Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) - #75

[Couldbe]

For sure, someone, unprepared, would get quite a shock with what they encountered when handling a dead body .... but it doesn't stop them continuing to dispose of it! MOO

 

[SLouTh]

There is another way to identify if William was moved, besides blood DNA evidence ….. (resulting in the “interfering with a corpse“ charge“ but that evidence would of course help!)

Were there witness/es that saw some thing happen in the front yard of 48 Benaroon that morning ……???? Under the high verandah???

Maybe they couldn't see William’s body but could see enough to know that something serious had happened … like a panicked scene …

Remember we don’t know very much of the neighbor timelines for earlier that morning ….

If you add this possible witness testimony with another separate witness that saw FM down at Batar Creek that morning, possibly carrying something etc and disposing of it …

And you factor in the drive that she admitted to…. ( and possibly the timeline fits)

You would end up with circumstantial evidence …..

So what neighbours had the best line of vision that am??? Could have even been someone driving past etc …



—————
Also, the other bodily fluid specific to a catastrophic head injury, (as the media are now alleging that was cause of death), could be Cerebrospinal Fluid …. Did Police find evidence of this fluid??

ALL MOOOOO

 

[SouthAussie]

.
" ..... you can listen to Hans Rupp giving his opinion in Caroline Overington's Nowhere Child podcast - Episode 4 "Person Of Interest".
He did consider the foster parents could be involved however there was no evidence to support that, he went on to say he didn't think any member of the family was involved at all."
Thread 67, post 657

"CO's interview with Hans Rupp .......
A forensic search of FGM's house was done three days after William disappeared.
There had been forensic testing of William's foster nana's car, and of the new four wheel drive.
Foster parents had surrendered computers and phones for forensic testing."
Thread 73, post 110

" .... the theory William may have died after falling from a balcony at the house in Kendall was investigated back in 2016."
Former lead detective reveals police bugged car of William Tyrrell's foster-parents

"Hans Rupp also investigated the balcony theory."
Thread 70, post 870
.

 

[SLouTh]

.
" ..... you can listen to Hans Rupp giving his opinion in Caroline Overington's Nowhere Child podcast - Episode 4 "Person Of Interest".
He did consider the foster parents could be involved however there was no evidence to support that, he went on to say he didn't think any member of the family was involved at all."
Thread 67, post 657

"CO's interview with Hans Rupp .......
A forensic search of FGM's house was done three days after William disappeared.
There had been forensic testing of William's foster nana's car, and of the new four wheel drive.
Foster parents had surrendered computers and phones for forensic testing."
Thread 73, post 110

" .... the theory William may have died after falling from a balcony at the house in Kendall was investigated back in 2016."
Former lead detective reveals police bugged car of William Tyrrell's foster-parents

"Hans Rupp also investigated the balcony theory."
Thread 70, post 870
.

I wonder what Rupp would say now if he was re-interviewed ???

By the time The Inquest rolled around Craddock was saying this:

Mr Craddock said there was no doubt William's biological parents were in Sydney the day he disappeared.

"Investigators haven't positively drawn the conclusion that no relative or associate was involved in William's disappearance," he said.

Coroner hears from William Tyrrell's carer | Blue Mountains Gazette | Katoomba, NSW

I do think that Police needed to back to the beginning of the investigation, and re look at everything … and I do think it is ok to admit you may have gotten in wrong, in any context ….not just this case …. But JMO …

 

[katydid23]

She started out by saying though that she pulled over to let it pass........ But then says she pulled over because she had her head out the window looking for William. Am I reading this incorrectly?

foster mother tells investigators as she drove around looking for William, she saw a large truck coming down the road and pulled over to let it pass.

I think both of those things could be true at the same time.

She was driving slow, looking out the window, listening for William. She sees a big truck coming fast, and pulls over because it is the safe thing to do AND because she is moving slow to look out the window.

I've done the same when my puppy kept digging under the fence to escape. I'd drive with window down and call him, listening as I drove, and would pull over for the fast drivers behind me.

 

[Dannywood]

The heart stops pumping when someone dies, hence you only actively bleed when you are alive. Blood of course can drip off or pool somewhere after death. I’m not sure you’re understanding the original conversation l was having with someone else. The discussion being - if blood is found (small drops possibly) can it be tested and determined whether a person was alive or dead? The answer is no it cannot. Again only an alive person actively bleeds so it’s just science that tells us that blood came from someone who was alive at that time. Again, traces of either urine, saliva etc does not determine someone died. The only thing that could prove that would be a large amount of Williams blood or the fluids the body expels days to weeks after death. Either way we are getting so far down this hypothetical road! We don’t know anything was found in the car let Williams blood.

That's not correct.
There are ways to test if drops of blood came from an alive or deceased person and that's one of the ways that forensic teams establish time of death and movement of bodies before and after death.

Urine or defacation or saliva tissue in a boot would certainly be considered circumstantial evidence that someone moved a body after death, IMO.

 

[LolaAngelina]

That's not correct.
There are ways to test if drops of blood came from an alive or deceased person and that's one of the ways that forensic teams establish time of death and movement of bodies before and after death.

Urine or defacation or saliva tissue in a boot would certainly be considered circumstantial evidence that someone moved a body after death, IMO.

Can you provide a link to that fact? They can tell how long blood has been there (or roundabouts). There’s no such test that determines whether blood is from a dead or alive person. I mean dead people don’t actively bleed so‍

 

[katydid23]

I'm sure you're right, but maybe perverting the course of justice is the charge the police are actually most interested in and confident about proving?

IF they found his body, they'd be going for murder charges, not messing with a corpse. JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I wonder what Rupp would say now if he was re-interviewed ???

By the time The Inquest rolled around Craddock was saying this:

Mr Craddock said there was no doubt William's biological parents were in Sydney the day he disappeared.

"Investigators haven't positively drawn the conclusion that no relative or associate was involved in William's disappearance," he said.

Coroner hears from William Tyrrell's carer | Blue Mountains Gazette | Katoomba, NSW

I do think that Police needed to back to the beginning of the investigation, and re look at everything … and I do think it is ok to admit you may have gotten in wrong, in any context ….not just this case …. But JMO …

Just wanted to point out how much investigation had gone into the balcony theory before, when the case was much fresher.
Forensics were done, when the case was brand new.

Never a problem for it to be reinvestigated (discreetly), other than the fact that Lonergan is NOT fresh eyes - having been on the case since its inception (Link). And is likely to have his own preconceived theories. imo

 

[katydid23]

That's not correct.
There are ways to test if drops of blood came from an alive or deceased person and that's one of the ways that forensic teams establish time of death and movement of bodies before and after death.

But they have never found any blood from William. Not when the house and yard was first searched----nor when they did the big recent search.

Urine or defacation or saliva tissue in a boot would certainly be considered circumstantial evidence that someone moved a body after death, IMO.

They never found any of the above----not when they first searched the vehicles the first time, nor the last time.

 

[katydid23]

Disagree. The new team seem very strategic. The foster mother is likely still under surveillance. They're not going to blow this. JMO

If she is not guilty of harming William, they already did blow this. JMO

 

[Dannywood]

Can you provide a link to that fact? They can tell how long blood has been there (or roundabouts). There’s no such test that determines whether blood is from a dead or alive person. I mean dead people don’t actively bleed so‍

I already provided a link to a peer reviewed study about it.
Here's another one focusing on the microscopic examination of blood - Estimation of time since death from morphological changes in red blood cells of human cadaver: An autopsy-based study | Journal of Indian Academy of Forensic Medicine know it's complex but hopefully it will assist in understanding.

To summarise, microscopic examination of the blood sample can provide information about its cellular composition and morphology. Certain changes, such as the presence of degraded or lysed red blood cells, can suggest the blood is from a deceased person.
There's also things like Potassium levels: After death, the potassium levels in the blood increase. By analysing the concentration of potassium in the blood sample, forensics can estimate time of death.
Also, the levels of certain enzymes, such as hypoxanthine, can increase over time. By analysing these biochemical changes in the blood sample, time of death can be estimated.

 

[drsleuth]

That's not correct.
There are ways to test if drops of blood came from an alive or deceased person and that's one of the ways that forensic teams establish time of death and movement of bodies before and after death.

Urine or defacation or saliva tissue in a boot would certainly be considered circumstantial evidence that someone moved a body after death, IMO.

BBM : How exactly do they establish time of death from a drop of blood ( with no body of course ) ?

 

[Dannywood]

But they have never found any blood from William. Not when the house and yard was first searched----nor when they did the big recent search.

They never found any of the above----not when they first searched the vehicles the first time, nor the last time.

Have you got a link to show an official saying that they did not discover those things the first and last time?

 

[kiwi50]

Maybe it was not a "random" abducter & maybe they / them weren't just lurking , but watching ( maybe from the Miller's house ) & saw an opportunity? Who knows what the FGM may have told people about the FF visiting? It was known in the community that she had grandchildren / foster grand children ( eg from the xmas party they had in the street prior ).

In my eyes, the FFC coming across a dead William & the shock you would be in ( police are alleging an accident & than cover up, not murder ) , than to immediately hatching a plan to dispose of him (unbeknown to the FFG & W's sister) , coming back , searching , calling cops & than go retrieve William from where she put him some days later & re-locate him , all while the place was crawling with cops, SES & everyone else searching & him never to be found?.......seems implausible to me IMO

She'd surely win any game of hide -n -seek..............if true

And an Oscar for her acting skills, if she was able to fool not only her husband, mother and best friend, and many of the NSW police hierarchy.

 

[LolaAngelina]

I already provided a link to a peer reviewed study about it.
Here's another one focusing on the microscopic examination of blood - https://acspublisher.com/journals/index.php/jiafm/article/download/7428/6512I know it's complex but hopefully it will assist in understanding.

To summarise, microscopic examination of the blood sample can provide information about its cellular composition and morphology. Certain changes, such as the presence of degraded or lysed red blood cells, can suggest the blood is from a deceased person.
There's also things like Potassium levels: After death, the potassium levels in the blood increase. By analysing the concentration of potassium in the blood sample, forensics can estimate time of death.
Also, he levels of certain enzymes, such as hypoxanthine, can increase over time. By analysing these biochemical changes in the blood sample, time of death can be estimated.

I can’t access that link? 404 not found

 

[SouthAussie]

If I did it though, Jubelin is exactly the type of police I’d want on it, running around after likely suspects who actually had nothing to do with it, and doing it illegally so he ends up the only person convicted of a crime in the end and is throw off the case and the force as well.

Hardly a shining example of great policing.

Jubes resigned in May 2019, Fuller made these comments in August 2019 (despite his 2021 comment about 'a bit of a mess' - which could actually mean anything at all - overwhelming records, too many POIs, an initial potential crime scene that was not contained, people initially being let in and out of the street for about a week before it was cordoned off, etc etc).


"Speaking for the first time since Mr Jubelin was charged with breaching the Surveillance Devices Act in the Tyrrell case, Comissioner Fuller said he “would shake his hand and thank him” for his work if he saw him on the street.

“He was a dedicated police officer and he did a lot of charity work and he did wonderful things for victims of homicides and that shouldn’t be forgotten because of the matter that’s before the courts,” Commissioner Fuller said at the official opening of the new police station at Mount Druitt.

“If I saw him I would certainly stop, I’d shake his hand and thank him for what he did,” he said.

“He’s a good person, now that matter before the court will play its part but that won’t change my opinion of him as a quality police officer,” Mr Fuller said."

Thread 49, post 467 (not paywalled at the time)

But here is a unpaywalled excerpt still live on the internet .... NSW Police Commissioner Mick Fuller says

 

[LolaAngelina]

It's not obvious. Blood can and does leave a body after someone is already deceased and as someone is dying there's changes in their pathology.

And there's several ways to test it. For one, the pH in blood immediately changes upon death. Blood also changes colour after death. Coagulation is different in blood after death.

Decomposition starts instantly upon death. Maybe you're confusing decomposition with putrefaction. Putrefaction takes days, but that's the last stage of the decomposition process.

Biochemistry Changes That Occur after Death: Potential Markers for Determining Post-Mortem Interval

Death is likely to result in very extensive biochemical changes in all body tissues due to lack of circulating oxygen, altered enzymatic reactions, cellular degradation, and cessation of anabolic production of metabolites. These biochemical changes may ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Most people expel urine and saliva and defecate immediately upon death. They wouldn't just be looking for blood. They'd be looking for any tissue with Williams DNA, IMO

This article is about changes in blood WITHIN the body after death. To make it a bit more clearer, here’s an example of what the discussion was about. William falls over inside the home, hits his head and leaves blood on the carpet. He dies almost immediately and fm puts him in the boot of the car, where there is also blood left. If forensics take a sample of the blood in the house and a sample from the boot, there would be no difference between those samples. There is no test that says he was alive in this sample and dead in this one.

 

[drsleuth]

I already provided a link to a peer reviewed study about it. I know it's complex but hopefully it will assist in understanding.

The link you provided talks about the blood pH in animal corpses & blood from rats & humans stored in vitro ( glass )

What is being talked about here , hypothetically, is blood in a crime scene. VERY different.

From your link

Biochemistry Changes That Occur after Death: Potential Markers for Determining Post-Mortem Interval

Death is likely to result in very extensive biochemical changes in all body tissues due to lack of circulating oxygen, altered enzymatic reactions, cellular degradation, and cessation of anabolic production of metabolites. These biochemical changes may ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

were examined post-mortem over a 96 hour period in blood taken from animal corpses (rat and pig) and blood from rats and humans stored in vitro. The pH and the concentration of all six metabolites changed post-mortem but the extent and rate of change varied. Blood pH in corpses fell from 7.4 to 5.1. Concentrations of hypoxanthine, ammonia, NADH and formic acid all increased with time and these metabolites may be potential markers for post-mortem interval. The concentration of lactate increased and then remained at an elevated level and changes in the concentration were different in the rat compared to the human and pig. This is the first systematic study of multiple metabolic changes post-mortem and demonstrates the nature and extent of the changes that occur, in addition to identifying potential markers for estimating post-mortem interval.

 

[Dannywood]

BBM : How exactly do they establish time of death from a drop of blood ( with no body of course ) ?

I linked it above. Happy reading, it's very interesting