Autopsy

[momto3kids]

I haven't read everything here, so maybe you all have already gone through this...but what about this scenario:
She goes out for a run. Witness sees her before getting to Lilly Atkins. Someone said in an affidavit that she often varied her route, so maybe this day she heads up Lilly Atkins. Someone grabs her. Maybe he has a gun or a knife, makes her start taking off clothes. Naturally, being modest she starts with socks and shoes. As she gets to the sports bra, he starts to make a move and decides she has to struggle. He drops gun or knife in struggle, strangles her. Dumps her off Fielding. Maybe keeps shoes as a souvineer (the way serial killers do)--or they are at the initial attack site.

It seems to me that if the police found her socks, shoes, clothes, earring at her house, they'd have enough evidende to have arrested Brad. But it's been three months, no arrest, not even officially named as a suspect.

Police motive for saying not random would be to keep people calm, and keep the very high safety record of the city (which might translate into salary, economics etc). Or to throw real killer off, as someone else mentioned. Or they could mean she was in fact 'targeted', but not necessarily by someone she knew...might be semantics between 'random' and 'targeted'.

If Killer not BC, he's at least smart enough not to do it again, at least in this area, because right now it's completely pinned on BC at least in public view, but another crime would exonerate BC and turn attention to a real killer...

Or maybe I just watch too many crime tv shows : )

To add to SG reasons...
BC has NC diamond necklace. per BC
NC never was seen without it. per HP
She always wore it jogging. per HP
Diamond ring I think is at jewelers. per BC
NC would fight like HELL if attacked. per HP
Motive is? Not robbery. Not rape? No motive by a stranger IMO

 

[SleuthyGal]

NC-Mom, You're citing 'could haves' based on personal examples/experiences, opinions and feelings, and I'm only looking at 'what is known so far in this case.' I'm trying to stay away from speculation as much as I can because I'm most interested in the salient facts of this case.

 

[chauncey7381]

Drive to Chapel Hill if you don't like the published Autopsy report

WOW! Eye believe, thanks for your well thought out scenario.
Question. Have you viewed the full autopsy report in Chapel Hill?

I believe Nancy went running that morning too. I also believe she was either attacked on the trails, perhaps met someone she knew while running, got in their car, something very, very bad went down, or may have actually been running on Fielding Drive where the construction is and well you know....

Because there were no notable marks of self defense,no signs of subtle trauma, I'm of the opinion she was the victim of two attackers. The assault was quick, thorough and deadly. Clothes stripped not to leave behind any evidence. She was restrained, one watched out, while another strangled her. Two against one.

I think she was more than likely manually strangled, hence the lack of ligature marks around her neck. The discoloration of the strap muscles and congestion of the tissues on the left side of neck supports your theory that she was attacked/strangled from behind by a right handed person. The fracture of the hyoid bone on the right side indicates a good amount of force/pressure was exerted there. I think the linear mark was from a small hand held tool/metal object/coat hanger type wire held against her throat that left that mark.

The dirt, yes, she could have gone down on her left knee. I do hope they test the dirt to determine if its the same dirt at the location where they found her. I feel like if the dirt was from the where she was found, then I would think dirt would have been found elsewhere on her body. Caked dirt was only noted on her left leg, you gotta wonder if the her clothes and shoes had mud on them too.

Thanks for your observations and comments.

 

[shack]

WOW! Eye believe, thanks for your well thought out scenario.
Question. Have you viewed the full autopsy report in Chapel Hill?

I believe Nancy went running that morning too. I also believe she was either attacked on the trails, perhaps met someone she knew while running, got in their car, something very, very bad went down, or may have actually been running on Fielding Drive where the construction is and well you know....

Because there were no notable marks of self defense,no signs of subtle trauma, I'm of the opinion she was the victim of two attackers. The assault was quick, thorough and deadly. Clothes stripped not to leave behind any evidence. She was restrained, one watched out, while another strangled her. Two against one.

I think she was more than likely manually strangled, hence the lack of ligature marks around her neck. The discoloration of the strap muscles and congestion of the tissues on the left side of neck supports your theory that she was attacked/strangled from behind by a right handed person. The fracture of the hyoid bone on the right side indicates a good amount of force/pressure was exerted there. I think the linear mark was from a small hand held tool/metal object/coat hanger type wire held against her throat that left that mark.

The dirt, yes, she could have gone down on her left knee. I do hope they test the dirt to determine if its the same dirt at the location where they found her. I feel like if the dirt was from the where she was found, then I would think dirt would have been found elsewhere on her body. Caked dirt was only noted on her left leg, you gotta wonder if the her clothes and shoes had mud on them too.

Thanks for your observations and comments.

Well as of now we really don't know anything about her clothes other than they weren't on her. Did LE find them at the scene? LE hasn't said.

 

[Ruflossn]

Well as of now we really don't know anything about her clothes other than they weren't on her. Did LE find them at the scene? LE hasn't said.

Has it ever been confirmed whether or not Nancy was a victim of sexual assault? Sometimes a victim can be a victim of sexual assault but, LE (for very good reasons) will not release that info.

 

[Maja]

Has it ever been confirmed whether or not Nancy was a victim of sexual assault? Sometimes a victim can be a victim of sexual assault but, LE (for very good reasons) will not release that info.

As I understand the autopsy report revealed there was no sign of sexual trama or activity prior to NCs murder.

 

[chauncey7381]

Well as of now we really don't know anything about her clothes other than they weren't on her. Did LE find them at the scene? LE hasn't said.

Nope they haven't, I think not because of the items listed on the search warrant for the Coopers home. I have wondered about the green plastic a good bit and if some was found on her body. I think the perp(s) knew to leave her exposed to induce decomposition and to strip her to remove any of their fibers, DNA, trace evidence.

 

[chauncey7381]

Has it ever been confirmed whether or not Nancy was a victim of sexual assault? Sometimes a victim can be a victim of sexual assault but, LE (for very good reasons) will not release that info.

The autopsy stated there were no signs of sexual trauma, a rape kit with swabs etc was turned over to LE. We don't know those results.

 

[ncsu95]

The autopsy stated there were no signs of sexual trauma, a rape kit with swabs etc was turned over to LE. We don't know those results.

There was also a large bug infestation in her genitals. How accurate can a rape kit be in that circumstance (other than lack of trauma).

 

[shack]

As I understand the autopsy report revealed there was no sign of sexual trama or activity prior to NCs murder.

As I understand the autopsy report said external genitalia shows considerable insect activity and some darkening no obvious sign of trama. Would there be any obvious sign if she wasn't torn ? Could the darkening be bruising? A rape kit was done. Maybe it will show something.

 

[SleuthyGal]

No bruising of her cervix, which was intact. That's one indication of no sexual assault/rape.

 

[ncsu95]

No bruising of her cervix, which was intact. That's one indication of no sexual assault/rape.

What if she didn't fight it?

 

[justthinking2008]

No bruising of her cervix, which was intact. That's one indication of no sexual assault/rape.

Just curious, does the cervix always get bruised during sexual activity? Is it possible someone violated her sexually and did not bruise her? What I am thinking is maybe someone could have raped her that was not, er, ummm, ahh that sizable, and left no trace of damage to her. I have read that sometimes men who are anatomically size challenged will rape to prove masculinity. Anyway, is it possible does anyone know.

 

[jumpstreet]

Just a couple of thoughts on the responses offered to NC_Mom_Next_Door's theory (which, to me, seems as reasonable as the next one, given all the things we [don't] know in this case) :

1. No one saw Nancy being attacked.

Shouldn't this read "no one that we know of saw NC being attacked"?...

Prior to a few weeks ago, we didn't think anyone had reported seeing NC running that day either. For all we know, a large number of folks may have reported seeing "someone that looked like NC being attacked", and CPD simply doesn't consider it to be (yet) "confirmed", or they haven't fully follow-up with the reports yet, etc.

I don't think it's conclusive at all that "no one saw NC being attacked"...

2. No one heard anyone screaming or yelling.

No one that we know of ...heard anyone screaming or yelling.

3. No evidence has been released that suggests the 'dump site' was the site she was killed; she was likely killed elsewhere.

Doesn't mean no evidence was there though, right? LE seems to intentionally be playing it close to the vest here. If evidence was found that would suggest the dump site was the location of the crime, would you expect LE to have released it to the public by now, or... keep it undisclosed?

4. No evidence has been presented (or released) that any of Nancy's other clothes were found anywhere (so to assume they were left near her body, is not a valid assumption).

Seems to me, it's just as valid to assume other clothes were found near the discovery site, as it is to assume not. Would you have expected LE to have released this information to the public by now if there were clothes found near the discovery site? Or... would they keep this information undisclosed, due to the nature of the "active/ongoing" investigation?

5. No cars with a panicked/screaming woman were seen.

5. No cars with a panicked/screaming woman were seen that we know of.
[ Again, lots of people may very well have reported this information... ]

6. It was light outside by the time Nancy allegedly left to go running.

... and (per above), lots of people may have very well seen these things collaborating NC_Mom_Next_Door's theory.

7. She was found at the end of a street, in a new cul-de-sac, that winds off of a very busy road (Holly Springs Rd). There were people out and about and cars on that road. She was not in some remote part of town...Lochmere is a very populated area.

... and (per above), some of these people may very well have seen things, that we're not aware of.

8. There were no other injuries other than her being strangled. No signs of fighting, no other bruises, nothing else noted, that the mark on her throat and the bug activity.

Fair point.

9. The police dept released a statement...twice...that this was not a 'random' crime. That indicates that Nancy knew her attacker.

I would say it 'implies' this. I believe CPD actually said something along the lines of they "did not believe it to be a random crime". Doesn't mean it wasn't... just that they did not (happen) to believe it was.

When was the last time they issued that statement I wonder?.. I think it was months ago, right?... Lots may have changed since then with what they know now vs what they knew then!

 

[SleuthyGal]

Just curious, does the cervix always get bruised during sexual activity? Is it possible someone violated her sexually and did not bruise her? What I am thinking is maybe someone could have raped her that was not, er, ummm, ahh that sizable, and left no trace of damage to her. I have read that sometimes men who are anatomically size challenged will rape to prove masculinity. Anyway, is it possible does anyone know.

Sounds like a good question for the M.E. or someone with medical background in this area. I'm just posting what I read in the report.

 

[justthinking2008]

SG,

Got the answer to the question I posed above. It is possible to be raped with no damage to cervix. I asked a medical professional today, there are multiple factors to consider, but size is definitely an issue in damage as are other factors such as whether or not she fought off the attacker or went with the attack. Probably a moot point now, but for future reference it is possible.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Thanks for following up on that, JT2008!

 

[CARYISHOME]

So sorry if this has been discussed before, but, I was reading Sleuthy Gal's excellent autopsy post on the evidence thread and had a couple of questions about the autopsy. First, what is the significance of drying fingers on the right hand? Second, what is the significance of the legs being tanned on the lower legs? What causes these to be worthy of notation in an autopsy?