Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) - #74

[SouthAussie]

I have been wondering if the recordings are even going to be allowed to be used as evidence, or if they are going to be found inadmissible at a trial.

I guess it depends what the authorised use of the listening devices was. If the use was strictly for the disappearance of William, the recordings may be deemed inadmissible at an assault trial (that has nothing to do with William's disappearance).

 

[JLZ]

I wonder how much time was taken up by FFC's attempt to have her criminal charges dealt with under the mental health act?

And in reality, the Crime Commission hearing from which FFC was charged with lying, and subsequently found not guilty of 'deliberately' lying about the wooden spoon assault, took place IIRC in November 2021? That would have been the very latest that FFC knew the exact evidence against her in regard to the alleged wooden spoon assault.. and that was over one year ago. Not enough time to build a defence (or just plead guilty)?

Some may call it hypocrisy. Some may call it working the system. imo.

From an article May 12, 2022:

The charges were mentioned in Parramatta Local Court on Friday, when magistrate Peter Feather listed the mother's section 14 application for hearing on June 30.

The mental health application seeks to have criminal charges dismissed without a conviction or finding of guilt.

The charges against both foster parents were set down for a three-day hearing to start on January 16.

The magistrate was told the prosecution case includes surveillance material.

William's foster parents face 2023 hearing

I think it wouldn't be professionally appropriate for the barrister to go ahead without reading and digesting the police brief. I suspect FFC herself would like the matter heard and out of the way. Sure she could have sped it up by pleading guilty to whatever at the outset and not even talking to a lawyer. I don't say she wants it over at any cost.

 

[deugirtni]

I think it wouldn't be professionally appropriate for the barrister to go ahead without reading and digesting the police brief. I suspect FFC herself would like the matter heard and out of the way. Sure she could have sped it up by pleading guilty to whatever at the outset and not even talking to a lawyer. I don't say she wants it over at any cost.

Surely the FM's lawyer must've had something on which to base the request to have the charges dealt with via the Mental Health Act, or however it is worded? Why would you think the lawyer has not read and digested the police brief yet?

 

[JBowie]

Surely the FM's lawyer must've had something on which to base the request to have the charges dealt with via the Mental Health Act, or however it is worded?

I get the feeling that it's almost de rigeur these days for lawyers to play the mental health card from the get-go.

 

[JLZ]

Surely the FM's lawyer must've had something on which to base the request to have the charges dealt with via the Mental Health Act, or however it is worded? Why would you think the lawyer has not read and digested the police brief yet?

It would help to know when the brief was delivered. Does the DT article say?

 

[Couldbe]

Yes, this listing has the same case number as the court appearance scheduled for Feb 13th, which court date was referenced in a Daily Telegraph article stating the Feb 13th court date was in relation to the 'lying to the crime commission' charge.

Since the article is paywalled, I will adlib: it says MFC, known in court orders by initials 'XX', is also chgd with 'lying to the NSW CC', which case is scheduled for police mention at Sydney's Downing Centre on Feb 13th.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/t...e/news-story/21a07e9a4880ac88827ca39e7f619db7
----
From public Court Schedule:

30 Jan 9:30 am 2022/00014024 R v XX Criminal Local Court Return of Subpoena Unassigned Sydney Downing Centre Downing Centre Crt 4.4 Downing Ctr -
[this Jan 30th appearance is for MFC's charges of lying to the NSW Crime Commission, since it has the same case number as the one on Feb 13th below, which date has been referenced in a news article as noted below]

13 Feb 9:30 am 2022/00014024 R v XX Criminal Local Court Mention (Police) Unassigned Sydney Downing Centre Downing Centre Crt 4.5 Downing Ctr -
[this Feb 13th appearance is for MFC's charges of lying to the NSW Crime Commission as per news article: https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/t...e/news-story/21a07e9a4880ac88827ca39e7f619db7 : therefore it appears the casefile number 2022/00014024 is relating to this case.]

Online Registry - Landing Page

onlineregistry.lawlink.nsw.gov.au

imo

Just wondering if this Hearing (BBM in the above post) is going ahead today?

 

[Warshawski]

I have been wondering if the recordings are even going to be allowed to be used as evidence, or if they are going to be found inadmissible at a trial.

I guess it depends what the authorised use of the listening devices was. If the use was strictly for the disappearance of William, the recordings may be deemed inadmissible at an assault trial (that has nothing to do with William's disappearance).

That is an interesting thought SA.

i would guess that combating ‘verbal / audio’ evidence in a Trial presents it’s own set of challenges & possibly the scenario you’ve posed is being offered up by their Defence.

and similarly would come the rebuttals - what was actually heard; why Is a child acting this way; tbh, where is the line of delineation between ‘what is relevant’ in such an unfortunate & horrible situation.

No child is meant to disappear, and no one should ever have to bear the heartache, despair & destruction that comes from that loss.

For me ‘Answers‘ are so important.

’loss’ is hard to bear, whether it’s of a short term lover, a long term Partner, a Mother or Father, a too early taken child, sibling or friend. … or even for some, it’s their mobile phone & all their contacts !

Recognising individual responses to things is something I’ve tried to work on so please don’t judge that comment as frivolous. ‘reality’ is as its perceived - so the the challenge in the Growth & Healing is to change the ‘perception’ - in all its quirks!

Over the years I’ve come to understand that I’ve worked it out & I’m fine, as are my kids. I still have my moments but I embrace them for their place.

From those times, I also know that I’m amongst people here who’ve experienced hugely challenging personal situations.

I’m not about to make judgment in the case of William, either way, without the evidence to support.

At the same time I’m really appreciative of a forum / friendship group where we can bring things to the table & toss it all around, respectfully.

 

[Detective Willy]

Things still stick out to me after all these years.

The unexplained drive that FFC took around 20-30 minutes before Will was reported missing. The same place where she was reportedly seen acting suspiciously that was never mentioned to Police in the early interviews.

I must also add the inconsistencies in stories and interviews something stinks about this case from the beginning.

 

[Reneemaree88]

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/update-in-william-tyrrell-foster-dads-case-of-allegedly-lying-to-the-nsw-crime-commission/news-story/ad5eec5a992408391ed19e05be83b878

 

[katydid23]

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/update-in-william-tyrrell-foster-dads-case-of-allegedly-lying-to-the-nsw-crime-commission/news-story/ad5eec5a992408391ed19e05be83b878

from the link:
Teams searched rainwater and septic tanks at the property and police divers entered a nearby creek bed.

During the search, officers found pieces of cloth seeming to match the Spider-Man outfit William was wearing when he disappeared and even bone fragments. However, nothing was deemed to be connected to the case.


The writer seems to be trying to make something out of nothing ^^^ in the paragraph above. JMO

 

[Detective Willy]

If William was disposed of in a nearby Creek in September 2014, I wonder if it would be "impossible" to find any remains now 8 years + later.

The weather certainly has a big impact on decomposition and movement of remains.

Consider that Kendall reached temperatures of 45.7% celsius in February 2017 and in the same month received 335mm of rainfall. This is in 1 month out of the 100+ months ago that William went missing.

It seems to me that the Police dropped the ball in the first few hours of this investigation and have been playing catch up ever since.

In terms of "possibilities" of what happened to William, the 2 major theories seem to be:

1) Balcony fall and disposal of body to another location
2) Abduction and murder by paedophile or opportunistic predator

Are there any other theories that have been given significant weight by investigators? What else may have happened?

Has William wandering off been 100% eliminated?

Police issue fresh statement on Tyrrell investigation: ‘Large volume of information’

It has been eight years since William Tyrrell went missing from his foster grandmother’s home.

7news.com.au

 

[Couldbe]

If William was disposed of in a nearby Creek in September 2014, I wonder if it would be "impossible" to find any remains now 8 years + later.

The weather certainly has a big impact on decomposition and movement of remains.

Consider that Kendall reached temperatures of 45.7% celsius in February 2017 and in the same month received 335mm of rainfall. This is in 1 month out of the 100+ months ago that William went missing.

It seems to me that the Police dropped the ball in the first few hours of this investigation and have been playing catch up ever since.

In terms of "possibilities" of what happened to William, the 2 major theories seem to be:

1) Balcony fall and disposal of body to another location
2) Abduction and murder by paedophile or opportunistic predator

Are there any other theories that have been given significant weight by investigators? What else may have happened?

Has William wandering off been 100% eliminated?

Police issue fresh statement on Tyrrell investigation: ‘Large volume of information’

It has been eight years since William Tyrrell went missing from his foster grandmother’s home.

7news.com.au

The Foster Father’s immediate action to bolt when he arrived home has always been an indication to me that he knew more about William’s disappearance prior to his return to Benaroon Drive. He has explained in the Inquest into William’s disappearance that he just had assumptions about what the Foster Mother would have done in her searching before that, so imagine that we have to accept that explanation when wondering why he didn't at that moment want to know more than 'he was just here 5 minutes ago' from the Foster Mother.

He has not been named as a poi, so we have to respect that.

 

[InFocus]

The Foster Father’s immediate action to bolt when he arrived home has always been an indication to me that he knew more about William’s disappearance prior to his return to Benaroon Drive. He has explained in the Inquest into William’s disappearance that he just had assumptions about what the Foster Mother would have done in her searching before that, so imagine that we have to accept that explanation when wondering why he didn't at that moment want to know more than 'he was just here 5 minutes ago' from the Foster Mother.

He has not been named as a poi, so we have to respect that.

For years 10:30 am was the time given he vanished, MFC arrives home 10:35 am.

Mysteriously, as you read news articles years later that time, 10:30am was moved back, in some cases magically to around 10:15 am. 20 minutes becomes a problem.

Time has never been the friend of the carers in this case. If you want to start moving times around, then the story starts to unravel.

'Was William with you?' comment by FFC, which the MFC brushed aside as being a silly thing to suggest doesn't stack up if the official version of events moves back from 10:30 am. As William would've already been missing with MFC not having yet picked up the newspapers from the general store. So you can't have it both ways when it comes to the times.

Speaking of times; one of the most important, overlooked, aspects of the case is what caused police officer Wendy Hudson to leave the tennis courts prior to 10am? Mr. Donoghue is adamant that the phone call she took that morning resulted in her leaving the tennis center, why?

It's my opinion that FFC is not the main POI, something that the current task force has wrong. I will never subscribe to the theory that William fell from a balcony. The FFC used her mum's car for a very important purpose, but it was never to remove William. That reason (purpose) is a key question she never answered in the 000 call, which I feel relates to why she used her mum's car.

It's my opinion that no abduction ever took place at 48 Benaroon Drive. 8 years on, that scenario can be blown out of the water. Not a single shred of evidence has ever been presented to support that theory. No cars were ever sighted parked in the street by any other neighbor. Their evidence has to be given more weight than that of FFC's version of seeing cars parked. Spedding, Savage, Abbott, Jones, have all been thrown under the bus, not a single piece of evidence points to any of them.

Thankfully, William's sister is now at an age now where she can make decisions for herself.

 

[iiiii's]

For years 10:30 am was the time given he vanished, MFC arrives home 10:35 am.

Mysteriously, as you read news articles years later that time, 10:30am was moved back, in some cases magically to around 10:15 am. 20 minutes becomes a problem.

Time has never been the friend of the carers in this case. If you want to start moving times around, then the story starts to unravel.

'Was William with you?' comment by FFC, which the MFC brushed aside as being a silly thing to suggest doesn't stack up if the official version of events moves back from 10:30 am. As William would've already been missing with MFC not having yet picked up the newspapers from the general store. So you can't have it both ways when it comes to the times.

Speaking of times; one of the most important, overlooked, aspects of the case is what caused police officer Wendy Hudson to leave the tennis courts prior to 10am? Mr. Donoghue is adamant that the phone call she took that morning resulted in her leaving the tennis center, why?

It's my opinion that FFC is not the main POI, something that the current task force has wrong. I will never subscribe to the theory that William fell from a balcony. The FFC used her mum's car for a very important purpose, but it was never to remove William. That reason (purpose) is a key question she never answered in the 000 call, which I feel relates to why she used her mum's car.

It's my opinion that no abduction ever took place at 48 Benaroon Drive. 8 years on, that scenario can be blown out of the water. Not a single shred of evidence has ever been presented to support that theory. No cars were ever sighted parked in the street by any other neighbor. Their evidence has to be given more weight than that of FFC's version of seeing cars parked. Spedding, Savage, Abbott, Jones, have all been thrown under the bus, not a single piece of evidence points to any of them.

Thankfully, William's sister is now at an age now where she can make decisions for herself.

The timeline was guessed at around 10.30 initially. The investigators on the Strikeforce adjusted the time due to the FFFC's sequence of events that morning moving backwards from the time the MFFC arrived home around 10.35 and the initial contact with a neighbor outside of the house at 10.40. My understanding is that all of the MFFC's movements can be accounted for, I am assuming, receipts, phone tower pings, possibly computer readout from his car, other cameras along the route he took, phonecalls and meetings whilst out, shop assistant witnesses. As yet his timeline and movements have not been in doubt.

I do believe the FFFC's story somewhat unravels but not her partner's.
I'm interested in your theory as to why you rule out a balcony fall and disposal. If not an abduction what are you theorising?
I agree that it seems nothing has placed any of the well publicised former POI's at the scene.

 

[Couldbe]

The timeline was guessed at around 10.30 initially. The investigators on the Strikeforce adjusted the time due to the FFFC's sequence of events that morning moving backwards from the time the MFFC arrived home around 10.35 and the initial contact with a neighbor outside of the house at 10.40. My understanding is that all of the MFFC's movements can be accounted for, I am assuming, receipts, phone tower pings, possibly computer readout from his car, other cameras along the route he took, phonecalls and meetings whilst out, shop assistant witnesses. As yet his timeline and movements have not been in doubt.

I do believe the FFFC's story somewhat unravels but not her partner's.
I'm interested in your theory as to why you rule out a balcony fall and disposal. If not an abduction what are you theorising?
I agree that it seems nothing has placed any of the well publicised former POI's at the scene.

iiii's, according to this Timeline:
Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52
“08:40 : MFC leaves for Lakewood( from CO book suggested he left around 08:40 by CCTV @ the tennis club )
08:55 - 09:00 : MFC leaves Benaroon drive ( evidence from inquest evidence )”.

.....There seems to be a discrepancy in the recorded movements of the FMFC around his departure from 48 Benaroon Drive. Would you be able to clarify in connection with those times...if you know please?

William Tyrrell: how new evidence revived the case and triggered a fresh search effort
“William’s foster father had left the home at 9.30am to drive out of the town to find better mobile reception for a Skype call and to fill a script at a chemist – actions which have been verified by police.”

 

[Detective Willy]

My major hope that this will be resolved is that there is a “smoking gun” in the background.

Something that the current Police Investigators know that has been intentionally held back from the Public.

Most high profile murder cases that are solved many years later have the major pieces of evidence held back from the public (or dummy info released). Otherwise DNA evidence proves who the perpetrator is which I don’t think is applicable here.

The fact Police are so adamant to continue chasing this for William indicates they feel they can prove who did this.

Also the fact that the coroner has given them extra time shows there must be more to it that we as the general public don’t know (yet).

Otherwise they would be putting the cue in the rack IMO.

 

[iiiii's]

iiii's, according to this Timeline:
Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52
“08:40 : MFC leaves for Lakewood( from CO book suggested he left around 08:40 by CCTV @ the tennis club )
08:55 - 09:00 : MFC leaves Benaroon drive ( evidence from inquest evidence )”.

.....There seems to be a discrepancy in the recorded movements of the FMFC around his departure from 48 Benaroon Drive. Would you be able to clarify in connection with those times...if you know please?

William Tyrrell: how new evidence revived the case and triggered a fresh search effort
“William’s foster father had left the home at 9.30am to drive out of the town to find better mobile reception for a Skype call and to fill a script at a chemist – actions which have been verified by police.”

I'm sorry I haven't read CO's book but at times info from her book has been shared on the thread and she seems to be the only reference for this "new" info which is out of sync with what we have understood about the case so far from many other sources. Also, anecdotally I guess, I met someone else who was sitting in the journalist's separate room, CO was not even there most of the time, nor did I see her in the public area while the MFC gave evidence. So take that how you will. I'll personally go with the evidence that was publically submitted at the inquest until something more official comes along to contradict it, and also notes from people that were actually in attendance at the inquest. MOO

As a side note, I've been watching Janet King the series and getting quite a good feel for the DPP, them working with police etc. in NSW. Although fiction, some really interesting scenarios have come up in the cases that echo situations I have seen play out in the papers, so it might be somewhat helpful...

 

[iiiii's]

RSBM

It's my opinion that FFC is not the main POI, something that the current task force has wrong. I will never subscribe to the theory that William fell from a balcony. The FFC used her mum's car for a very important purpose, but it was never to remove William. That reason (purpose) is a key question she never answered in the 000 call, which I feel relates to why she used her mum's car.

So 2 questions she didn't answer were, Was he wearing shoes and Do you know where he's gone? If she didn't remove him, what do you think the purpose was of the car trip?

 

[InFocus]

So 2 questions she didn't answer were, Was he wearing shoes and Do you know where he's gone? If she didn't remove him, what do you think the purpose was of the car trip?

You worked out my cryptic clue re the shoes, nice one iiiii"s

I theorize that's why FFC drove down Batar Creek Rd, because the shoes were still left on the deck when he 'allegedly' disappeared. To fit the abduction theory, those shoes can't be still at the house. Deliberately avoids answering the question in 000 call because it's all too 'roar (sic)'

I think all the clues are right there in front of everyone, but does the government want this case solved? It's like a jigsaw puzzle, some of the pieces won't fit (red-herrings-misdirection) Even the mention of hearing a child's scream as she was walking down Benaroon Drive. I think that scream did occur, but not in that context.

Detectives just need to look outside the box (direction-wise) and you get very close to solving what truly happened that morning. I'm not saying anymore. It's just my theory, whether I'm right, that is $1m question; that's what I'm currently working on in-depth and have been for 3 years.
I also believe there's one very important place that's never been investigated/searched. Trust me, I've looked through dozens of articles/documents and this place sticks out like dog's nuts (it has been mentioned once by someone very close to this case and only once), proximity-wise. It fits like a glove.

I plan to approach the task force soon with my research/findings and reveal that place to Mr. Laidlaw.

Perhaps I can be like that Netflix doco Don't Fk With Cats and finally get justice for William

 

[musicaljoke]

You worked out my cryptic clue re the shoes, nice one iiiii"s

I theorize that's why FFC drove down Batar Creek Rd, because the shoes were still left on the deck when he 'allegedly' disappeared. To fit the abduction theory, those shoes can't be still at the house. Deliberately avoids answering the question in 000 call because it's all too 'roar (sic)'

I think all the clues are right there in front of everyone, but does the government want this case solved? It's like a jigsaw puzzle, some of the pieces won't fit (red-herrings-misdirection) Even the mention of hearing a child's scream as she was walking down Benaroon Drive. I think that scream did occur, but not in that context.

Detectives just need to look outside the box (direction-wise) and you get very close to solving what truly happened that morning. I'm not saying anymore. It's just my theory, whether I'm right, that is $1m question; that's what I'm currently working on in-depth and have been for 3 years.
I also believe there's one very important place that's never been investigated/searched. Trust me, I've looked through dozens of articles/documents and this place sticks out like dog's nuts (it has been mentioned once by someone very close to this case and only once), proximity-wise. It fits like a glove.

I plan to approach the task force soon with my research/findings and reveal that place to Mr. Laidlaw.

Perhaps I can be like that Netflix doco Don't Fk With Cats and finally get justice for William

Does the government want this solved, you ask? I do wish you well in your quest to find justice for William, but blaming the long wait for answers on a government conspiracy is not likely a productive or useful premise.