Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020 #2

[trujac]

I would have thought something would still be standing. I truly wonder if there was some kind of confrontation/struggle. Perhaps even desperation to get out of the tent. Or both.

It could even be that they were sitting around having what they thought was a friendly yarn with somebody, and then it turned very ugly. So everything was thrown into the fire to eliminate dna and evidence.

Any thoughts as to what those large round objects are among the fire debris? One looks like a waste bin. Pretty big to take camping though.

Another thing I was wondering, whether police brought in an indigenous tracker. Not that we would know that. But how useful that would have been around the time that Russell and Carol went missing.

Yes, the container that looks intact, it looks like a waste bin to me. Why would they have needed something like that? What do you make of the little scorch mark on the front hood above the headlight on the driver's side? Also, the bush behind the campsite looks pretty dried out--along with the surrounding brown grass...interesting that it didn't catch fire too or least show some heat burns from sparks. The indigenous tracker would have a good idea--even Buttons might have been helpful in the search.

 

[trujac]

In this article is a bigger/clearer picture of the burnt campsite--and I can see there isn't any scorch mark on the front bumper.
This article, I think is the best in so far as a complete overview of everything too. I didn't realize RH built the road he and CC traveled when he was a logger decades ago. That container now looks like a metal cylinder--maybe used for cooking?
Four people have gone missing within a 60km radius in the past year. Their fate remains a mystery

 

[trujac]

The more I think about the disappearance of RH and CC, there seems to be some common denominators with the disappearance of Niels Becker and Conrad Whitlock--e.g., all the missing men were avid experienced outdoorsmen, the complete lack of any evidence indicating what happened to them or where are they are now. Perhaps a killer observed RH camping for several weeks prior to picking up CC and bringing her back to the campsite. The killer wasn't expecting two people to show up. On a side note, the campsite fire looks like a flash fire to me--is it possible that the outside of the tent was lit or something ignited was tossed in the tent to get RH and CC to come out? I think it's possible the killer has a dumping ground easily accessible to them but off the beaten track in the valley.

 

[SouthAussie]

In this article is a bigger/clearer picture of the burnt campsite--and I can see there isn't any scorch mark on the front bumper.
This article, I think is the best in so far as a complete overview of everything too. I didn't realize RH built the road he and CC traveled when he was a logger decades ago. That container now looks like a metal cylinder--maybe used for cooking?
Four people have gone missing within a 60km radius in the past year. Their fate remains a mystery

Much better enlarged pic. You can even see unburned guidewires still attached to the stakes in the foreground.

In that article it says "When police got to Russell’s camp they found the remains of a fire that had burnt so hot it had swallowed up his tent and left black stains down the side of his 4WD." So perhaps the police have been able to determine that the burn marks on the vehicle were caused directly by the fire.

 

[SouthAussie]

The more I think about the disappearance of RH and CC, there seems to be some common denominators with the disappearance of Niels Becker and Conrad Whitlock--e.g., all the missing men were avid experienced outdoorsmen, the complete lack of any evidence indicating what happened to them or where are they are now. Perhaps a killer observed RH camping for several weeks prior to picking up CC and bringing her back to the campsite. The killer wasn't expecting two people to show up. On a side note, the campsite fire looks like a flash fire to me--is it possible that the outside of the tent was lit or something ignited was tossed in the tent to get RH and CC to come out? I think it's possible the killer has a dumping ground easily accessible to them but off the beaten track in the valley.

Yes, agree that it looks like a flashfire. Too many completely or partially unburned poles, too little spreading of fire.
I took a look to see if tents have flame retardant on them. It seems many/most don't due to sleeping inside among chemicals (essentially).
What they do often have on them - depending on the age of the tent - is different degrees of silicone. Some have silicone just outside, some have silicone inside and outside, primarily for water-proofing but it is also a flame retardant.
Being a bit of a camper, Russell's tent may not have been newish.


Silicone is difficult to ignite, and when it does burn it burns to a non-conductive ash. While burning, silicone does not give off toxic materials.
Why Use Silicone | Bellofram Silicones, Inc.

 

[JLZ]

I'm wondering if one of the barrels was part of an incinerator--something like this: High temperature waste incinerator - Vortex Inferno There are objects behind it that look like a possible flue and maybe a fan that could have fitted into it as a lid. I can't really see Russell operating an incinerator inside a tent--but one thing at a time.

 

[Satchie]

The more I think about the disappearance of RH and CC, there seems to be some common denominators with the disappearance of Niels Becker and Conrad Whitlock--e.g., all the missing men were avid experienced outdoorsmen, the complete lack of any evidence indicating what happened to them or where are they are now. Perhaps a killer observed RH camping for several weeks prior to picking up CC and bringing her back to the campsite. The killer wasn't expecting two people to show up. On a side note, the campsite fire looks like a flash fire to me--is it possible that the outside of the tent was lit or something ignited was tossed in the tent to get RH and CC to come out? I think it's possible the killer has a dumping ground easily accessible to them but off the beaten track in the valley.

I don't think the other two men's disappearances are all that mysterious. The alpine hiker encountered bad weather and likely went off the trail, and could never find it again. Living near Vancouver, I know this does happen and some people are never found, or found years later by fluke. The backcountry is huge and every square yard can't possibly be searched.

Conrad Whitlock, it seems to me, must have been in some kind of distress that sent him out at 3 am, without informing his wife, to drive to a place in the middle of nowhere next to the top of a sheer cliff. There was no reason for him to be there except suicide, IMO. Again, I know personally cases where people have gone off the sides of mountains and have never been found, or not for years until someone goes out climbing in that very challenging terrain.

ETA: it seems to me also, these men were on the move and only in particular places quite briefly and unexpectedly. Whereas Russell and Carol were, possibly, sitting ducks for someone to creep up on them.

 

[trujac]

I don't think the other two men's disappearances are all that mysterious. The alpine hiker encountered bad weather and likely went off the trail, and could never find it again. Living near Vancouver, I know this does happen and some people are never found, or found years later by fluke. The backcountry is huge and every square yard can't possibly be searched.

Conrad Whitlock, it seems to me, must have been in some kind of distress that sent him out at 3 am, without informing his wife, to drive to a place in the middle of nowhere next to the top of a sheer cliff. There was no reason for him to be there except suicide, IMO. Again, I know personally cases where people have gone off the sides of mountains and have never been found, or not for years until someone goes out climbing in that very challenging terrain.

ETA: it seems to me also, these men were on the move and only in particular places quite briefly and unexpectedly. Whereas Russell and Carol were, possibly, sitting ducks for someone to creep up on them.

Yes, could be possible--that Niels Becker wondered off the trail--that's the only explanation, save for foul play. However, it still doesn't address what happened to him and all of his gear?? How far could he have wondered off leaving no traces of his hiking expedition? The same scenario happened to RH, CC, and CW--they also vanished under mysterious circumstances; skilled serial killers often have a fool proof way of abducting and murdering vulnerable people--their hallmark, leaving no body or clues. I hope this isn't what is going on in the Wonnangatta Valley.

 

[trujac]

I'm wondering if one of the barrels was part of an incinerator--something like this: High temperature waste incinerator - Vortex Inferno There are objects behind it that look like a possible flue and maybe a fan that could have fitted into it as a lid. I can't really see Russell operating an incinerator inside a tent--but one thing at a time.

Yes--very possible. Was RH a hunter? Maybe he was drying meat too?

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes--very possible. Was RH a hunter? Maybe he was drying meat too?

Maybe smoking fish? I think where they were camping is protected from hunters.

They definitely would have needed some contraption for cooking. They had planned to stay for a week.
As well as a way to keep food edible. Filling up the esky with ice every day would likely not have been possible.

 

[trujac]

Maybe smoking fish? I think where they were camping is protected from hunters.

They definitely would have needed some contraption for cooking. They had planned to stay for a week.
As well as a way to keep food edible. Filling up the esky with ice every day would likely not have been possible.

yes, thank you for pointing out the fishing opportunities--maybe that is what CC liked about camping there, since she was an expert cook? Here's an article I found interesting about the rivers and fishing...
Mitchell - Angling Waters

 

[Kemug]

Wow, I just popped in for 5 mins tonight, and so many new theories and ideas! And all quite believable (unfortunately) - maybe I'll make some comments when I've got more time. The person who posted a while back that they had never come across such a mysterious happening (well, not those words, but similar) certainly got it right. So many pointers, so many possibilities, even quite a few clues, and we still don't know what happened. Way back in March, who would have thought that a couple of missing campers would become such a huge thing? But even with some new theories, they are still all "Yes, buts".

 

[trujac]

Yes, agree that it looks like a flashfire. Too many completely or partially unburned poles, too little spreading of fire.
I took a look to see if tents have flame retardant on them. It seems many/most don't due to sleeping inside among chemicals (essentially).
What they do often have on them - depending on the age of the tent - is different degrees of silicone. Some have silicone just outside, some have silicone inside and outside, primarily for water-proofing but it is also a flame retardant.
Being a bit of a camper, Russell's tent may not have been newish.


Silicone is difficult to ignite, and when it does burn it burns to a non-conductive ash. While burning, silicone does not give off toxic materials.
Why Use Silicone | Bellofram Silicones, Inc.

Does it seem odd to you what appears to be black melted puddles close to the truck--assuming the tent would burn to ash, what could account for what else might have burned to leave that substance? It also seems to be in other parts of the area too. I guess they could have had a large rubber mat for a cushion in the tent? Do you have an idea how far they were from a river with fish? I guess the search teams would have gone through the rivers looking for RH and CC and/or evidence.

 

[trujac]

Wow, I just popped in for 5 mins tonight, and so many new theories and ideas! And all quite believable (unfortunately) - maybe I'll make some comments when I've got more time. The person who posted a while back that they had never come across such a mysterious happening (well, not those words, but similar) certainly got it right. So many pointers, so many possibilities, even quite a few clues, and we still don't know what happened. Way back in March, who would have thought that a couple of missing campers would become such a huge thing? But even with some new theories, they are still all "Yes, buts".

Nice to see you dropped in! Looking forward to reading your ideas...

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'm thinking some horrible thoughts

 

[trujac]

It just crossed my mind--maybe RH and CC went with someone to go fishing...he took his fishing gear, drone, and cell phone...or they all went to fly the drone and explore an area. Had they left with someone they thought was a friend for a day time excursion that could explain the fire...it was an accident. Something caught fire--maybe a slow cooking device, and RH and CC's disappearance is a completely separate event. Separating the fire incident from their disappearance seems to make more sense to me, especially after our discussion on the scorch marks on RH's vehicle likely the result of a partially collapsed canopy. Also, it would explain how a second vehicle came into play and how they were removed from the area.

 

[SouthAussie]

Does it seem odd to you what appears to be black melted puddles close to the truck--assuming the tent would burn to ash, what could account for what else might have burned to leave that substance? It also seems to be in other parts of the area too. I guess they could have had a large rubber mat for a cushion in the tent? Do you have an idea how far they were from a river with fish? I guess the search teams would have gone through the rivers looking for RH and CC and/or evidence.

Apparently, they were right by the Wonnangatta River. When I zoomed in on this police-supplied photo, those white words say Wonnangatta River.


High Country mystery deepens as police investigate 'new sightings' of missing campers

I did notice that their table top was completely gone (in pics you can see right through where the table top should be) so perhaps melted puddles were created from items like the table top. Maybe also from reusable plastic plates/dishes. Maybe from a vinyl blowup mattress (we use a thick blowup mattress when we go camping, for comfort).

 

[trujac]

Apparently, they were right by the Wonnangatta River. When I zoomed in on this police-supplied photo, those white words say Wonnangatta River.

View attachment 263531
High Country mystery deepens as police investigate 'new sightings' of missing campers

I did notice that their table top was completely gone (in pics you can see right through where the table top should be) so perhaps melted puddles were created from items like the table top. Maybe also from reusable plastic plates/dishes. Maybe from a vinyl blowup mattress (we use a thick blowup mattress when we go camping, for comfort).

Were they within a short walking distance from their campsite? I can't recall our earlier discussions on this--5 months is a long time. I would think parts of the river had more fish in it. Have you fished there? Yes, that makes sense--blow up mattress...thx.

 

[SouthAussie]

Were they within a short walking distance from their campsite? I can't recall our earlier discussions on this--5 months is a long time. I would think parts of the river had more fish in it. Have you fished there? Yes, that makes sense--blow up mattress...thx.

Yes, judging by the dot that the police put on the map I would say they were practically right next to the river.

No, when we go camping it is usually more ocean-side and the fishing is done from a jetty. We have only camped in SA (and overseas).

 

[trujac]

I'm thinking some horrible thoughts

yes, It's hard not to think horrible thoughts when there is so little information to go on...I am thinking now--did they drown? It would seem unlikely, but could they have drowned while fishing...then floated quite a ways down stream ending up snagged under heavy brush and a fallen tree somewhere? Maybe RH had a medical episode in the river, and CC drowned while trying to help him?