Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #22

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Agree 100% @Lord Peter Flimsy
But because I don't believe she came back, I believe thanks to a 'fake marriage' her new husband was able to walk in and withdraw the funds when he arrived back into Australia with someone who looked similar to MB.

JMO

I am now in this camp. I was a "Marion Returned-er" all this time, but now-- due to his methods with the other women-- I'm with you @mishy66. But I also believe He may have had the means to withdraw money with no woman by his side given the documents he had and the erroneous driver's license. This is based on how he swindled the other women and the means he had.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wonder if it was redirected to a P.O BOX?!?

Hmm... of course it was... and this needs looking into if anyone hasn't already had that grand idea!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I am now in this camp. I was a "Marion Returned-er" all this time, but now-- due to his methods with the other women-- I'm with you @mishy66. But I also believe He may have had the means to withdraw money with no woman by his side given the documents he had and the erroneous driver's license. This is based on how he swindled the other women and the means he had.

Sadly I agree with you and I think the way he operates, he would have considered Marion to be a high risk hazard even if he took her to the bank with him. No way IMO. The thing is, what on earth did he do to her and where is she laid?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I have flipped flopped over whether Marion returned or not. I can see the arguments either way. I suppose one question that puzzles me (sorry if it’s been fully covered before) is how did the returning Passenger Card under Florabella R come into Australia days after Aka? Perhaps I should PM Mr Aka!!

Was it confirmed which airport(s) Aka’s & ‘Marion’s’ return journeys to Australia flew out from? Was it Amsterdam?

 

[Baby baby Jane]

So weaving together some of RB previous schemes and the high number of people around him who just die prematurely.
1. MB deceased in UK with fake/someone else’s ID. Maybe on a bus, train to somewhere after RB gives her a drink of his potion. And he gets off when she nods off. He is already getting on a plane. She is never “unidentified remains” because she had some ID and ends up an unclaimed. Maybe puts a suicide note in her pocket.
2. MB deceased in Europe with fake/someone else’s ID. Similar to 1. (Surprise trip & maybe she is thinking Orient Express from Paris)
3. They took a ferry from UK to Amsterdam and he chucked her overboard in middle of the night.
Police finding a deceased (from natural causes?), with ID but they cannot find next of kin in Luxembourg or where he decided she was going to be from. They bury her with another name, case closed.
I’m convinced MB not first to be eliminated.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

So weaving together some of RB previous schemes and the high number of people around him who just die prematurely.
1. MB deceased in UK with fake/someone else’s ID. Maybe on a bus, train to somewhere after RB gives her a drink of his potion. And he gets off when she nods off. He is already getting on a plane. She is never “unidentified remains” because she had some ID and ends up an unclaimed. Maybe puts a suicide note in her pocket.
2. MB deceased in Europe with fake/someone else’s ID. Similar to 1. (Surprise trip & maybe she is thinking Orient Express from Paris)
3. They took a ferry from UK to Amsterdam and he chucked her overboard in middle of the night.
Police finding a deceased (from natural causes?), with ID but they cannot find next of kin in Luxembourg or where he decided she was going to be from. They bury her with another name, case closed.
I’m convinced MB not first to be eliminated.

I agree with these sort of theories, sadly. I recall in the past some discussing about RB using unconventional routes that involved the ferry - well maybe it's as simple as that. Wouldn't take much for a big tall strong man like him to tip someone who has been spiked with something into the sea. His only worry would be if anyone spotted a 'man overboard' in the moment (no doubt he would have a cover story planned 'she was a bit crazy in the head').

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Maybe the friendly 'Maz' who Marion met with 'the dentist' was being put in place to become Marion? Got to know her a little bit, debriefed her of a few things, flew back on the passenger card, went to the bank impersonating Marion whom she'd already met. Who could such a person be, if so? And how would RB have a handy criminal contact of this calibre?

 

[Kie22]

I am now in this camp. I was a "Marion Returned-er" all this time, but now-- due to his methods with the other women-- I'm with you @mishy66. But I also believe He may have had the means to withdraw money with no woman by his side given the documents he had and the erroneous driver's license. This is based on how he swindled the other women and the means he had.

So confusing! If she didn't return then who did using her FNMR passport & the passenger card? He was already back and 'The Wife' is apparently accounted for at home with kids at that time (I think that was confirmed on one of The Crime Analyst podcasts).

There's a pattern of abandonment overseas with other women who have come forward, but we don't know about others out there - some who are probably no longer around to tell the tale. I expect he dealt with each of his 'victims' (I hate using that word as it could be any of us) on a case-by-case basis, adapting his MO accordingly. MB might have been one of the more 'difficult' ones to deal with who followed him back with fearful misgivings about the stories she'd been told and started to dig into his real identity. IMO she disappeared very shortly after returning, possibly because she was about to contact family/friends & inform the police. Having said that, it also seems logical to have her 'disappear' overseas where no one would be looking, and use her documents to get the funds, with or without an accomplice.

To decide either way one of the key questions for me is the final 'phone call to SL; wasn't this made after RB returned? If so she was still alive somewhere after he'd left her. Just speculating, but if he'd given her poison that worked after a few days, surely she could/would have sought medical help, possibly survived, or at least been found which would have been risky for RB. She said she was still in England but, if the call was made from Japan then she was probably secretly on her way back. JMO.

 

[mishy66]

I am now in this camp. I was a "Marion Returned-er" all this time, but now-- due to his methods with the other women-- I'm with you @mishy66. But I also believe He may have had the means to withdraw money with no woman by his side given the documents he had and the erroneous driver's license. This is based on how he swindled the other women and the means he had.

Yep, it was him on his own with all their documents and somewhere along the line his partner JMO

 

[mishy66]

I have flipped flopped over whether Marion returned or not. I can see the arguments either way. I suppose one question that puzzles me (sorry if it’s been fully covered before) is how did the returning Passenger Card under Florabella R come into Australia days after Aka? Perhaps I should PM Mr Aka!!

Was it confirmed which airport(s) Aka’s & ‘Marion’s’ return journeys to Australia flew out from? Was it Amsterdam?

yes it was Amsterdam the flight flew out of.

He could have sold the passport to someone else - lets face it, by all accounts he got the women to fill out the cards prior and he held onto them - this was a constant at the inquest - he only needs the passport in MB new name and her writing on some part of the passenger card, along with someone who looked similar - OR NOT - he is a master of disguise and forgery remember. "there is a bench with pens and I fill out both cards" + he never used the same travel agent......

Until there is word otherwise, the woman I believe is MB is the Jane Doe found in Ireland.

The ability to have funds if MB needed them, using the UK branch for her CBA account, could have been money MB knew she could access if she was left OS for some time, waiting for whatever the hell he had told her he needed to do


It was 3+ weeks BEFORE money started going out of her account back in Australia - 3+ weeks - makes NO sense to me for her to wait that long to get money out IF she was only supposed to be here for 8 days....

He had also bought a 2nd hand car just over a week later on him arriving back, with a women "looking just like DdeH" said the car dealer who had known him previously, - then there was about 2 weeks of radio silence - what was he doing.

He had numerous trips in and out of Australia days and weeks apart when you look at his past travels - so much activity during the year 1995, 1996 going back and forth for a week and other times longer, it was mentioned.

He had more than enough time to head back OS to get MB sorted out or threatened enough to see her never contact her family again - did he threaten to kill her children, go to the police about some BS story of her molesting kids at TSS, who knows.

1995 - 1996 = many more women


I think we ONLY know the tip of the iceberg - even what was able to be shown at the inquest, is just the tip of what he has done.
JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

yes it was Amsterdam

He could have sold the passport to someone else - lets face it, by all accounts he got the women to fill out the cards prior and he held onto them - this was a constant at the inquest - he only needs the passport in MB new name and her writing on some of the passenger card, along with someone who looked similar - OR NOT - he is a master of disguise and forgery remember.

Until there is word otherwise, the woman I believe is MB is the Jane Doe found in Ireland.

How can this be established?

Selling a passport would be easy, paying someone to take the trip outbound less easy, having a female accomplice more likely but less control.

If him and M took the ferry to Holland, my vote is he sedated her and tipped her off it.

 

[mishy66]

So weaving together some of RB previous schemes and the high number of people around him who just die prematurely.
1. MB deceased in UK with fake/someone else’s ID. Maybe on a bus, train to somewhere after RB gives her a drink of his potion. And he gets off when she nods off. He is already getting on a plane. She is never “unidentified remains” because she had some ID and ends up an unclaimed. Maybe puts a suicide note in her pocket.
2. MB deceased in Europe with fake/someone else’s ID. Similar to 1. (Surprise trip & maybe she is thinking Orient Express from Paris)
3. They took a ferry from UK to Amsterdam and he chucked her overboard in middle of the night.
Police finding a deceased (from natural causes?), with ID but they cannot find next of kin in Luxembourg or where he decided she was going to be from. They bury her with another name, case closed.
I’m convinced MB not first to be eliminated.

I am more aligned with he left her with NO formal ID at all and threatened her / scared her enough to have her stay in the UK, knowing whatever it was that he threatened her with would be enough for her to stay quiet and remain there.
Then at some time later he killed her - and she had never been identified - a Jane Doe

JMO

 

[mishy66]

How can this be established?

Selling a passport would be easy, paying someone to take the trip outbound less easy, having a female accomplice more likely but less control.

If him and M took the ferry to Holland, my vote is he sedated her and tipped her off it.

I dont agree that he got rid of her before he flew back. I think it was a long time after.

He is a criminal. On selling a passport to a person desperate to leave another country, even if he didnt know them and they werent part of his story would be so so easy for him. They get a flight to a new country and new ID and never seen again. If this is the case they will never come forward if they have heard about this case.

He was making fake passports for years and someone he knew HAD TO HAVE signed these new ID's. He is a master at fraud. He knows all the tricks of the trade.

 

[mishy66]

I wonder if it was redirected to a P.O BOX?!?

The bank statements were sent to MB forwarding address which was the Barlcays Bank in the UK - Joni MBFB page

 

[Martinie]

The 3+ weeks he could have been slowly poisoning her with his knowledge of "undetectable poisons" and finding a spot to dump her maybe? He could have started the process if she was resistant to his plans and then she went to the optometrist if she was having vision issues and then after that she passed and he hid her somewhere, then started the withdrawals? I don't know, but it is doing my head in trying to think of what could have happened to her and I feel so bad for Sally searching on her own with no family tp help or support her. I hope the coroner has more info than we do.

 

[mishy66]

then she went to the optometrist if she was having vision issues

but it has already been established that the trip to the optometrist August 13 , was only for an initial consultation. This is something you get when you first go to an optometrist, it wasn't for glasses or a complex problem it was stated.

If she didnt want anyone knowing she was back in Australia why use a card to pay? Why not use cash - she had plenty in the bank at this time

Trying to prove she was back in Aust if family came looking perhaps ......
and that "she didnt want any contact with them" as per the NSW policeman

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

His mention of the Harwich (Essex) to Hook of Holland NIGHT ferry at the inquest in respect of JO really did prick my ears up. This ferry crosses the North Sea. I wonder if any unidentified women have been washed up on the Essex/Suffolk/Norfolk coast around the late 1990s?

Marion kept mentioning Amsterdam over and over again in correspondence. Would she be persuaded to travel back to Australia without visiting Amsterdam first. It seems unlikely to me.

Another aspect though is that Marion did appear to be travelling West in the UK from her postcards. Her last one I believe is the Surrey/Hampshire one. They were edging closer to Southampton and it’s airport and ferry/ship terminal. As I’ve mentioned before Southampton Airport does quick/cheap flights to Amsterdam.

 

[Laughing]

His mention of the Harwich (Essex) to Hook of Holland NIGHT ferry at the inquest in respect of JO really did prick my ears up. This ferry crosses the North Sea. I wonder if any unidentified women have been washed up on the Essex/Suffolk/Norfolk coast around the late 1990s?

rsbm bbm

Somewhat OT -- I rode this ferry in 1976.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

In all the time I've been following this case, I feel for the first time ever convinced of one theory = that he threw poor Marion off the night ferry.

Has anyone ever seen the movie 'The Talented Mr Ripley', an excellent piece of work in my opinion. Well that's exactly what the confidence trickster / fraudster perpetrator does. Now that film was made from a book written by Patricia Highsmith in the 1950s. I wonder if it's one of the books that RB would have read and also in his own words 'affected my mind'.

Why was RB pleading for mercy and consideration at the Inquest because all these books he'd read have affected his mind? Sounds like a plea for some understanding, mercy, and mitigation IMO but one can only plead for that if guilty of something in the first place.

JMO MOO

 

[Ooohm]

I’ve been listening to Dr. Laura Richards and her approach is to rake through a perp’s past behaviour. So in the case of AKA he does favour using women for small but critical tasks. He also frequently abandons his “marks.” His insistence that Marion ”didn’t want anything to do with her family” IMO seems like his normal belief system coming through—he believes abandonment is normal and acceptable behaviour. Look what he does to DDH and his children: constantly leaving and lying to them. Coming back with gifts or money, tying them to him. His little fiefdom. I mean it makes my blood boil to think of this vile lie he is perpetuating about Marion abandoning her own family. So cruel. I’m really trying to understand why his Ballina family continues to blithely stand by and allow this travesty to continue.