Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #8

[Kemug]

Hopefully today.

 

[Cedars]

An unbelievably lucky modern day Houdini it would seem…. Who, rather than counting his lucky stars for his purportedly miraculous escape from not just one, but two potential murder weapons, nonetheless had such little confidence that police would believe his account that he sought to destroy all evidence associated with his purportedly Houdini like escape?

I haven't been following closely, was there any attempt to re-create exactly the moves in the two fights - especially the knife part, but also the wrestling with the gun plus knife...?

Maybe the jury are trying to re-enact it back in the jury room?

JMO

 

[TootsieFootsie]

GL must also, apart from being a houdini, believe he had the power to make himself invisible.
He said that he thought he'd gotten away with it because nobody had see him in the area.

My mouth hung open at that. What about the man who saw him looking like he may have been sick, all sweaty.

He seems to have a very high opinion of himself.

 

[JLZ]

From what we are hearing it sounds like the jury might be close enough to unanimous for guilty on one murder and perhaps hung on the other?

Verdicts may not be too far away.

It seems it would be really difficult to say which one is certain, which not so much. GL's actions afterwards convince me of one murder at least. That means I don't believe his story. Then how do I know what really happened?

 

[AussieIan]

The ballistics expert witness, Paul Griffiths, said that to fire Lynn's shotgun, the user would need to manually load the magazine, rack the bolt-action and then kock it before releasing the safety mechanism and then pulling the heavier than average, 3.95 pound trigger.

Griffiths conceded the trajectory of a shot hitting Carol Clay from where the scuffle was alleged to have occurred was plausible but did he concede it was plausible the weapon would go off inadvertently during a struggle? Assuming of course that it was first plausible that Russell Hill had loaded the weapon and factoring into that that it was dark and the weapon was setup for a left handed person? Don't forget that pesky guy rope and loud music intended to annoy either.

The defence would have us believe Russell Hill was a modern day Houdini.

(I was forced to spell a word in the 1st paragraph incorrectly as the correct spelling wasn't acceptable here)

Shots were supposedly fired in the air before the scuffle. Considering that it's not beyond belief it was cocked and ready to fire when the scuffle broke out. The 4kg trigger pull would be irrelevant in the scuffle scenario. The average males grip strength is 46kg. Factor in someone else pulling the opposite direction and 4kg is nothing.

From what I've seen in the case the main difference in the gun being set up for a left handed person is the sights. Also irrelevant in the scuffle scenario.

Again I'm not trying to make an argument for this being the case just verbalising what I would be asking if I was in the juries position and imo the prosecution has left too many questions unanswered.

 

[Puggo]

Greg Lynn jury told to continue deliberations after question over unanimous verdict

A note from the jury read in part: "What happens if we are unable to reach a unanimous decision?"

www.abc.net.au

Similar update to today's Guardian story from ABC.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

I haven't been following closely, was there any attempt to re-create exactly the moves in the two fights - especially the knife part, but also the wrestling with the gun plus knife...?

Maybe the jury are trying to re-enact it back in the jury room?

JMO

Imagine the look of shock on the staffer's face when the jury foreman asks him if they can have the table removed because they need more space to work in.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I believe a truly innocent person would not try to completely obliterate every sign of what happened at the camp site.
Then destroy the bodies to such an extent that all manner of their deaths is hidden, even to forensic scientists.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Shots were supposedly fired in the air before the scuffle. Considering that it's not beyond belief it was cocked and ready to fire when the scuffle broke out. The 4kg trigger pull would be irrelevant in the scuffle scenario. The average males grip strength is 46kg. Factor in someone else pulling the opposite direction and 4kg is nothing.

From what I've seen in the case the main difference in the gun being set up for a left handed person is the sights. Also irrelevant in the scuffle scenario.

Again I'm not trying to make an argument for this being the case just verbalising what I would be asking if I was in the juries position and imo the prosecution has left too many questions unanswered.

Every skerrik of the circumstantial evidence in this case points to a double murder. The only thing supporting anything other than a double murder is Lynn fanciful and ever so convenient story.

Lynn story consists of many unlikely things and for his story to hold up all those unlikely things need to be believed. They are like links in a chain and they all need to stand up or the chain breaks, his story falls over and we are left with a double murder.

The jury may see things differently and only find him guilty of one of the murders. We shall see.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Greg Lynn trial: jury asks question about split verdicts as double murder deliberations enter second week

The jury also asked Croucher to repeat the instruction regarding reaching a unanimous verdict and what happened if it was unable to reach a unanimous decision. He said his direction didn’t mean they must find him guilty of both charges or not guilty of both charges. “You must consider each charge separately”. If they were unable to come to a unanimous verdict, “you would send me a note and I’d discuss it with counsel and answer that question at that point”.

At least the judge has answered that question.
The standard sentence for murder in Victoria is 25 years imprisonment.
As GL is 57 years old, that would effectively be a life sentence.
I can live with that, but can Dann?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It's not looking like there will be a verdict today.

 

[Puggo]

It seems it would be really difficult to say which one is certain, which not so much. GL's actions afterwards convince me of one murder at least. That means I don't believe his story. Then how do I know what really happened?

That's the logical sequence a juror can't ignore IMO too. The extensive and elaborate cover up (which isn't being disputed) has to destroy any credibility in GLs account of the events at the camp-site.

Over analysis of those events is what the defence wants to cast doubt.

MOO.

 

[CyberHound]

Why haul a trailer into the bush?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Greg Lynn jury told to continue deliberations after question over unanimous verdict

A note from the jury read in part: "What happens if we are unable to reach a unanimous decision?"

www.abc.net.au

""Of course, if you did reach a point where you could not unanimously agree on your verdicts, you could send me a note and I could discuss it with counsel and I'll answer it at that point," he told the jury"

That sounds like if they did reach that point finally, then they might not be told to try again.
And the Judge after discussing with counsel would have to decide what would happen.

What's the bet that the Judge receives that note before too long.

 

[SouthAussie]

I'm also certain I read that when the 2 guys were grappling over the gun, Mr Hill was bent backwards.

I haven't read that anywhere. Perhaps you can find the link. (I just looked, and can't see that anywhere.)

If Russell was bent backwards, what did he do ... fire the shotgun over his shoulder, and somehow also at a downwards angle?

I honestly think that IF Carol was shot from the front of the vehicle (highly doubtful imo) the scuffle would have had to have taken place at the front side of the vehicle. Not at the bullbar, not near the guy rope, but to the side. The required angle of fire just doesn't align with Lynn's story.

imo

 

[Cedars]

I believe a truly innocent person would not try to completely obliterate every sign of what happened at the camp site.
Then destroy the bodies to such an extent that all manner of their deaths is hidden, even to forensic scientists.

It's also interesting how both victims alleged died instantly, so GL had no reason to question whether they might survive if he went and got help. No groans or movement?

Most victims of accidental shootings and knife wounds are transported to hospital before officially declared dead.

Did GL have practise assessing whether people who were alive mere moments before, were now dead, with 100% certainty?

JMO

 

[AussieIan]

Every skerrik of the circumstantial evidence in this case points to a double murder. The only thing supporting anything other than a double murder is Lynn fanciful and ever so convenient story.

Lynn story consists of many unlikely things and for his story to hold up all those unlikely things need to be believed. They are like links in a chain and they all need to stand up or the chain breaks, his story falls over and we are left with a double murder.

The jury may see things differently and only find him guilty of one of the murders. We shall see.

Can you list the circumstantial evidence you believe points to a double murder?

Try to remember the judges own instruction to the jury that not believing Lynn just because it's improbable is fundamentally flawed.

What's the saying? Better to let 10 guilty go free than convict 1 innocent man. Some people here would just convict all 11. Unlikely story? Sorry mate life in prison for you!

 

[AussieIan]

That's the logical sequence a juror can't ignore IMO too. The extensive and elaborate cover up (which isn't being disputed) has to destroy any credibility in GLs account of the events at the camp-site.

Over analysis of those events is what the defence wants to cast doubt.

MOO.

If you're convicting someone of murder I'd want over the top analysis. Much better than 'hmm well it's pretty unlikely so....guilty!'

 

[Kemug]

I haven't been following closely, was there any attempt to re-create exactly the moves in the two fights - especially the knife part, but also the wrestling with the gun plus knife...?

Maybe the jury are trying to re-enact it back in the jury room?

JMO

Pardon me, I've only been following this from the very beginning, what two fights?

 

[mam544]

Is there any evidence the knife even existed? Let alone that it is the reason Russell Hill is no longer with us?

Excellent point Mr Hardy.