Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020

[Panda]

Ramjet, are there any falls or swimming holes in the area they were camping?

A traveller saw the fire damage at 2:00PM on Sat. (no smoke evident so the fire likely occurred a few hours earlier.)
They reported it several days later (the area is very remote so this is not a surprise)
I believe it is possible that others might have subsequently also seen the burnt camp site and not bothered to report since it would be most likely an unfortunate accident.

I missed this info. I have to say, if I had come across a burnt out campsite, I would have most definitely reported it straightaway, not several days later, even if it necessitated driving back down to an area with reception. Is the campsite north of the homestead? Do people stay at the homestead? Did I read something about Russell using a radio from the homestead upon arrival? How many people typically would camp along that stretch at that time of the year? It's one thing to come across a burnt out campsite with no vehicle present but yet another with a vehicle still at the site and yet no campers anywhere.

 

[bancam]

We’re all (me included) putting a great deal of stock in the drone theory. Yes it still seems the most plausible explanation but it also involves many assumptions, e.g. that a drone was a big deal to Russell, or that operating a drone was new to him and not just that it was an upgraded model he’d recently acquired.

I would also note here that operating a Mavic is literally child’s play - I know 10yos who fly them in the backyard and down to the beach after school, unaided and unsupervised. They’re nothing rare or unique (or particularly expensive for outdoorsy middle income earners) anymore. They have so many inbuilt sensors and safety features - like automatic return-to-base before the battery drains, wind sensors that won’t let you fly in unstable conditions, auto upload and backup to the DJI cloud if there is a data connection, etc.

Without the drone - and our theorising that he accidentally downed it somewhere that turned out to be quite remote, and then attempted to retrieve it with Carol in hot pursuit - everything still is a little mysterious.

There’s no actual evidence he had it with him when he last left the campsite, only that police say they think he took it camping and it appears to be missing. There’s no hint as to whether a charger or accessories for the drone were found at the abandoned campsite or in the 4WD - if not, why not (you don’t normally carry the separate lumpy charging block around with you when you go flying around areas where there are no power points to plug into).

The police have included the drone in their own theorising, yes, including releasing photos of it, but they haven’t exactly made it the centrepiece of their inquiry or revealed salient information like whether he had a carry bag for it (optional extra) or spare batteries (also optional) and, if so, were they at the campsite or missing when it was processed? Or what sort of mobile device he normally used with it, what his App Store/Google Play Store accounts told them about installs of the DJI Go app, or what data DJI itself may have given to them by now upon request. Or what Russell’s personal history and experience was using drones, be they consumer or commercial models (they even use them in the logging industry these days). All this would seem to be information they could get out there.

So that leaves us endlessly speculating on the drone as the cause, but if it’s suddenly removed from the equation (e.g. assume for one moment Russell wasn’t flying it that day) where does that leave Russell and Carol??

If they BOTH came to grief on a bush walk, it’s hard to imagine they would’ve picked a rugged and unusual path through dense and dangerous bush at their age, so they likely would’ve been discovered by now on a more formal route.

The unexplained campsite fire
...and a drone going down somewhere
....and two older people scrambling to retrieve it
...and both becoming incapacitated or killed in the process
...and no physical sign of them left
...and the two of them being together without his spouse knowing
...is all possible and somewhat logical, yes. But it is still quite a set of circumstances and coincidences.

 

[Panda]

Ramjet, are there any falls or swimming holes in the area they were camping?

Apologies, double post. Unable to delete.

 

[Panda]

We’re all (me included) putting a great deal of stock in the drone theory. Yes it still seems the most plausible explanation but it also involves many assumptions, e.g. that a drone was a big deal to Russell, or that operating a drone was new to him and not just that it was an upgraded model he’d recently acquired.

I would also note here that operating a Mavic is literally child’s play - I know 10yos who fly them in the backyard and down to the beach after school, unaided and unsupervised. They’re nothing rare or unique (or particularly expensive for outdoorsy middle income earners) anymore. They have so many inbuilt sensors and safety features - like automatic return-to-base before the battery drains, wind sensors that won’t let you fly in unstable conditions, auto upload and backup to the DJI cloud if there is a data connection, etc.

Without the drone - and our theorising that he accidentally downed it somewhere that turned out to be quite remote, and then attempted to retrieve it with Carol in hot pursuit - everything still is a little mysterious.

There’s no actual evidence he had it with him when he last left the campsite, only that police say they think he took it camping and it appears to be missing. There’s no hint as to whether a charger or accessories for the drone were found at the abandoned campsite or in the 4WD - if not, why not (you don’t normally carry the separate lumpy charging block around with you when you go flying around areas where there are no power points to plug into).

The police have included the drone in their own theorising, yes, including releasing photos of it, but they haven’t exactly made it the centrepiece of their inquiry or revealed salient information like whether he had a carry bag for it (optional extra) or spare batteries (also optional) and, if so, were they at the campsite or missing when it was processed? Or what sort of mobile device he normally used with it, what his App Store/Google Play Store accounts told them about installs of the DJI Go app, or what data DJI itself may have given to them by now upon request. Or what Russell’s personal history and experience was using drones, be they consumer or commercial models (they even use them in the logging industry these days). All this would seem to be information they could get out there.

So that leaves us endlessly speculating on the drone as the cause, but if it’s suddenly removed from the equation (e.g. assume for one moment Russell wasn’t flying it that day) where does that leave Russell and Carol??

If they BOTH came to grief on a bush walk, it’s hard to imagine they would’ve picked a rugged and unusual path through dense and dangerous bush at their age, so they likely would’ve been discovered by now on a more formal route.

The unexplained campsite fire
...and a drone going down somewhere
....and two older people scrambling to retrieve it
...and both becoming incapacitated or killed in the process
...and no physical sign of them left
...and the two of them being together without his spouse knowing
...is all possible and somewhat logical, yes. But it is still quite a set of circumstances and coincidences.

Very good points.

Lately I've been wondering if Carol and Russell may have gone to a swimming hole somewhere, as I can't imagine Carol not wanting to be clean, and one of them got into difficulties swimming. Perhaps the other tried to save them and they both ended up drowning. A very long shot I know. One would have thought the police or other campers would have found some evidence of clothing left on the bank of the river or edge of a swimming hole.

The reason I started pondering this theory is because the area I've recently moved to has an extremely large, deep water hole that my son and I found when exploring with my German Shepherd dog. The rocks are so steep and slippery with algae that my German Shepherd slid into the water. The formation of the rocks meant he was unable to climb out. Indeed, I was unable to climb out, as there is nowhere to grab onto. It was extremely lucky that my son was with us, as he was able to grab my dog and haul him out of the water before he drowned. Likewise, my son pulled me out of the water, otherwise I most certainly would have drowned as well. To put this in perspective, I'm around 60, my son in his 30's. An important lesson was learned from this experience and on subsequent visits I ensured my German Shepherd had on a lifejacket and I now only venture to this area when my son is present. Given Carol and Russell are some 10 years older than me, I now see this as a plausible possibility. It would of course depend on the remoteness of the area if they did go swimming somewhere to explain why no evidence of clothing, towels, etc, would have been found (if indeed this theory is possible). It would also have to be somewhere close to where the campsite was, otherwise surely they would have driven to it in the 4WD, which was obviously left at the campsite.

 

[Ramjet]

Very good points.

Lately I've been wondering if Carol and Russell may have gone to a swimming hole somewhere, as I can't imagine Carol not wanting to be clean, and one of them got into difficulties swimming. Perhaps the other tried to save them and they both ended up drowning. A very long shot I know. One would have thought the police or other campers would have found some evidence of clothing left on the bank of the river or edge of a swimming hole.

The reason I started pondering this theory is because the area I've recently moved to has an extremely large, deep water hole that my son and I found when exploring with my German Shepherd dog. The rocks are so steep and slippery with algae that my German Shepherd slid into the water. The formation of the rocks meant he was unable to climb out. Indeed, I was unable to climb out, as there is nowhere to grab onto. It was extremely lucky that my son was with us, as he was able to grab my dog and haul him out of the water before he drowned. Likewise, my son pulled me out of the water, otherwise I most certainly would have drowned as well. To put this in perspective, I'm around 60, my son in his 30's. An important lesson was learned from this experience and on subsequent visits I ensured my German Shepherd had on a lifejacket and I now only venture to this area when my son is present. Given Carol and Russell are some 10 years older than me, I now see this as a plausible possibility. It would of course depend on the remoteness of the area if they did go swimming somewhere to explain why no evidence of clothing, towels, etc, would have been found (if indeed this theory is possible). It would also have to be somewhere close to where the campsite was, otherwise surely they would have driven to it in the 4WD, which was obviously left at the campsite.

This is the head waters of a river system.
The Wonnangatta River is just a trickle at this time of year..
You can step across without getting wet.
They could have gone anywhere in a 5Km radius from the camp site.

 

[Ramjet]

This drone is not a kid's toy

DJI MAVIC 2 PRO Drone Hasselblad Camera 20MP 4K, 64GB Sandisk SD Combo/Option | eBay

 

[bancam]

This drone is not a kid's toy

DJI MAVIC 2 PRO Drone Hasselblad Camera 20MP 4K, 64GB Sandisk SD Combo/Option | eBay

Well I didn’t say it was a kid’s toy, I said that:

...operating a Mavic is literally child’s play - I know 10yos who fly them in the backyard and down to the beach after school, unaided and unsupervised...

And it is and I do, and I’ve joined them in flying one too. The thought of a drone might baffle the non-technologically inclined, but kids today generally are not. I don’t think we can assume Russell was baffled either, given we’ve been told of his methodical, fastidious nature. Nor do I think the price tag would’ve particularly rattled him in this day and age.

The hardest thing about the Mavic in my experience is powering the unit on/off before/after use - it has an odd little trick to it.

 

[Sprockett7701]

'Despite a number of searches over the past seven weeks, the pair have not been located and have not contacted family or friends,' the police statement said.

'These searches are expected to resume in the coming weeks depending on the weather.'
...
'It is still yet to be determined whether their disappearance is suspicious,' the police statement said.

Two major search operations involving drones, helicopters, mounted police, search dogs and ground crews have come up with nothing.

They say he is a very experienced and 'well-equipped bushman,' the Herald Sun reported.

Making the case even more peculiar is that Mr Hill's wife Robyn, 71, revealed she had no idea her husband was with another woman when he went missing.

She said her husband had been friendly with Ms Clay, who was once the President of the Country Women's Association of Victoria, for decades but was unaware they were travelling together.

Following the conclusion of the second search, specialist detectives from the Victoria Police missing persons squad were brought in to assist local investigators.

Acting Sergeant Scott Wilkinson who was part of the team looking for the pair, said the search was substantial, but ultimately fruitless.
View attachment 246496
We were searching every bit of bush and terrain in the immediate area,' he told Nine News.

'The subsequent search has got nothing in the way of evidence, no signs at all of the missing people.

'We are disappointed, we would like to get some result, particularly for the families of the missing people.'

Detective Insp Andrew Stamper of the Missing Persons Squad said police want to speak with anyone who may have seen the couple near the time they disappeared.

'This is a real and traumatic mystery and we need all the help we can get via Crime Stoppers,' Insp Stamper said.

Police said they continue to hold concerns for the pair due to the length of time they've been missing and because Mr Hill suffers from a number of medical conditions.
New clue in hunt for married man who vanished while camping with his friend seven weeks ago | Daily Mail Online

O/T

But did anyone else chuckle at the CWA reference...how very dare the ex president of the CWA be involved in such shenanigans ;-)

 

[Ramjet]

Worth watching
Anatomy of a drone crash

 

[PrimeSuspect]

What doesn't make sense to me is the idea Russell went off on his own or with Carol, to fly the drone, bushwalk or go for a swim after their tent caught fire? The fire would have put a serious damper on their holiday, probably Russell was hopping mad about it. I could imagine a person might go off for a walk to calm down, not for a leisurely stroll leaving that mess behind, the truck has scorch marks on it!
This leads me to believe Carol was there alone when the tent caught fire, maybe, knitting or reading a book, and she managed to put it out. The coincidence here is that Russell didn't return because he couldn't, he lay dead or dying somewhere in the bush. The fire would have majorly stressed Carol out.
Carol went off searching for him, exhausted and extremely frightened, it may have been getting dark when she began the search, she became incapacitated somehow and died. If this is the case, she won't be found near him.

I don't think it's plausible the holiday mood continued after the fire. Of course, foul play shouldn't be ruled out. JMO

 

[Ramjet]

Great weather in Melbourne at present..
Hoping that a renewed search is underway while conditions are stable in the Wonnangatta area.
With luck we should have a resolution to this case in the next 2 weeks or so.
Meanwhile I am doing considerable research on these drones and finding it very interesting.
The DJI Mavic Pro is a high end unit and has a huge amount of built-in safety features.
Despite this it's still possible to crash or flight abort.
I suspect that Russell might have pushed the limits of the device.
We'll see...

 

[Ramjet]

Wouldn't want to leave one of these unattended.
AU12V 5KW Diesel Air Heater Tank Remote Control Thermostat Caravan Motorhome RV 603977591078 | eBay

 

[Profplum]

Fresh twist in case of missing hikers who disappeared after going on a secret camping trip | Daily Mail Online
Nothing new in this article.

 

[Profplum]

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ounting-mountain-mystery-20200521-p54v4p.html
Many campers and hunters have stories of the Button-Man emerging from the dark and approaching them at campsites. He is described as around 70, with short grey hair, wearing dark jackets and "bloody scary"

This article is worth a read.

 

[bancam]

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ounting-mountain-mystery-20200521-p54v4p.html
Many campers and hunters have stories of the Button-Man emerging from the dark and approaching them at campsites. He is described as around 70, with short grey hair, wearing dark jackets and "bloody scary"

This article is worth a read.

Great find, thanks for posting. This is a real nugget:

“...What has not been revealed is that Hill was in the area a week before, flying his drone near the Button-Man’s campsite...”

If Russell has been all the way up in this remote area presumably on his own, with drone, and only one week before returning there with Carol, this really makes me wonder.

 

[Ramjet]

There is no mystery about the Niels Becker case.. He just took a short cut through the scrub and got himself lost or injured...never to be found... RIP Niels.
In this case the couple have got into trouble due to a misadventure involving a drone...
People need to realize how easy it is to get into difficulty which will cost you your life.
It's impossible to find lost persons in this terrain.

 

[PingTheRouter]

real cold and icy out that way now, i doubt they are alive still but if they are its icy

 

[Ramjet]

real cold and icy out that way now, i doubt they are alive still but if they are its icy

Yes it's definitely too late now (> 2 months)
I am still chewing over all the possibilities .. but the drone seems to be the clincher.
I know if I had lost my AU$2,500 + drone in the bush I would push myself hard to find it.
The DJI Mavic Pro is certainly a great gadget.. but even with experience it is still possible to lose it... here possibly due to an aborted Return to Home.
With such a huge range it could be Kms away.
It's still strange why there was no out going emergency call on radio.. (UHF CB) .. unless they perished while searching on the Fri evening or very early Sat. .. before the visiting group witnessed the tent site. (2:00PM Sat 21st.)
It's unfortunate that no other campers were around at the time of their demise..

 

[PingTheRouter]

I know if I had lost my AU$2,500 + drone in the bush I would push myself hard to find it.

when they went missing, it was still quite warm out that way,
if it was me as an elderly person i would have taken my 4WD to go find it, it would have kept me out of the sun and its quicker
so i struggle with the drone theory even though its obviously gone

about the only thing i can come up with, is they went for a hike and something has happened, maybe a medical episode possibly they slipped and fell there is some dangerous places around there iv been up there before, which is why the drone is gone because they have it on them or did

yeah i dunno aye, its so baffling but at the same time all aussie's know the bush is not for mucking around its a dangerous place that can take lives in a miniute

could be something so simple as, they went for a hike or even if they were chasing the drone, someone gets bit by a brown snake or red belly and you know freaking out the other person has a cardiac event and dies leaving the other to die from old age and snake bite

they were so remote i mean anything is possible, the fire could have been coincidence because they were gone for so long and the sun heated up the charger and bang fire starts

 

[Morrisa]

Could this be related?
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-victoria-s-high-country-20200523-p54vsi.html