Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #7

[JudgeJudi]

"Driven to Sale, showered and fed, he was taken to the interview room to be asked questions under a caution that anything he said could be used in evidence".

Two detectives sat opposite him, part of a team that had spent 20 months trying to unravel what happened.

"The fact that he spent three nights in custody before being charged meant he was happy to talk to police about many things, including the disappearance of the couple. But there is a world of difference between a conversation and a confession. In such cases it is almost certain his lawyer would have recommended he didn’t talk, but he chose to engage regardless. This is a path often taken by the innocent, or by those who think they are the cleverest person in the room”.

“In long-term investigations, detectives usually build a psychological profile of the suspect. The police interviewers were selected because of their intimate knowledge of the case and the probability they could build a relationship with him. One was a “bushie” with a love of four-wheel-driving and camping in remote areas, just like Greg Lynn. The police had known this day was likely to come. They had rehearsed, practising likely questions and answers. The actual process would not have been based on bluff, bullying or intimidation. Detectives are taught to try and build a rapport with the suspect. It is a game of cards where both sides keep their aces close to their chest until the time is right”.

“Experienced police say that, in interviews where the subject is talking, it is usual for them to give a version of events that alters when police introduce evidence that casts doubts on the story. Then in later versions the mix of truth and lies alters further as the suspect gives a version that minimises their culpability”.

Loner, pilot, barbecue-lover - mystery swirls around accused killer

 

[JudgeJudi]

Why did he string the interview process out for 3 days - possibly to glean some information on what they knew. The only reason I can think of that may have led him telling the detectives where the bodies were located is they may have advised him on the last day of his interview that there are no body no parole laws in Victoria.

“… In contrast, other States and Territories such as Queensland, South Australia and Victoria have no body no parole laws effectively refusing parole to offenders who fail to disclose the remains of the victim’s body”.
…

“In Victoria, as per section 74AABA of the Corrections Act 1986 (Vic), the Board must not grant parole in respect of a prisoner serving a sentence of imprisonment for an offence of murder (including conspiracy to or being an accessory to), or manslaughter unless the Board is satisfied that the prisoner has cooperated satisfactorily in the investigation to identify:

• the location, or the last known location, of the body or remains of the victim; and
• the place where the body or remains of the victim may be found.

Factors previously outlined will be relevant to assessing cooperation.

Furthermore, the Board may have regard to information ascertained from the Crown’s case put at trial if that case includes reference to whether the prisoner was acknowledged to have information relevant to the location of the body or remains”.

Scroll down to Victoria 'Nobody No Parole' Laws

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Loner, pilot, barbecue-lover - mystery swirls around accused killer

The detectives who spoke to Greg Lynn about missing campers Carol Clay and Russell Hill last month had never met him, but they had already built a psychological profile of the suspect.

www.theage.com.au

"The few people who were close to him started to ask what had happened to his trailer"

 

[srper2]

You have the right to make two phone calls:

• one to a lawyer
• one to a friend or relative.

The police must give you a private space to use the phone, where the police cannot hear you.

The police officer might not let you call anyone if:

• …
• the police officer reasonably believes the phone call may:
  • help another person involved in the offence get away
  • lose, change or destroy evidence
  • put other people in danger.

https://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/being-arrested

He probably thought he was the smartest person in the room and didn't need advice from anyone. In this day and age, how many people don't know they have the right to speak to a lawyer.

I wonder if he called anyone? can't help but imagining myself using my two calls to call for Door Dash and Uber Eats then spending three days singing 99 bottles of beer on the wall...

 

[ScottToorak]

If GL and or his lawyer have admitted that GL killed both RH & CC does this mean he is either guilty of murder or guilty of manslaughter?
Is there any possibility of Gl being acquitted of murder or manslaughter if GL has admitted he did kill both persons and as believed led police to the bodies?
I am so confused as to where this matter may end up as there is clearly no denial of involvement?.

 

[Edvis]

If GL and or his lawyer have admitted that GL killed both RH & CC does this mean he is either guilty of murder or guilty of manslaughter?
Is there any possibility of Gl being acquitted of murder or manslaughter if GL has admitted he did kill both persons and as believed led police to the bodies?
I am so confused as to where this matter may end up as there is clearly no denial of involvement?.

May be wheeling and dealing on a plea deal despite the fact's that are known with the suspects shifty actions after the incident leading to the deaths of others. Comes a point no matter how much one tries to dodge the spotlight, darn thing keeps lighting you up.

 

[JBowie]

If GL and or his lawyer have admitted that GL killed both RH & CC does this mean he is either guilty of murder or guilty of manslaughter?
Is there any possibility of Gl being acquitted of murder or manslaughter if GL has admitted he did kill both persons and as believed led police to the bodies?
I am so confused as to where this matter may end up as there is clearly no denial of involvement?.

My view as a non-lawyer, after reading what constitutes manslaughter in VIC (linked below), is that he hasn't a prayer of arguing manslaughter.

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) - #74

The foster parents of toddler William Tyrrell won‘t face court until the end of the year as police continue investigations into claims they assaulted a child who was not the missing three-year-old. . . . Their cases were due to be heard next week but have been postponed until September 4 at...

www.websleuths.com

 

[everybodhi]

If GL and or his lawyer have admitted that GL killed both RH & CC does this mean he is either guilty of murder or guilty of manslaughter?
Is there any possibility of Gl being acquitted of murder or manslaughter if GL has admitted he did kill both persons and as believed led police to the bodies?
I am so confused as to where this matter may end up as there is clearly no denial of involvement?.

There’s a possibility, it depends on how the jury interprets his actions.

Self-defence law in Australia

The general rule regarding self-defence is that a person is allowed to take any defensive or evasive steps that they believe to be necessary. Unlike other areas of law, self-defence isn’t reliant on a specific formulaic approach, but rather, is dependent on the facts of the matter, with the question left for the courts and a jury to decide.​

At common law, the leading case on self-defence is Zecevic v DPP (1987) 162 CLR 645, where the accused killed his neighbour after an argument. The accused argued he believed that the deceased had a knife and a shotgun in his possession, which compelled the accused to go into his unit to retrieve his gun, and as a consequence, shooting his neighbour dead.

During the trial the presiding judge withdrew the issue of self-defence, resulting in a conviction. On a successful appeal to the High Court, a retrial was ordered with Dawson and Toohey JJ setting out the requirements for self-defence:

“The question to be asked in the end is quite simple. It is whether the accused believed upon reasonable grounds that it was necessary in self-defence to do what he did. If he had that belief and there were reasonable grounds for it, or if the jury is left in reasonable doubt about the matter, then he is entitled to an acquittal.”

 

[JBowie]

Although the contents of Lynn’s interview that took place over four days cannot be reported due to a suppression order, during cross-examination [Detective Senior Constable Brett] Florence said: “If he was an innocent man I wouldn’t have charged him.”

(Paywalled)

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/dogged-legwork-in-case-of-missing-campers-russell-hill-and-carol-clay/news-story/bec9be8e88ec37f3ecaa4ec713e65d0a

 

[JudgeJudi]

Information contained within the brief alleges Lynn camped overnight in the wilderness after he allegedly shot Ms Clay and stabbed Mr Hill to death.

While reports of a cache of legal firearms found at Lynn's home was reported last week, it has since been revealed a longarm silencer was also located there.

How cops 'spooked' ex-Jetstar pilot into revealing location of campers

He was licenced and registered as owning 9 firearms, but only 8 have been reported as being seized by police

If the missing weapon was a shotgun, and if he had used the silencer on it, I'd find that more than a little interesting.

"Under questioning from Mr Dann, these witnesses confirmed they were asked to investigate if Ms Clay could have been killed by an “accidental discharge” as Mr Hill and Mr Lynn allegedly wrestled over Mr Lynn’s shotgun.

Mr Hill was then allegedly fatally stabbed in the fight.

Before the court, Crown prosecutor John Dickie said this account “might not actually reflect” how police intend to put the case against Mr Lynn".

Link

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Although the contents of Lynn’s interview that took place over four days cannot be reported due to a suppression order, during cross-examination [Detective Senior Constable Brett] Florence said: “If he was an innocent man I wouldn’t have charged him.”

I thought innocence or guilt was decided by a judge or jury.

 

[JBowie]

I thought innocence or guilt was decided by a judge or jury.

It is, but the prosecution's assertion in criminal trials is that the defendant is guilty of the charge/charges brought and that it will proceed to prove that, beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[SouthAussie]

My view as a non-lawyer, after reading what constitutes manslaughter in VIC (linked below), is that he hasn't a prayer of arguing manslaughter.

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) - #74

The foster parents of toddler William Tyrrell won‘t face court until the end of the year as police continue investigations into claims they assaulted a child who was not the missing three-year-old. . . . Their cases were due to be heard next week but have been postponed until September 4 at...

www.websleuths.com

Borce Ristevski spent quite a long time charged with murder (in Vic) then at the last minute, right before the trial was supposed to start, he went for a plea of manslaughter - which was accepted.
I think probably because the police could not determine how Karen (his wife) was murdered.
I sometimes wonder if similar will happen in this case.

 

[Arboreal]

Two stories today provide some additional information and confirms other matters.
The Guardian: "Drones, phones and secret tapes: how police zeroed in on Greg Lynn over alleged murders of Victorian campers"
The Sydney Morning Herald: "Inside the police investigation over the missing High Country campers". This story also contains a timeline.
1. Police used the traffic cameras and cell phone records. In May 2020, an analysis of Hill’s phone data found that between 9.26am and 9.50am on 21 March 2020 the device appeared to be travelling between Dargo and Mount Hotham, according to a statement tendered to the court. On 3 June 2020, detectives were provided footage from the automatic numberplate recognition cameras for a 10-minute period on Mount Hotham. The cameras showed 12 cars, but only one of them – Mr Lynn’s – went through at the same time as Hill’s phone appeared to be travelling in the area, police allege.
"By June 3, 2020 they were left with just one – a dark-coloured Nissan Patrol towing a trailer.". It seems that the camera may have given the number plate.
2. The midnight 30 point turn at the Myrtleford gate, reported in the press previously, does not appear in these stories and did not figure in the committal hearing. I speculated that this location - within a cell tower coverage - might have given some information. Apparently not.
3. "Four months after Hill and Clay’s disappearances, it was clear to everyone the operation was no longer a rescue mission and instead a search for human remains.". That would make it about the end of July. Police have previously said (I think in 2021) that from the middle of 2020 they were convinced that Mr Hill and Ms Clay met with foul play and that at least one other person was involved. Quite how they had reached that conclusion they have not said.
4. Rumours were circulating from the time of Mr Hill and Ms Clay's disappearance in 2020 that a mysterious local nicknamed “Button Man” might have been involved in Hill and Clay’s disappearance. However, police had identified “Button Man” – a bushman known for carving buttons out of deer antlers – as a 74-year-old former Reservoir man and cleared him of any involvement by the end of April 2020. Police said repeatedly from I recall late 2020 that "Button Man" had nought to do with it.
5. Detectives Detective Acting Sergeant Brett Florence and Detective Senior Constable Abbey Justin visited Lynn’s Caroline Springs home for the first time on 14 July 2020. The detectives were from the missing persons squad (not homicide). This is interesting in that police had concluded from mid 2020 that they were dealing with a disappearance from foul play. Det A/Sgt Florence told the committal hearing that at the time of the visit, Mr Lynn was a person of interest – he was more than merely a witness, but police would need to gather “substantial information to progress to the next level, which would be a suspect”. The reason for the visit, I conjecture, was to see if he could be eliminate from the enquiry or to obtain "base line" statements from him so that if he was formally interviewed later - police could see if his story changed. It is very much a game of cat and mouse.
6. By early December 2020, Mr Lynn was the one primary suspect. It was at that time that police emplaced listening devices in his home and vehicle and monitor his movements.
7. A few weeks after October 2021 – more than 18 months after Mr Hill and Ms Clay vanished police revealed to the public one of their key lines of inquiry. That their working theory that Hill and Clay may have had a “confrontational interaction” with someone. Conjecture: This came from the police listening to Mr Lynn talking to himself. I had wondered at the time why police were pursing this specific line of enquiry and wondered if they had "evidence" for their hypothesis.
8. At no point in the 16-page statement of Det A/Sgt Florence that was released to the media is there any mention of how or why Lynn is alleged to have killed Hill and Clay.

 

[Arboreal]

The sequence of events surrounding the killing of Mr Hill and Ms Clay is somwhat unclear, it seems to me. Bearing in mind that at no point in the 16-page statement of Det A/Sgt Florence to the Committal Hearing that was released to the media is there any mention of how or why Lynn is alleged to have killed Mr Hill and Ms Clay.
But other evidence provided to the court during Mr Lynn’s committal hearing canvassed various scenarios considered by police.
A statement by police forensics officer Mark Gellatly (also released to the media) indicated detectives investigating the case asked him to consider whether it was possible the deaths occurred after a specific scenario: that Mr Lynn was annoyed by a drone flown by Mr Hill and Ms Clay, and confronted them about it before retreating to his own camp site. Mr Hill allegedly then grabbed Lynn’s gun from his car, the pair wrestled for control of the weapon, causing it to discharge and shoot Clay dead, and, as the fight progressed, Lynn stabbed Hill to death.
This is interesting in that the court was also told - I can't recall by whom - that the wrestling for control of the firearm occurred at the bonnet of Mr Hill's ute, which was parked nose in to the bush, and a camp toiled close to the bonnet. Note that the firearm type does not appear to have been tendered to court - some reports say a shotgun; other reports say a bullet was found, suggesting a rifle.
The location where the firearm was discharged, has not been revealed publicly, but one scenario reported by the press is that the two men were wrestling for control of the firearm while they were near the bonnet of Mr Hill's ute. Ms Clay was located near the rear passenger side wheel of Mr Hill's ute. The firearm discharged, the round destroying the ute's passenger side mirror and striking Ms Clay in the head, killing her instantly.
For the police scenario to be viable, Mr Hill would have had to walk, from his campsite to Mr Lynn's vehicle - a distance of 30 metres or so - and there, remove the firearm from Mr Lynn's vehicle and for Mr Hill to then move back to the bonnet area of his, Mr Hill's ute, where the skuffle for control of the firearm occurred. I must say, this sounds implausible.
I will be interested to see what scenarios police and defence place before the trial.

 

[Arboreal]

I mean to say in relation to the articles I mentioned above and earlier posts about questioning practices of police, that although not mentioned in the stories, police routinely use in such investigations, psychologists and some times anthropologists who build "profiles" of the individuals subject to investigation. They also consult people who work with their suspect to find out what they like and do not like, what makes them angry and what calms them down. much is made of a mysterious subjective quality, "rapport". I've spoken to police experienced in interviewing and who've received training who say that a far more important relationship quality is "respect". That is to say that the subject of the interview feels they can put their case, they they are being listened to and interviewers are actually interested in what they have to say.
By the time that Mr Lynn was arrested, I'd suspect that police had a detailed profile of him and knew what might anger him and what would cause him to engage and answer questions. I've seen interview videos where the subject is quite hostile and over time the interviewer through empathy and respect, gets the subject to confess. "Rapport" will not do that.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Inside the police investigation over the missing High Country campers

When detectives first arrived at the doorstep of Gregory Lynn’s family home they were just four months into one of the state’s most high-profile missing persons cases.

www.smh.com.au

Behind paywall but it says they searched JetStar headquarters in February 2022

 

[nightrider17]

Borce Ristevski spent quite a long time charged with murder (in Vic) then at the last minute, right before the trial was supposed to start, he went for a plea of manslaughter - which was accepted.
I think probably because the police could not determine how Karen (his wife) was murdered.
I sometimes wonder if similar will happen in this case.

And didn't he initially only get sentenced to 6 years because he did change his plea - I mean thats pathetic

 

[nightrider17]

Borce Ristevski spent quite a long time charged with murder (in Vic) then at the last minute, right before the trial was supposed to start, he went for a plea of manslaughter - which was accepted.
I think probably because the police could not determine how Karen (his wife) was murdered.
I sometimes wonder if similar will happen in this case.

And didn't he initially only get sentenced to 6 years because he did change his plea - I mean thats pathetic. MOO Borce Ristevski manslaughter sentence increased to 13 years

 

[JudgeJudi]

There had been huge media coverage from the time RH and CC disappeared. The media published sketches and CCTV images of the blue vehicle and trailer and Stamper asked the owner to come forward. This was the only vehicle not accounted for.

His wife knew he went camping in the high country on a regular basis. At the very least she must have at least considered the car and trailer looked like her husband's.

Det. Leading S/C Passingham revealed that Lynn and his wife had been caught on tape watching a 60 Minutes program about the missing campers.

Link

On Monday, Passingham revealed Lynn had discussed the program with his wife, Melanie, on 13 November, 2021 - six days after the 60 Minutes program aired.

Link

Two photos were published of his car outside the home. One showed it was blue in 2019 and beige in 2021. A later photo included when it was white after he bought it.

Like everyone else here, I’m interested to know what happened to the trailer. Police believed he sold it on Gumtree, but why did they think that? On the final day of his committal, the court heard he was a POI when he was first spoken to by police on 14 July 2020. They had to know something to form that belief. I think it’s entirely possible they had already installed LDs in his home and car prior to that. If he came home without it, I would have thought his wife would have asked him where it was and he could have given her any excuse. Maybe he left it, even temporarily, at some obscure location and broke it up and buried it or disposed of it elsewhere at some later date.