that JW & Marion arrived back in Australia on the 2 Feb 1969 flying via Nadi in Fiji.

The timescale for any improbable visit to Switzerland is very limited. If someone can tell me what Mr aka was up to in this time period it might confirm yet another untruth.

So was MB with JW when he was with the Aus world cup squad at the training camp in Switzerland 1974, at any point until they left 10Jun? RB released from Valenciennes prison in 1974, I don't have a note of the date, but prob a small window.

 

[mishy66]

IMO I think that DdH could have played the role that you have described to the outside world and maybe even to her own children. However, I suspect that there is another side to her.

Most of us who were posting here on the days she appeared at the inquest, were totally shocked when we heard she wrote to RB in prison for three years after they met on the Chusan. It wasn't as if they were even engaged at the time, she had only known him for a few months and she was 20yo in 1971 with better choices for a husband than a criminal. I then started questioning her ethics and by the time she completed giving her evidence, most of us here decided that she was at least a liar.

I have never thought that DdH would have been RB's accomplice at any other time other than in Marion's case as there's no evidence - yet. But, IMO if RB needed a woman to impersonate Marion, she would have agreed and done whatever he asked her to do.

Yes agree.
There is a lot more to play out here. I have been doing some research with that and have found a few interesting 'coincidences' that need further investigating. I think there is a LOT more to the DW and WW met up in 1970.

 

[mishy66]

Their children would have been 3 and 5yo at the time when they were christened in 1984. I must say I am shocked that they would have their children christened. I just can't imagine RB in a church unless he had another agenda. He did say he returned on weekends.

Oh I can!

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

So was MB with JW when he was with the Aus world cup squad at the training camp in Switzerland 1974, at any point until they left 10Jun? RB released from Valenciennes prison in 1974, I don't have a note of the date, but prob a small window.

I believe JW & Marion split in 1971. The chances of Marion & Mr aka meeting in Switzerland in 68/69 and then he replying to her lonely hearts ad in Australia nearly 3 decades later must be on a par of finding Lord Lucan living on Mars.

 

[ruby925]

I believe JW & Marion split in 1971. The chances of Marion & Mr aka meeting in Switzerland in 68/69 and then he replying to her lonely hearts ad in Australia nearly 3 decades later must be on a par of finding Lord Lucan living on Mars.

Agreed. JW has 9 arrival cards between '67 and '70, presume more after 72 not accessible, maybe RB met JW at some point, or MB may have told RB that JW was in Switzerland in the late 60s and RB has then fabricated the story from there...

 

[Jamaha]

From the very beginning RB was using Australia as a getaway. Going in and out with various passports. From one of the 1980 investigations:

- 1969, Oct - Days after getting 3 mo residence status, Willy Wouters leaves AUS, in an unknown name.

- 1969 Nov - AUS Immigration issues a "stop" card for him. He's not to leave AUS without questioning. They were already suspicious. 1969!

- 1970 bef Feb - WW returns to AUS in unknown name.

- 1970, 15 Feb - WW leaves AUS as Willy Wouters.

- 1971 - returns to AUS via ship on which he meets Diane. Using name Fredy David. Enters AUS on unknown name.

- 1971, by Dec - leaves AUS in unknown name.

I know you guys are light years ahead of me, but I'm trying to get an idea of how RB operated. He was a full-on, non-stop criminal before his first step on AUS soil and his first snuggle with young Diane.

I’ve found his outgoing passenger card - left on 12.5.71 on flight QF 735 in the name of Fred David or Fredi David.
View digital copy
Page 2853

edit - I think he says he’s disembarking in Amsterdam.

 

[KiwiNZ]

l

 

[ruby925]

I’ve found his outgoing passenger card - left on 12.5.71 on flight QF 735 in the name of Fred David or Fredi David.
View digital copy
Page 2853

edit - I think he says he’s disembarking in Amsterdam.

Wow, brilliant bit of searching, well done! So (as he said) he only stayed a few weeks and then back to Europe for a bit of crime, but arrested Jun71.
Can I ask what search you use to get the records please? I can see you have had to look at thousands, but wonder what search criteria you are using? Thanks

 

[Estelle]

Wow, brilliant bit of searching, well done! So (as he said) he only stayed a few weeks and then back to Europe for a bit of crime, but arrested Jun71.
Can I ask what search you use to get the records please? I can see you have had to look at thousands, but wonder what search criteria you are using? Thanks

BBM
Could someone please confirm the date he was arrested.
Ruby states June 1971 but I have on my timeline:
9 Dec 1971 – WW 4 years prison in France
Which date is correct?

 

[Jamaha]

Wow, brilliant bit of searching, well done! So (as he said) he only stayed a few weeks and then back to Europe for a bit of crime, but arrested Jun71.
Can I ask what search you use to get the records please? I can see you have had to look at thousands, but wonder what search criteria you are using? Thanks

I browse through the series - this is outgoing passenger cards A1198, I go to the relevant year bracket and surname range then jump to different pages to narrow into the surname I want (they’re listed alphabetically). Tricky with all his aliases!