Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #21

[mishy66]

I was hoping to get more laughs out of my above post .

It was a post in jest, satire if you like

I should have added that the only job I thought he might have got was more scams in the works, though maybe his ability to ditch his victims might be a bit rusty and beyond him these days.

Yes I thought it funny

 

[mishy66]

Joni spoke of finding newspaper stories of him as a child but still no mention of finding the story of his infamous ‘orse accident in the park.

The stories we all found about his teen thefts with his dodgy mates ...

And the motorbike cross perhaps?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I imagine the aims of the inquest are :

~ do we have sufficient evidence and justification to believe M nor only disappeared but lost her life in 1997?

~ do we have sufficient evidence that RB was certainly directly linked to M’s disappearance?

~ do we have sufficient testimonies from RB to prove areas he has certainly lied and therefore his word means nothing legally?

~ do we have the legal right or sufficient grounds to investigate further as to whether RB possibly in fact murdered M?

Sadly IMO these things may be difficult to prove to a legal level re M but here’s hoping and also clearly for RB his nefarious conduct is known and would surely result in a variety of charges for all his frauds against various countries admin and international law.

Great questions! I’ve been thinking about them a lot. Going by other inquests I've followed, I definitely think (IMO) they’ll agree she’s deceased:

There's been no activity or signs of life since the withdrawal/transfer on 15 October. Her medicare and passport haven't been used since August 1997. There have been no legal name changes, and she hasn't touched her superannuation. So at a minimum, she has been deceased since reaching retirement age.

However, she left about $14k in Barclays/CBA account so that suggests she died before she had the opportunity to use it or withdraw/transfer it like the rest of her money. In 2004, her Barclays/CBA money became unclaimed due to 7 years of inactivity, suggesting she's been deceased since 1997.

More so, if Marion's aim was to "take all her money and start a new life overseas" as some people claim, she failed! According to her passenger cards, her intention was to see her family in Australia then go Luxembourg to be a housewife. So at most, she became deceased before she could see her family and fly out of Australia. Given that she failed to call her son on the 18 October for his birthday, it’s likely she became deceased sometime after her last bank activity, between the 15-18 October, in Australia.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

~ do we have sufficient evidence that RB was certainly directly linked to M’s disappearance?

I wonder what date they consider her disappearance to be? I’m guessing 18 October - that’s when her family knew something was wrong and what prompted them to go to police.

Typically, the inquest will try to answer "what were the circumstances leading up to the disappearance?”. In that case, I imagine the argument will be that:

Marion's circumstances were similar to that of the witness' circumstances. Witnesses established RB's pattern of targeting single women and engaging in intimate, deceitful and coercive relationships; trying to convince them to sell their home; helping them pack their belongings; enticing them to go overseas to start a new life; then disappearing with their money, ID and valuables.

Corroborating this, RB openly admits that despite being married, he WAS in an intimate relationship with Marion right up until she left Australia, and admits to having boxes of her belongings in his possession. This is undisputed. Therefore, it’s reasonable to suggest RB was involved in coercing MB to sell her house and travel overseas with the intention of disappearing from her life with her money and valuables, as he did with the others.

Moreso, RB’s passport activity coincides with Marion’s - they were both overseas at the same time and both were back in Australia when she made her withdrawals. This indicates RB was involved with Marion for longer than he admits. Additionally, RB opened a bank envelope the day before her large withdrawal/transfer was made. Therefore, it's reasonable to suggest RB was likely responsible for the disappearance of her money and belongings.

This next bit might be a stretch though, I don't know how they'll link her disappearance to him, just guessing it might be something like...

Given that money was the motive for RB's involvement with Marion, and that Marion’s last sign of life was a large withdrawal/transfer on 15 October, money also seems to be the motive for her disappearance. Therefore, RB was likely involved in the disappearance of Marion and her money.

Any other ideas? How to you all think Sally's lawyer, Casselden and Coroner might address RB's involvement in Marion's disappearance?

 

[Baby baby Jane]

She mentions the brochure for The Mead School in Tunbridge Wells in her first letter home within days of arriving in the UK. JMO but the school purchase was already on her mind. So many private schools was also mentioned by her.

In another postcard she did mention she could have worked as a relief teacher in a little village school. As I’ve mentioned before this is a little odd as she arrived in the UK near the end of the School Summer term (they normally break up mid-July onwards). Was she intending being in the UK in September?

Aka hadn’t lived in the UK for over a decade in 1997 so another question is would he risk being recognised in a village he once lived?

JMO but I wonder if he sold the story to Marion without her ever seeing the school she was supposedly buying? Or as the schools would have been shut by late July did they visit a school and he said this one is for sale and amazingly you have just enough money to buy it?

Also puzzling is work visa /immigration. Fairly certain, that an Australian National couldn’t just arrive in the UK & work. A school would have needed to pay for some legal work to hire an Australian even as a supply teacher. She was too old to be on a UK working holiday visa (my knowledge could be wrong but I think there was an upper age limit). She would have known that to settle and work in UK she would have needed to have the legal right to reside & work. Being married to a Belgian national, and becoming a “EU citizen” would, I think, have allowed her to reside and work in the UK in 1997. This could also have been the reason given for her to do the name change prior to departure, to prove she was married to EU person to work in UK. Baffled by the Florabella Natalia … all of her historical legal documents, references, certificates and diplomas would have “Marion”, working with children, these documents would be important.
On arrival in UK, to immigration officers she would have said she was a tourist. If she said she was looking for work, or to settle, she would had problems.
<modsnip - not an approved source>

 

[CuriousKat99]

Joni spoke of finding newspaper stories of him as a child but still no mention of finding the story of his infamous ‘orse accident in the park.

Yes, interesting that there is no record in the newspapers of that ‘orse’ incident. After the way he described it, including the sexual element (which is a common theme in many of his tales), it surely would have made good copy, the equivalent of today’s click bait. ‘IMO It’s just fanciful bs

 

[DerZuschauer]

Yes, interesting that there is no record in the newspapers of that ‘orse’ incident. After the way he described it, including the sexual element (which is a common theme in many of his tales), it surely would have made good copy, the equivalent of today’s click bait. ‘IMO It’s just fanciful bs

What was the sexual element in the 'orse incident again? Thanks for refreshing my memory...

 

[Laughing]

What was the sexual element in the 'orse incident again? Thanks for refreshing my memory...

not the OP, iirc -- testicular injury?

Fair warning -- I get a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions....

ETA: Yeah, whoops, I did it again!

Odd choice, to place an inexperienced rider on a stallion. More bluntly, dangerous choice. Eye-rolling here, used to work horses.

We all know it didn't happen this way!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

What was the sexual element in the 'orse incident again? Thanks for refreshing my memory...

The male horse was supposed to have gotten "excited" at seeing a female horse and reared up throwing Mr AKA off.

 

[DerZuschauer]

The male horse was supposed to have gotten "excited" at seeing a female horse and reared up throwing Mr AKA off.

Right. Thanks.

 

[KinseyFan]

Given RBs history and the passage of time, IMO he’s capable of conning someone into the optometrist visit, the bank visits/withdrawals, etc.
If that ‘someone’ isn’t a family member/friend- could it have been a random contact he coerced, who has now passed away due to age/natural causes?
Which might explain why they haven’t come forward. I’m obviously just guessing and I’m sure I’ve forgotten details.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

The male horse was supposed to have gotten "excited" at seeing a female horse and reared up throwing Mr AKA off.

Doubtful any police or other horse used for public duty would be an intact stallion. It just doesn’t make sense, for exactly the reason he states. Behavior of gelded males is more consistent and predictable. More of his fantasy. Do we have proof of his law enforcement career or is this more fantasy, or another stolen identity? The injury was probably fake or deliberate just for the pension - this kind of fraud is very common.
I WOULD believe he was employed to muck police horse stables (and was not a policeman) and got injured somehow related to his OWN excitement about some testicles …. and somehow got a pension.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Given RBs history and the passage of time, IMO he’s capable of conning someone into the optometrist visit, the bank visits/withdrawals, etc.
If that ‘someone’ isn’t a family member/friend- could it have been a random contact he coerced, who has now passed away due to age/natural causes?
Which might explain why they haven’t come forward. I’m obviously just guessing and I’m sure I’ve forgotten details.

And was that visit to bolster some “ID” related to the bank withdrawals? Like person making the withdrawals didn’t have maybe all the ID documents (just bank from holiday where my documents were stolen) but could say “look, I just used my medical card at the eye Dr … here’s my documents”

 

[TootsieFootsie]

The male horse was supposed to have gotten "excited" at seeing a female horse and reared up throwing Mr AKA off.

I was going to use the word tossing, but changed it to throwing as a UK friend once told me that tossing had a different meaning there when used with the word off

 

[mishy66]

Do we have proof of his law enforcement career or is this more fantasy, or another stolen identity? The injury was probably fake or deliberate just for the pension - this kind of fraud is very common.
I WOULD believe he was employed to muck police horse stables (and was not a policeman) and got injured somehow related to his OWN excitement about some testicles …. and somehow got a pension.

Joni: "can definitely confirm Ric Blum was in the Gendarmerie"


In what capacity who knows.
I also dont believe he was injured in a horse accident. Just a way for him to gain a handout so he never has to work a real job in his life and keep up his thieving - even when he was employed in the mail sorting room, it was only to gain a way to steal coins etc.


I think the testicle thing was late in life in relation to his blue willie - prostate problems

 

[KinseyFan]

Joni: "can definitely confirm Ric Blum was in the Gendarmerie"


In what capacity who knows.
I also dont believe he was injured in a horse accident. Just a way for him to gain a handout so he never has to work a real job in his life and keep up his thieving - even when he was employed in the mail sorting room, it was only to gain a way to steal coins etc.


I think the testicle thing was late in life in relation to his blue willie - prostate problems

I wonder if his testicles still sing? Sorry- couldn’t help myself

 

[Deleted member 249471]

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>

While yes, there are victims claiming RB used them to do things for him, they were small tasks the victims did legally and without knowingly being deceitful, such as bidding at an auction on his behalf. To date, there’s been no evidence of him coercing a victim or friend to act criminally, such as pretending to be someone else to make bank withdrawals or flying on someone else’s passport. Of course, just because we don’t know about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. But there’s been no evidence of it at this inquest or in his past criminal history.

I’m with you though, I personally believe Grafton is important and something foul occurred there, and that it's possible MB may have deceased sooner than 15-18 Oct, but I don't believe it will be in the findings because they didn't discuss it at the inquest and there's not enough evidence.

In my experience, lawyers, police and judges have to take the most obvious and direct route to link the evidence they have to reach the best possible outcome. Even when they suspect more was going on, but sadly don't have the evidence to prove it. Inquests and court cases rarely find the exact truth, but end with whatever story has the most clear and direct evidence. Sometimes, 'close enough is good enough' if it ends in charges. Generally, the more twists, turns and layers you have for a crime (such as other people participating), then the worse it is for the case to find justice. IMOO.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

So yeah, IMOO, I think the strongest evidence they have of placing MB in the same vicinity as RB, at the time she disappeared, is the string of ‘proof of life’ incidents: (1) returning passport, (2) passenger card in MB’s handwriting, (3) car membership cancellation, (4) optometrist visit/medicare card, and (5) a series of bank withdrawals, including $80k from her regular bank - the same bank where she created her mortgage 3 years earlier, and ended her mortgage just 5 months earlier, so they knew her and would be able to accurately ID her.

IMOO, the story being that MB returned to Oz to see her family and prepare for her permanent move overseas with RB, because that’s what he told her. However, after withdrawing her money, MB didn’t make it out of the country because RB was never going to move overseas with her, because it was a scam. MB also never made it to see her family, because RB couldn’t let that happen.

As per his pattern of behaviour, RB usually disappears from his victims lives after taking their money. This time he was unable to disappear because MB knew his phone number and place of residence. RB admits MB called his home several times, and admits MB knew his address due to sending her boxes there and even visiting his Wollingbar home. Therefore, this time, RB was unable to disconnect from his scam victim, so he took her money and made MB disappear instead.

Another motive for RB disappearing MB, was that she had a connection to two former scam victims. If kept alive, MB could report RB to police, who would reach out to the real Remakel in Luxembourg (like podcast did), who would realise his ID was stolen and give an opportunity for MC to tell police about her experience with RB, including revealing his addresses during the years they wrote to each other.

Do I think this is exactly what happened, no. But I’ll be happy if it goes on record that RB is likely involved the disappearance of MB.

 

[CuriousKat99]

And was that visit to bolster some “ID” related to the bank withdrawals? Like person making the withdrawals didn’t have maybe all the ID documents (just bank from holiday where my documents were stolen) but could say “look, I just used my medical card at the eye Dr … here’s my documents”

I doubt the use of the Medicare card would have provided evidence of id but it could provide a trace of life ie to buy time and slow down anyone who might search for Marion. Maybe it was used by someone else, an unwitting pawn or even someone who wasn’t eligible for Medicare such as a new victim from another country. Or maybe it actually was Marion. Once the full Medicare records can be accessed with the death certificate, there should be a clearer picture.

 

[Carovb5]

Doubtful any police or other horse used for public duty would be an intact stallion. It just doesn’t make sense, for exactly the reason he states. Behavior of gelded males is more consistent and predictable. More of his fantasy. Do we have proof of his law enforcement career or is this more fantasy, or another stolen identity? The injury was probably fake or deliberate just for the pension - this kind of fraud is very common.
I WOULD believe he was employed to muck police horse stables (and was not a policeman) and got injured somehow related to his OWN excitement about some testicles …. and somehow got a pension.

In that period of time 18+ men had to join the military service (dutch: (militaire) dienstplicht). Between 6 months & 3 years. There were differences in tasks & you could choose that you didn’t want to use violence or weapons. Then you could do a civilian service. That was with the Civil Protection (disaster relief) or you could work for social and cultural organizations such as Oxfam.

It’s possible that IF his accident really happened, it was during this service. Which would mean he wouldn’t be really screened before joining & they would be less likely to kick out a crazy or lazy or manipulative man in that short of a period.