Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #23

[mishy66]

First time poster here. In 1997, was it possible for someone to enter Australia with a forged passport?

He forged passports all his life and coming in and out of Australia. That's his jam.

1990s The personal data pages initially included a photograph and a cut out piece of paper with the holder's signature under a sheet of adhesive laminate. This was after there was an investigation by Government as to how criminals like Blum abused the system.
Criminals like him still found ways. He was a master at it.

 

[mishy66]

The person could have presented it to the bank with other proof of name change or other forged supporting documentation, enabling them to make the withdrawals.

Mr Bloooooooom you mean. Correct.

 

[Liselle]

Do we have a definitive chronological list of ALL known dates that AKA travelled from and returned to Australia? I have done a cursory search but have not found complete data.

 

[CuriousKat99]

He forged passports all his life and coming in and out of Australia. That's his jam.

1990s The personal data pages initially included a photograph and a cut out piece of paper with the holder's signature under a sheet of adhesive laminate. This was after there was an investigation by Government as to how criminals like Blum abused the system.
Criminals like him still found ways. He was a master at it.

And no facial recognition technology in those days, just a random human being’s eyes doing a cursory match to a small headshot photo which could be up to 10 years old.

 

[DerZuschauer]

2. SOCCER - There is a connection to soccer with FR being a well known European player . JW being a well known Aust player.

Double post, sorry

 

[DerZuschauer]

2. SOCCER - There is a connection to soccer with FR being a well known European player . JW being a well known Aust player.

Sorry, but no.

There is a similarity regarding soccer in that the story involves two men who played international soccer during the same time period.

But there is no assured or proven connection. FR was a soccer player in Luxembourg in the 1960s, and yes, he has three caps with the Luxembourg NT. These were test matches and friendlies.

• 29 Jan 1967, Barcelona: Spain vs. Luxembourg, 5:0
• 20 Nov 1968, Copenhagen: Denmark vs. Luxembourg, 5:1
• 8 Dec 1968, Luxembourg City: Lux vs. Belgium, 0:1

From what I read about Johnny Warren, the two careers were in no way comparable, not even close. Luxembourg soccer was and for the most part still is amateur sports (today more towards semi-pro, but far from what it is in, say, France, Belgium, England).

FR was an aspiring and ambitious soccer player, debuting for the NT at the age of 19 and getting at least one good review for his defensive work against Belgium. He was about to sign a pro contract in Belgium, but that fell through due to injuries, so he buried the idea of a pro career.
JW on the other hand, according to Wikipedia: Captain of Australian NT. 42 caps, including the World Cup tournament in Munich in 1974. International contract in Britain, including media coverage. Coach. Commentator. Receives FIFA Centennial Order of Merit. MBE. Street named after him. State Funeral.

FR was not what you can call “a well known European soccer player”. He might have been relatively known in Luxembourg, but that's because the country is so tiny and people know about each other here. He surely wasn't known outside Luxembourg, and that's for the same reason: Nobody abroad knows much about Luxembourg. There definitely was no buzz around the Lux NT back in those days, not nationally, but much less internationally. (There is some attention for them today, after their narrow miss to qualify for the Euros.)
For scale: The average turnout for games in the first national soccer league in Lux for the season 2023/24 was 421. You read that right.

There is no connection involving soccer. That is a synchronicity, if you will. The FR connection, IMOO, is purely based on the events in Lux in the 1980s involving MC. Or do we really think that AKA had MB in the crosshairs back in 1980, leading him to pick out FR as a target to steal his identity in order to set up the soccer connection 17 years later? We still don't know why he used the FNR alias out of all he had in stock. And why it had to be Lux for MB. But JW had nothing to do with it.

However, I totally see that it is tempting, and it sparked my interest, too, in the very beginning: two international soccer players as the missing link. What a story. And it might even have been a big part of 7s motivation to fund a trip to Luxembourg in 2019. But there's correlation and there's causality.

 

[mishy66]

Sorry, but no.

There is a similarity regarding soccer in that the story involves two men who played international soccer during the same time period.

But there is no assured or proven connection. FR was a soccer player in Luxembourg in the 1960s, and yes, he has three caps with the Luxembourg NT. These were test matches and friendlies.

• 29 Jan 1967, Barcelona: Spain vs. Luxembourg, 5:0
• 20 Nov 1968, Copenhagen: Denmark vs. Luxembourg, 5:1
• 8 Dec 1968, Luxembourg City: Lux vs. Belgium, 0:1

From what I read about Johnny Warren, the two careers were in no way comparable, not even close. Luxembourg soccer was and for the most part still is amateur sports (today more towards semi-pro, but far from what it is in, say, France, Belgium, England).

FR was an aspiring and ambitious soccer player, debuting for the NT at the age of 19 and getting at least one good review for his defensive work against Belgium. He was about to sign a pro contract in Belgium, but that fell through due to injuries, so he buried the idea of a pro career.
JW on the other hand, according to Wikipedia: Captain of Australian NT. 42 caps, including the World Cup tournament in Munich in 1974. International contract in Britain, including media coverage. Coach. Commentator. Receives FIFA Centennial Order of Merit. MBE. Street named after him. State Funeral.

FR was not what you can call “a well known European soccer player”. He might have been relatively known in Luxembourg, but that's because the country is so tiny and people know about each other here. He surely wasn't known outside Luxembourg, and that's for the same reason: Nobody abroad knows much about Luxembourg. There definitely was no buzz around the Lux NT back in those days, not nationally, but much less internationally. (There is some attention for them today, after their narrow miss to qualify for the Euros.)
For scale: The average turnout for games in the first national soccer league in Lux for the season 2023/24 was 421. You read that right.

There is no connection involving soccer. That is a synchronicity, if you will. The FR connection, IMOO, is purely based on the events in Lux in the 1980s involving MC. Or do we really think that AKA had MB in the crosshairs back in 1980, leading him to pick out FR as a target to steal his identity in order to set up the soccer connection 17 years later? We still don't know why he used the FNR alias out of all he had in stock. And why it had to be Lux for MB. But JW had nothing to do with it.

However, I totally see that it is tempting, and it sparked my interest, too, in the very beginning: two international soccer players as the missing link. What a story. And it might even have been a big part of 7s motivation to fund a trip to Luxembourg in 2019. But there's correlation and there's causality.

Thanks for the background on FR and his football @DerZuschauer. It is always great to get more information on those times in Lux and FR background.

What else can you tell us about MC.


I probs didn't make myself very clear when I was point forming some similarities I have found in regard to his victims though.

I have always believed that MC is the connection to him and his FR alias of course and have no idea why he used that ID for Marion. Any clues in that department??


What I was saying though, in very simple form, was there was a connection to soccer and AH - he even raved on about it at the inquest and there is also that connection to him and FR in regard to him being a soccer player too and having an affair with his wife.


JW was most definitely a legend here in the soccer scene!
( I was unaware FR wasn't a well known footballer though - he talked it up when TLV was there, as did MC)

Part of my post:
"He used the initials of a man that was a very well known soccer player in Luxembourg and connected to his lover , and had Marion use the same initials to him and she was married to a very well known soccer player in Australia"

"2. SOCCER - There is a connection to soccer with FR being a well known European player . JW being a well known Aust player. He has an affair with FR wife and caught MB in his net. He uses the initials FNMR for MB for a reason."

Marion & JW = soccer and FR & MC = soccer. Common element = AH.
He would have had a lot to talk about when he was with Marion one would imagine.

I mention this also because I believe AH does have another connection to football / soccer in regard to St George Budapest and the UK.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Sorry, but no.

There is a similarity regarding soccer in that the story involves two men who played international soccer during the same time period.

But there is no assured or proven connection. FR was a soccer player in Luxembourg in the 1960s, and yes, he has three caps with the Luxembourg NT. These were test matches and friendlies.

• 29 Jan 1967, Barcelona: Spain vs. Luxembourg, 5:0
• 20 Nov 1968, Copenhagen: Denmark vs. Luxembourg, 5:1
• 8 Dec 1968, Luxembourg City: Lux vs. Belgium, 0:1

From what I read about Johnny Warren, the two careers were in no way comparable, not even close. Luxembourg soccer was and for the most part still is amateur sports (today more towards semi-pro, but far from what it is in, say, France, Belgium, England).

FR was an aspiring and ambitious soccer player, debuting for the NT at the age of 19 and getting at least one good review for his defensive work against Belgium. He was about to sign a pro contract in Belgium, but that fell through due to injuries, so he buried the idea of a pro career.
JW on the other hand, according to Wikipedia: Captain of Australian NT. 42 caps, including the World Cup tournament in Munich in 1974. International contract in Britain, including media coverage. Coach. Commentator. Receives FIFA Centennial Order of Merit. MBE. Street named after him. State Funeral.

FR was not what you can call “a well known European soccer player”. He might have been relatively known in Luxembourg, but that's because the country is so tiny and people know about each other here. He surely wasn't known outside Luxembourg, and that's for the same reason: Nobody abroad knows much about Luxembourg. There definitely was no buzz around the Lux NT back in those days, not nationally, but much less internationally. (There is some attention for them today, after their narrow miss to qualify for the Euros.)
For scale: The average turnout for games in the first national soccer league in Lux for the season 2023/24 was 421. You read that right.

There is no connection involving soccer. That is a synchronicity, if you will. The FR connection, IMOO, is purely based on the events in Lux in the 1980s involving MC. Or do we really think that AKA had MB in the crosshairs back in 1980, leading him to pick out FR as a target to steal his identity in order to set up the soccer connection 17 years later? We still don't know why he used the FNR alias out of all he had in stock. And why it had to be Lux for MB. But JW had nothing to do with it.

However, I totally see that it is tempting, and it sparked my interest, too, in the very beginning: two international soccer players as the missing link. What a story. And it might even have been a big part of 7s motivation to fund a trip to Luxembourg in 2019. But there's correlation and there's causality.

The guy who I believe encouraged JW & his wife Marion to come to the UK in 1968/69 was a decent professional footballer in England who was also in and out of Australia during the same period to play for St George’s Budapest (the reasons why appear slightly odd). He ended up living in Knokke-Heist in Belgium. I wonder if Aka happened to bump into this guy?

 

[DerZuschauer]

I get what you're saying. But this is where I think you're maybe not quite correct:

FR & MC = soccer.

FR & MC are not soccer. When they got married, his career was effectively over. What MC said about him in regard to soccer (when asked on the phone by Bryan) was, IIRC, “Yes, he was a good soccer player”. Could have referred to anything from some after work team to pro sports.

But rather:
FR & MC = a bookshop in Esch/Alzette, well publicized, also a go-to-place to buy event tickets.
FR & MC = teachers. Him at least for some time in the 1970s, her for her whole career.
FR & MC = separated relatively early on (this is important: when AKA had an affair with MC, she was no longer with FR, but according to her they were still friendly).
FR & MC = officially divorced only a couple years later. (It is not clear how long she was still part of the bookshop.) This is not entirely unusual in Lux.

 

[DerZuschauer]

The guy who I believe encouraged JW & his wife Marion to come to the UK in 1968/69 was a decent professional footballer in England who was also in and out of Australia during the same period to play for St George’s Budapest (the reasons why appear slightly odd). He ended up living in Knokke-Heist in Belgium. I wonder if Aka happened to bump into this guy?

Okay, that changes a few perspectives at once... But I think it's still a long way to go from there (or from 1980's Lux) to 1997.

 

[mishy66]

And no facial recognition technology in those days, just a random human being’s eyes doing a cursory match to a small headshot photo which could be up to 10 years old.

Yep!

Gathers all those ID documents from his victims, both women and men, potentially holds onto their Birth Certs too if needed for new passports, eg Fredy David

All those documents for new aliases must have made his eyes water! Passports applied for and received in no time and no trail between any of them until the Land of Golden Opportunity for criminals Dept of Foreign Affairs takes a look and decides, "nothing to see here". Welcome WW, FD, FdeH, RW, RR, WDC, RB !

Spends years sorting his home filing cabinet into names and dates for future scams.
eg Steals/ (is given, more like it IMO), FR License and waits a few yrs before using it to get his QLD license.
eg Waits more yrs to use the initials for Marion and her brand spanking new passport.

What other women's ID did he have sorted in his filing cabinet waiting for their day in the sun?, that we don't know about.? I can not imagine Marion was his first. He was in the game since the 60's so he had 30 yrs of practice before he leaped onto Marion.

 

[mishy66]

I get what you're saying. But this is where I think you're maybe not quite correct:

FR & MC are not soccer. When they got married, his career was effectively over. What MC said about him in regard to soccer (when asked on the phone by Bryan) was, IIRC, “Yes, he was a good soccer player”. Could have referred to anything from some after work team to pro sports.

But rather:
FR & MC = a bookshop in Esch/Alzette, well publicized, also a go-to-place to buy event tickets.
FR & MC = teachers. Him at least for some time in the 1970s, her for her whole career.
FR & MC = separated relatively early on (this is important: when AKA had an affair with MC, she was no longer with FR, but according to her they were still friendly).
FR & MC = officially divorced only a couple years later. (It is not clear how long she was still part of the bookshop.) This is not entirely unusual in Lux.

Yep we know all that about MC and FR - what else have you got

I think it is lost in translation in regard to what I am meaning with the soccer connection.

And what does it matter if they were actually married / separated - those things don't concern AH when it comes to women. He was /is married to women and still had affairs and married others.

But good to know at least one journo is sticking to facts in this case

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I get what you're saying. But this is where I think you're maybe not quite correct:

FR & MC are not soccer. When they got married, his career was effectively over. What MC said about him in regard to soccer (when asked on the phone by Bryan) was, IIRC, “Yes, he was a good soccer player”. Could have referred to anything from some after work team to pro sports.

But rather:
FR & MC = a bookshop in Esch/Alzette, well publicized, also a go-to-place to buy event tickets.
FR & MC = teachers. Him at least for some time in the 1970s, her for her whole career.
FR & MC = separated relatively early on (this is important: when AKA had an affair with MC, she was no longer with FR, but according to her they were still friendly).
FR & MC = officially divorced only a couple years later. (It is not clear how long she was still part of the bookshop.) This is not entirely unusual in Lux.

Thank you for this DerZuschauer. It’s really helpful. What did you make of MCs story about asking her former husband FR to go and see Aka to see what he made of him and at that point FR having his ID card stolen? I think that was the gist of it.

Perhaps culturally this is normal but to me this seems such an odd thing to do. And what did FR do about it, if anything?

When C7 came knocking in Luxembourg the real FR must have known Aka had stolen his identity from years back. His ex-wife knew her former lover was living in Australia and he’d stolen FRs ID card from years back. These are 2 former teachers so not silly and they must have put 2 and 2 together almost immediately but never let onto Sally or the TLV team.

MCs refusal to attend the Inquest in person when other more elderly victims where prepared to do so was also a little disappointing. Is it again a cultural thing?

 

[mishy66]

The guy who I believe encouraged JW & his wife Marion to come to the UK in 1968/69 was a decent professional footballer in England who was also in and out of Australia during the same period to play for St George’s Budapest (the reasons why appear slightly odd). He ended up living in Knokke-Heist in Belgium. I wonder if Aka happened to bump into this guy?

Yes Lord Peter much more to the soccer era for sure as you know. You have done such great research into this.
You came from the soccer end and I was at the alias end and low and behold, a collision in the middle!
So many things to this case.

 

[mishy66]

Thank you for this DerZuschauer. It’s really helpful. What did you make of MCs story about asking her former husband FR to go and see Aka to see what he made of him and at that point FR having his ID card stolen? I think that was the gist of it.

Perhaps culturally this is normal but to me this seems such an odd thing to do. And what did FR do about it, if anything?

When C7 came knocking in Luxembourg the real FR must have known Aka had stolen his identity from years back. His ex-wife knew her former lover was living in Australia and he’d stolen FRs ID card from years back. These are 2 former teachers so not silly and they must have put 2 and 2 together almost immediately but never let onto Sally or the TLV team.

MCs refusal to attend the Inquest in person when other more elderly victims where prepared to do so was also a little disappointing. Is it again a cultural thing?

yes especially when FR said he had never heard of AH

yes and as you say, two bright teachers and both, ( ok giving him the benefit of the doubt for a moment) one of them, KNOWING AH lived in Australia when Australian journos came knocking and calling asking Q's

MC convincing herself she was an innocent party to it all.

 

[DerZuschauer]

But good to know at least one journo is sticking to facts in this case

Well, thanks, I guess.

And what does it matter if they were actually married / separated - those things don't concern AH when it comes to women. He was /is married to women and still had affairs and married others.

It does. In that she didn't “have an affair”. She was a free, single woman.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Yes Lord Peter much more to the soccer era for sure as you know. You have done such great research into this.
You came from the soccer end and I was at the alias end and low and behold, a collision in the middle!
So many things to this case.

I also believe there is a gambling angle to this case too. There have been a few hints he was a gambler (surely every conman is a gambler at heart) and I can’t see him not enjoying a bit of ‘fun’ with some of his ill gotten gains. It’s also a way of moving/disposing of cash.

Whether his gambling took place whilst in Europe (South of France & Belgium in the casinos/racetracks) or somewhere in Australia is the question.

 

[mishy66]

Well, thanks, I guess.


It does. In that she didn't “have an affair”. She was a free, single woman.

In Aust when the man is still married and the women is separated, or the woman is still married and the man is separated, it is called "an affair". AH is married and he had an affair - MC KNEW he was married and she had an affair.

Splitting hairs.

Cant convince me she is an innocent party in this case. Sorry.

 

[DerZuschauer]

Cant convince me she is an innocent party in this case. Sorry.

Absolutely not what I was / am trying to do.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Absolutely not what I was / am trying to do.

MCs story about overhearing Aka had a wife from a payphone he was using. This story again makes you question some of her statements. It’s such a shame she was never interviewed by C7 in her native tongue as some of it might have made a little more sense.