Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #23

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

See Joni has put a call out on the fb page? Asking for everyone’s theories on why Marion changed her name…

Some question over whether she actually knew her name had been changed. When her new passport application (under Florabella) was witnessed by the dentist in Brisbane in May 1997 he couldn’t categorically confirm he actually saw her. He could only confirm she had been a patient in the last 3 years. He just signed off numerous requests like these. Could anyone have turned up and handed it in and collected it?

 

[KinseyFan]

Some question over whether she actually knew her name had been changed. When her new passport application (under Florabella) was witnessed by the dentist in Brisbane in May 1997 he couldn’t categorically confirm he actually saw her. He could only confirm she had been a patient in the last 3 years. He just signed off numerous requests like these. Could anyone have turned up and handed it in and collected it?

Agree, when other known factors are taken into account too. Like filling out others paperwork at airports, keeping others important documents for safe keeping, going to extraordinary lengths for deception. Could ‘smoke and mirrors’ routines, along with coercive control techniques, have meant Marion didn’t know of name change?

 

[Laidback]

Agree, when other known factors are taken into account too. Like filling out others paperwork at airports, keeping others important documents for safe keeping, going to extraordinary lengths for deception. Could ‘smoke and mirrors’ routines, along with coercive control techniques, have meant Marion didn’t know of name change?

She got on a plane with that passport.

 

[CuriousKat99]

She got on a plane with that passport.

Yes, if she used the FNMR passport to travel out of Australia, it would have been hard for her not to notice the name when she went through immigration. Based on what we know, she was on her own too, as he avoided travelling with his victims. If he had been on the same flight, he may have been able to pull it off and have her oblivious to the new name.

IMO much more likely that he convinced her that they were getting married, for romantic reasons and probably also so she could work in the UK. This explains the change in family name, but still begs the question of why her given names were changed.

It has been discussed previously on WS that it may have suited his nefarious business plans to have her initials closely matching his FNR identity. Perhaps he convinced her that it would be even more romantic for them both to have matching initials? (Two becoming almost one)

Unless she travelled out of Australia on a completely different identity? But IMO that’s highly unlikely.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

She got on a plane with that passport.

This is very true and does on the face of it prove she did herself change her name. It was that some had questioned this on FB.

Unlikely I know but another theory is that he presented her with a fait accompli as some ‘romantic’ gesture. Better than her saying no or giving the game away before she left. It was barely a month before her flight out that the dentist witnessed her passport.

 

[KinseyFan]

She got on a plane with that passport.

Good point. I forgot they didn’t fly together.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I wonder if somehow before the flight, he drugged her, not enough to affect her walking but just enough that she wouldn't notice some things, like details on the passport.

I'm trying to remember if Leslie said anything about how Marion was the last time she saw her.

I don't believe Marion had any intention of never seeing her family again.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'm trying to remember if Leslie said anything about how Marion was the last time she saw her.

Sorry that should be Lesley. Too late to change it now.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wonder if somehow before the flight, he drugged her, not enough to affect her walking but just enough that she wouldn't notice some things, like details on the passport.

I'm trying to remember if Leslie said anything about how Marion was the last time she saw her.

I don't believe Marion had any intention of never seeing her family again.

As a teacher, she'd be far too detail oriented to fail to notice such things IMO.

Going one further, one wonders if she even travelled on that passport at all or if it was someone else. Mr AKA could have given Marion yet a different passport again. I mean that's where it becomes an unwieldy group effort involving multiple people but one never knows.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I suppose torture is out of the quesion

 

[CuriousKat99]

Unlikely I know but another theory is that he presented her with a fait accompli as some ‘romantic’ gesture. Better than her saying no or giving the game away before she left. It was barely a month before her flight out that the dentist witnessed her passport.

This theory is very plausible IMO. Typical coercive behaviour, constantly pushing the boundaries and making decisions for the victim without consultation, leaving her so shocked and embarrassed that she was incapable of pushing back (freeze/fawn response). This could explain Marion’s odd behaviour in the months prior to her departure.

 

[CuriousKat99]

I suppose torture is out of the quesion

Maybe not physical torture, but certainly mental torture/emotional abuse.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Maybe not physical torture, but certainly mental torture/emotional abuse.

No I didn't mean Marion or any of his other victims.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

A new series on Channel 4 in the UK called The Body Detectives following the work done by UK Charity Locate International whose work is to find missing people and trying to name unidentified bodies.

 

[Laidback]

No I didn't mean Marion or any of his other victims.

Ha ha, that was my thought exactly too!

 

[Procrastinator]

This company has been known for some time but I don’t know how things work in Belgium. Who can gain full access to the company records, and why have we heard so little about it about it since the Inquest? So many answers may lay within.

Still reading ‘The Lady Vanishes’ book.

Up to page 325 (fourth paragraph). It’s about IK’s daughter (ER) meeting up with AKA ….. “He had an idea for me that might help and it involved drawing up a contract regarding life insurance policies that would be effective on people in another country. And that I didn’t need to worry about what was going to happen to the people. That was going to be something that he was going to take care of.”

What comes to mind:

(1) IK suspicious death (July 1977)

(2) IK’s mother’s death (September 1977)

(3) Atilla’s death (ER’s uncle) soon after his mother’s death (in his twenties).

(4) Fredy David (dies in 1989, aged 48)

(5) AKA and his many filing cabinets, not only filled with all his aliases, but maybe life insurance policies taken out on unsuspecting victims!!

(6) AKA denying any knowledge of Renov Pubs …. maybe because insurance payments had been made to that company.

Was it easy back then to take out life insurance policies on unsuspecting people and collect the payouts? I don’t know how it would have been implemented, but if anyone has insight, am keen to know if this could be another type of scam committed by AKA.

IMOO

 

[ruby925]

I wonder if somehow before the flight, he drugged her, not enough to affect her walking but just enough that she wouldn't notice some things, like details on the passport.

I'm trying to remember if Leslie said anything about how Marion was the last time she saw her.

I don't believe Marion had any intention of never seeing her family again.

If Marion bought her own airline ticket, that would have to match the name in her passport, this would have been checked at the departure airport.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

If Marion bought her own airline ticket, that would have to match the name in her passport, this would have been checked at the departure airport.

No I was thinking that maybe Marion didn't notice that her passport had changed due to her being drugged.

I do know that the passport would be checked

 

[hahahils]

Very random question, and apologies if it has already been covered, but is anyone aware if Dd’H speaks, or understands, any other languages than English?

 

[Procrastinator]

Still reading ‘The Lady Vanishes’ book.

Up to page 325 (fourth paragraph). It’s about IK’s daughter (ER) meeting up with AKA ….. “He had an idea for me that might help and it involved drawing up a contract regarding life insurance policies that would be effective on people in another country. And that I didn’t need to worry about what was going to happen to the people. That was going to be something that he was going to take care of.”

What comes to mind:

(1) IK suspicious death (July 1977)

(2) IK’s mother’s death (September 1977)

(3) Atilla’s death (ER’s uncle) soon after his mother’s death (in his twenties).

(4) Fredy David (dies in 1989, aged 48)

(5) AKA and his many filing cabinets, not only filled with all his aliases, but maybe life insurance policies taken out on unsuspecting victims!!

(6) AKA denying any knowledge of Renov Pubs …. maybe because insurance payments had been made to that company.

Was it easy back then to take out life insurance policies on unsuspecting people and collect the payouts? I don’t know how it would have been implemented, but if anyone has insight, am keen to know if this could be another type of scam committed by AKA.

IMOO

Found online this pdf document by The Coalition Against Insurance Fraud, Inc., 2017 called Fraud in life and disability insurance. Although it’s from the United States, it outlines many different insurance fraud scenarios.

https://insurancefraud.org/wp-content/uploads/2017-Coalition_life_disability_report.pdf

Some interesting extracts …
Page 7
“Murder for life insurance. Unlike how this crime is portrayed in the movies, it is perhaps the most horrific aspect of insurance fraud. While victims typically are spouses and lovers, the greed for life insurance money increasingly has been a motive in the murders of children and business partners.
This type of fraud has a long history going back to previous centuries when there was little, if any, regulation of who could take out policies on whom.
Today, the typical cases that come to light mostly involve spouses murdering spouses. In a few notorious cases, men have intentionally married well-off women to kill them for large payouts. And in some cases, perpetrators have killed more than once. Death in such cases comes in a variety of ways — shooting, drowning, being pushed off a cliff, electrocution, etc.
Unless the perpetrator gets convicted or there’s other overwhelming evidence, insurers usually pay these claims.”

Page 8
“Fraudulent loans against life policies. This scam originated with dishonest insurance agents who had access to essential client information required to take out a loan against the policy. The agents would submit a change of address for policies they control and then request a loan.
This scam also is perpetrated by people who get access to stolen personal identity information and then phish insurers until they find an identity that has a life policy tied to the ID. They then will either take out a loan against the policy or surrender it for cash value.”

Page 19
“Q. What are obstacles your agency faces in either accepting or investigating life and disability cases?
• Life cases involving claimants or policyholders residing or dying off-shore”

I may be way off base going down this track but then again, maybe not!

IMOO