Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #6 *charges*

[Barbie05]

Ivan Milat.

I would think it would be Claremont serial killer whose crimes were after Milat.

 

[BrumbyJack]

All good Judi, that’s a Toyota landcruiser in that clip. I bet someone somewhere does have him on dashcam though. Hope your husband is okay.

Apologies if this is now redundant but I'll post it anyway and then go back to Thread 4 and try and catch up.

Mr Lynn's neighbour noticed the car had been re-painted. While he said he couldn't tell "off-hand" exactly when it changed, he believes it could be "well over 12 months ago". That means it could have been 2018, not 2019.

Video published on 16 April, 2018

7 minute video of the drive from Wonnangatta to Dargo. The guy has a change of plan at 4:40 and instead of taking the Cynthea Range Track to Dargo, he decides to go via the Eaglevale Track. Interestingly, at 5:00 he sees a blue 4WD. Blue 4WDs may be extremely popular for all I know, but I nearly fell off my chair when I saw it.

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Fresh insights into man arrested over missing Victoria campers

 

[Kemug]

Possibly Milat.

You may wish to Google, "are there still Serial Killers?" or similar key words.

I did so a few weeks ago and came across scholarly articles on the relationship between the increase in mass shootings and decline in Serial Killers.

Very interesting.
CCTV and data collection are two of the reasons cited for Serial killings dying off (excuse the pun) as it simply isn't as easy to get away with it any more.

I've yet to thoroughly delve into the subject @Kemug but if you do, let us know something interesting

Ah yes, how could I forget Ivan Milat? Although he wasn't active recently. I'll do some googling if I get time. ETA Thanks also to Emirates & Barbie - yes, the Claremont SK as well - why can I never remember his name?

 

[DRT]

Apologies if this is now redundant but I'll post it anyway and then go back to Thread 4 and try and catch up.

Mr Lynn's neighbour noticed the car had been re-painted. While he said he couldn't tell "off-hand" exactly when it changed, he believes it could be "well over 12 months ago". That means it could have been 2018, not 2019.

Video published on 16 April, 2018

7 minute video of the drive from Wonnangatta to Dargo. The guy has a change of plan at 4:40 and instead of taking the Cynthea Range Track to Dargo, he decides to go via the Eaglevale Track. Interestingly, at 5:00 he sees a blue 4WD. Blue 4WDs may be extremely popular for all I know, but I nearly fell off my chair when I saw it.

View attachment 325076 View attachment 325077 View attachment 325078

Fresh insights into man arrested over missing Victoria campers

The google streetview shows it was white in September 2016, Blue in July 2019 and Beige in June 2021. It was registered as White according to a channel 9 report.

I hope your husband is doing better now.

 

[Kemug]

Carol would probably have been wearing earrings, IMO.

 

[Kemug]

I find that Wonnangatta and Diamond Creek are about 100 miles apart, but the road journey is about 5 hours. I'm thinking of missing person John Forster.

 

[inkpink]

I find that Wonnangatta and Diamond Creek are about 100 miles apart, but the road journey is about 5 hours. I'm thinking of missing person John Forster.

I believe they found his car at Sugarloaf Reservoir in Christmas Hills, which is not far from Diamond Creek.

 

[RickshawFan]

Actually I reckon he scouted around at the site for those charred logs, you can see in the background in those pics that there’s quite a few blackened trees around, so he wouldn’t have had to look too far to find them.

From those photos, I have a hard time determining whether those other trees just have dark bark or whether they're burned.

 

[Arboreal]

The Age newspaper has a long article about the accused and the investigation:
Loner, pilot, barbecue-lover - mystery swirls around accused killer
Russell Hill, Carol Clay disappearance: Mystery swirls around accused killer Greg Lynn

 

[Arboreal]

I would think it would be Claremont serial killer whose crimes were after Milat.

Here is a list of "serial killers" in Australia, unironically published in, of all places, the women's magazine, New Idea (which, given its title and the subject matter is a somewhat unfortunate association):
The worst Australian serial killers who went on shocking killing sprees
Australian Serial Killers: 10 Worst of All Time

And Rolling Stone has also published an artilce that bundles different types of killers into one sensationalist article:
Australian Psycho: The 7 Scariest Killers Down Under
Australian Psycho: The 7 scariest killers Down Under

BTW: one should always be very careful using terms like "serial killer". There is an entire part of criminology dealing with the taxonomy of murder: spree killers, serial killers, mass murderers, multiple murderers and so on. Each is different. Just because a person takes the lives of several people does not make them a serial killer.
Differences Between Mass, Spree and Serial Killers [Useful introduction]
What is the difference between a serial killer, spree killer and mass murderer?

If you want to read what the experts think, try this, from the FBI:
Serial Murder | Federal Bureau of Investigation
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository...ons-serial-murder-serial-murder-july-2008-pdf
There is this article that provides a quick distinction:
Multiple homicide includes cases in which victims are slain either at once (mass), over a short period of time (spree), or over an extended period of time (serial)
From: "Multiple Homicide: Patterns of Serial and Mass Murder", https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_Homicide_Patterns_of_Serial_and_Mass_Murder

 

[5L00TH]

From those photos, I have a hard time determining whether those other trees just have dark bark or whether they're burned.

That entire area of Gippsland was affected by bushfires over recent years. I wonder if anyone can pull up some historical burn maps to see if this area was affected. In other photos I've seen the media of the Grant Historic Area, bushfire damage was apparent - burnt trunks giving way to regrowth.

 

[5L00TH]

The Age newspaper has a long article about the accused and the investigation:
Loner, pilot, barbecue-lover - mystery swirls around accused killer
Russell Hill, Carol Clay disappearance: Mystery swirls around accused killer Greg Lynn

Can someone confirm for me something? The visual in the article puts the locked gate in a funny spot, south-east of RH and CC. I thought it was in the other direction?

 

[Elizabeth Lavenza]

The Age newspaper has a long article about the accused and the investigation:
Loner, pilot, barbecue-lover - mystery swirls around accused killer
Russell Hill, Carol Clay disappearance: Mystery swirls around accused killer Greg Lynn

Thank you. Very well written imo.

 

[Arboreal]

The Age newspaper has a long article about the accused and the investigation:
Loner, pilot, barbecue-lover - mystery swirls around accused killer
Russell Hill, Carol Clay disappearance: Mystery swirls around accused killer Greg Lynn

Just read the article. It is by noted crime journalist John Silvester, who in my opinion gave a somewhat less than impress radio interview. He does have contacts in the police, to be sure. But, this article contains so much conjecture and few attributed quotations. That is always a warning sign. He also attributes to Mr Lynn beliefs an states of mind, Mr Silvester has absolutely no way of knowing Mr Lynn felt, believed or knew: "A practical man, Lynn knew police..."
Nevertheless, it does contain some things of interest, if only to confirm speculation here.
1. The police are likely to have built a psychological profile of the accused. [Comment: This is hardly not surprising. It is standard practice. You can also bet the police trawled the accused's social media as well, interviewed family and friends and associates and reached back in time, too.]
2. The accused's alleged personality and prior family life and relations with others are described, but not in detail, but cohere with comments made here by Alicia__elizabeth
3. The Mt Hotham photograph of 4WD and trailer provided crucial and focused attention on the accused.
4. Police arrested the accused because they feared destruction of evidence and self-harm.
5. Mobile phone data is speculated by the journalist as being important. [Again: Doh! that was clear to anyone who watched the 60mins and Ch9 documentary. You could see the map of the data points in the background and they were posted on WS.]
6. police seemed to be confident they would solve the case. [My police friends said this from the very beginning.]
7. the article does give a list of people who have disappeared recently in the high country. However, one name on that list, Mr Conrad Whitlock, who disappeared in July, 2019, is anomalous. see stories here, here and here. The night before he went missing, the 72-year-old went to bed at 8:30pm and told his wife he probably would not see her in the morning because he was going to get some tests. This medical appointment was scheduled for about 10.00 in the morning he disappeared. He woke up about 3.00 am, reportedly from an alarm he set, and drove into the high country. Mr Whitlock left his white BMW on the side of Mount Buller Road along with his jacket, mobile phone and keys on the front seat. He has not been seen again and despite extensive searching of the area, no trace has been found. Police believe he may have been disoriented by strong pain medication he was taking and "fell off the mountain". In my view, Mr Whitlock should not be on this list.
One significant departure: the location of the gate that thwarted the exit from the valley.
8. On WS the belief has been the "locked gate" was the Myrtleford gate. That belief came from the press, for instance here and here, quoting the police. For instance, from the ABC link provided: ""Detectives have also been given information that a vehicle attempted to leave the valley late at night on the evening of Friday, March 20, but the Myrtleford gate was closed because of the bushfires, meaning that the driver had to make a complicated turn back in the direction from which they had come."" The Silvester article says the locked gate was on or near the Wonnangatta River Crossing. Silvester does not give the source of that information. I have looked at youtube videos, maps of the area and thanks to Brumby Jack, the road closures. I have not seen reference to a gate on the river at this location. Perhaps people on WS familiar with the area can provide an opinion. But at this juncture, I'm inclined to say the article is wrong on this point.
My overall rating for the Silvester article is a 2/10, but I am a hard marker.

 

[Arboreal]

Nah those logs weren’t burned there, if that’s what you mean. To me they look like they’ve been picked up either nearby or along the way, to use to throw over the burial site. I’m thinking he’s grabbed the logs to deter anything digging the bodies up while they were still fresh. Just doesn’t looks right coz nothing underneath is charred, you should have some sort of fire residue underneath. Something deliberate like that would stick out like dogs balls to a lot of people.

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Brumby Jack
I agree. It seems to me that those logs were burned elsewhere and placed there. We do not know, as you have observed, whether that was a photo taken prior to excavation or after police completed their work and "tidied up" the area.
These burned logs should not be taken as indicating, IMHO, a pyre and an attempt to destroy the remains using fire. Given the fact that there had been bush fires, and people were pretty toey about fires, even in late March (it would have been the 20th), and the burial/disposal site is only 700m from the camp ground (but with a lot of bush in between) I suspect that the person disposing of remains at this site would be unlikely to light a fire.
As for bones being subjected to fire. This is the subject of study. See:
Colourimetric analysis of thermally altered human bone samples (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45420-8.pdf) and
Fire and Bone: An Experimental Study of Cremation (Fire and Bone: An Experimental Study of Cremation | EXARC)
Forensic scientists will examine the bones for signs of fire. As well, they will be looking for other damage, such as teeth marks, knife markes and causes for the bones being "fragments". Was the fragmentation caused by natural processes, by animals or by human action, such as breaking them up with a hammer.
I am surprised that press, it seems citing police sources, spoke of "fragments". I know from other cases where human remains have been in the Australian bush, bones can remain largely intact for many years and certainly longer than the 18 months in this case. Additionally, so too with clothing. And none has been reported as being found in the excavation conducted this past week. How well preserved human remains will be depend of a large number of factors. We will have to wait, I suspect, for the trial and, if held, coronial inquest.

 

[Arboreal]

Apologies if this is now redundant but I'll post it anyway and then go back to Thread 4 and try and catch up.

Mr Lynn's neighbour noticed the car had been re-painted. While he said he couldn't tell "off-hand" exactly when it changed, he believes it could be "well over 12 months ago". That means it could have been 2018, not 2019.

Video published on 16 April, 2018

7 minute video of the drive from Wonnangatta to Dargo. The guy has a change of plan at 4:40 and instead of taking the Cynthea Range Track to Dargo, he decides to go via the Eaglevale Track. Interestingly, at 5:00 he sees a blue 4WD. Blue 4WDs may be extremely popular for all I know, but I nearly fell off my chair when I saw it.

View attachment 325076 View attachment 325077 View attachment 325078

Fresh insights into man arrested over missing Victoria campers

Thanks heaps for that JugdeJudi.
I hope you husband is on the mend and gets well quickly. Take care.

 

[OwlHeart]

Ah yes, how could I forget Ivan Milat? Although he wasn't active recently. I'll do some googling if I get time. ETA Thanks also to Emirates & Barbie - yes, the Claremont SK as well - why can I never remember his name?

There is talk of a possible serial killer in the Byron Bay area.

I had a very brief look at the Theo Hayez case on here, the backpacker who went missing in Byron Bay and several missing persons from the area were discussed with a heavy emphasis on a SK.

I found the threads to be primarily focused on mobile phone pings and it seemed to no avail, also, the very nature of the case just didn't sit right with me, confusing to say the least, so I stopped reading the threads, which I'd never contributed a post to.

Fortunately, as time and technology progress, the likelihood of any SK being found out increases.

 

[Detective Willy]

Just read the article. It is by noted crime journalist John Silvester, who in my opinion gave a somewhat less than impress radio interview. He does have contacts in the police, to be sure. But, this article contains so much conjecture and few attributed quotations. That is always a warning sign. He also attributes to Mr Lynn beliefs an states of mind, Mr Silvester has absolutely no way of knowing Mr Lynn felt, believed or knew: "A practical man, Lynn knew police..."
Nevertheless, it does contain some things of interest, if only to confirm speculation here.
1. The police are likely to have built a psychological profile of the accused. [Comment: This is hardly not surprising. It is standard practice. You can also bet the police trawled the accused's social media as well, interviewed family and friends and associates and reached back in time, too.]
2. The accused's alleged personality and prior family life and relations with others are described, but not in detail, but cohere with comments made here by Alicia__elizabeth
3. The Mt Hotham photograph of 4WD and trailer provided crucial and focused attention on the accused.
4. Police arrested the accused because they feared destruction of evidence and self-harm.
5. Mobile phone data is speculated by the journalist as being important. [Again: Doh! that was clear to anyone who watched the 60mins and Ch9 documentary. You could see the map of the data points in the background and they were posted on WS.]
6. police seemed to be confident they would solve the case. [My police friends said this from the very beginning.]
7. the article does give a list of people who have disappeared recently in the high country. However, one name on that list, Mr Conrad Whitlock, who disappeared in July, 2019, is anomalous. see stories here, here and here. The night before he went missing, the 72-year-old went to bed at 8:30pm and told his wife he probably would not see her in the morning because he was going to get some tests. This medical appointment was scheduled for about 10.00 in the morning he disappeared. He woke up about 3.00 am, reportedly from an alarm he set, and drove into the high country. Mr Whitlock left his white BMW on the side of Mount Buller Road along with his jacket, mobile phone and keys on the front seat. He has not been seen again and despite extensive searching of the area, no trace has been found. Police believe he may have been disoriented by strong pain medication he was taking and "fell off the mountain". In my view, Mr Whitlock should not be on this list.
One significant departure: the location of the gate that thwarted the exit from the valley.
8. On WS the belief has been the "locked gate" was the Myrtleford gate. That belief came from the press, for instance here and here, quoting the police. For instance, from the ABC link provided: ""Detectives have also been given information that a vehicle attempted to leave the valley late at night on the evening of Friday, March 20, but the Myrtleford gate was closed because of the bushfires, meaning that the driver had to make a complicated turn back in the direction from which they had come."" The Silvester article says the locked gate was on or near the Wonnangatta River Crossing. Silvester does not give the source of that information. I have looked at youtube videos, maps of the area and thanks to Brumby Jack, the road closures. I have not seen reference to a gate on the river at this location. Perhaps people on WS familiar with the area can provide an opinion. But at this juncture, I'm inclined to say the article is wrong on this point.
My overall rating for the Silvester article is a 2/10, but I am a hard marker.

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I think it’s a good article and one of the best we have seen so far regarding this case. As the matter is before the courts things are implied without being said and if we read between the lines we get a very good idea of what took place in the 3 day interview. I think JS follows websleuths for sure as there are a number of sections in the article that look “word for word” what has been written on these pages.

 

[Arboreal]

Can someone confirm for me something? The visual in the article puts the locked gate in a funny spot, south-east of RH and CC. I thought it was in the other direction?

Ah, just saw your post. Yes, excellent pickup. I noted that in my post @#54.

 

[Arboreal]

Apologies if this is now redundant but I'll post it anyway and then go back to Thread 4 and try and catch up.

Mr Lynn's neighbour noticed the car had been re-painted. While he said he couldn't tell "off-hand" exactly when it changed, he believes it could be "well over 12 months ago". That means it could have been 2018, not 2019.

Video published on 16 April, 2018

7 minute video of the drive from Wonnangatta to Dargo. The guy has a change of plan at 4:40 and instead of taking the Cynthea Range Track to Dargo, he decides to go via the Eaglevale Track. Interestingly, at 5:00 he sees a blue 4WD. Blue 4WDs may be extremely popular for all I know, but I nearly fell off my chair when I saw it.

View attachment 325076 View attachment 325077 View attachment 325078

Fresh insights into man arrested over missing Victoria campers

JudgeJudi
Thanks so much for posting that video. They are really useful in understanding the type of tracks the accused is alleged to have driven in the dead of night, towing a trailer.
This video -

- shows the Herne spur, which police searched. But as Brumby Jack said, it is very rough and difficult to drive along, particularly in the night, towing a trailer.
Here is a satellite photo, with map overlay: Herne Spur From Wonnangatta - 4x4 Earth 4WD Tracks