Autopsy

[SleuthyGal]

Nancy was 70 inches according to the autopsy. So that is 5'10"...very tall. Someone (let's say a female for the moment) attacking her would need to be tall/strong enough to take her on, get to her neck and, since Nancy was very fit and a runner fully capable of completing a half-marathon, they would probably need to be physically fit at least to a degree where Nancy could not outrun or 'out fight' them. This is assuming the person who attacked Nancy did not have a weapon (like a gun or knife) and only had their own hands and their own strength with which to attack and kill. They might have also had the element of surprise on their side, which would be a benefit if they were not quite as tall or didn't have the same strength.

Therefore if a female attacked Nancy then I believe it had to probably be someone who is also fairly tall, has some physical strength and/or the assistance of at least one other person (afterall they need to be able to move her body from where they attacked her to the dump site), and has the ability to run (and possibly even outrun Nancy if need be).

Thoughts?

 

[ncnative]

Eye, you remind me of a Magic 8 Ball. Cryptic, shrouded in enigma but a tiny bit hokey..."...follow I40 toward Chapel Hill..."

Maybe it's time for Eye to have lunch. Hope she will be back later.
:eye:

Eye'll be a waitin' fer ye.

I don't think anyone would know to target a hyoid bone. When you are killing someone in a rage or even planned, targeting the hyoid would take some doing, when one could just whack, smack and thank you Jack and be done with it.

 

[ncnative]

sometimes it breaks? sometimes it doesn/t?

Like any other bone break, it probably depends on the victims bone density and shape as well as the location & direction of force application!
Grip high on the neck, or low on the neck? Don't know.

I don't think it changes anything unless maybe it helps rule in a suspect if that person knew exactly what the hyoid is and now to break it and targeted it for some reason? (maybe if a break impedes something like voice or breath?) It doesn't matter to the scenario.

I really am done here.
Don't confuse my future silence with any type of victory by those who discount the scientific nature of the topic thread (A U T O P S Y) and choose to speculate about the killer's motives and other non-autopsy distractions.

Bone density in a female of Nancy's young age, healthy, would be--well--healthy and dense. Dense bone hard to break with a hand. But, EB- you seem to have studied the matter and to be focusing on a woman killer, specific areas of the body with special attention to dirt, the autopsy, etc.

Let's not forget all the other parts of the picture that reveal so much more, or will once we have all the info. For a little levity, perhaps there will be some microscopic owl feathers in the mix. One never knows what LE is holding on to.:shocked2:

EB, will you share your reasons to focus on Autopsy (only the autopsy that we the public know), dirt and trails, woman killer, etc.? Why are you putting the other evidence on the back burner?

 

[garner_nc]

The missing (removed) clothing bothers me in relation to a female attacker...Just dont see a female removing clothing but then again stranger things have happened in this world.

 

[SleuthyGal]

The missing (removed) clothing bothers me in relation to a female attacker...Just dont see a female removing clothing but then again stranger things have happened in this world.

It is concerning, but it's possible a female attacker could endeavor to make such an attack look like a male did it to throw the scent off, so to speak.

 

[RaleighNC]

Nancy was 70 inches according to the autopsy. So that is 5'10"...very tall. Someone (let's say a female for the moment) attacking her would need to be tall/strong enough to take her on, get to her neck and, since Nancy was very fit and a runner fully capable of completing a half-marathon, they would probably need to be physically fit at least to a degree where Nancy could not outrun or 'out fight' them. This is assuming the person who attacked Nancy did not have a weapon (like a gun or knife) and only had their own hands and their own strength with which to attack and kill. They might have also had the element of surprise on their side, which would be a benefit if they were not quite as tall or didn't have the same strength.

Therefore if a female attacked Nancy then I believe it had to probably be someone who is also fairly tall, has some physical strength and/or the assistance of at least one other person (afterall they need to be able to move her body from where they attacked her to the dump site), and has the ability to run (and possibly even outrun Nancy if need be).

Thoughts?

I think you are really smart. ;-)

 

[SleuthyGal]

I think you are really smart. ;-)

You're very sweet. I'm just petite (5'1"), and I notice things like height. Pretty much the only one who needs to be worried about me on a running trail is Vern Troyer. Someone who is 5'10" and a good, fit runner would not likely be able to be caught easily by someone under, say, 5'4".

 

[RaleighNC]

I was being kinda sarcastic - see post #332.

 

[SleuthyGal]

I was being kinda sarcastic - see post #332.

OH DUH! I totally didn't see your post above (obviously). :blush: Well you are very smart too!!!

 

[Anderson]

sometimes it breaks? sometimes it doesn/t?

Like any other bone break, it probably depends on the victims bone density and shape as well as the location & direction of force application!
Grip high on the neck, or low on the neck? Don't know.

I don't think it changes anything unless maybe it helps rule in a suspect if that person knew exactly what the hyoid is and now to break it and targeted it for some reason? (maybe if a break impedes something like voice or breath?) It doesn't matter to the scenario.

I really am done here.
Don't confuse my future silence with any type of victory by those who discount the scientific nature of the topic thread (A U T O P S Y) and choose to speculate about the killer's motives and other non-autopsy distractions.

Welcome Eye Believe

There are so many different views on this board. It is really just a conversation. That is what this discussion board is all about, unlike other sites IMO. Nothing is personal. In fact, I think it is likely that you will find that that there are others that hold your view, if you continue to post.

I don't think that everyone wants to ignore scientific data. In fact,there are many that only pay attention to the hard facts, and, if anything, it is favoured. I think that it may be helpful to have a discussion along these lines, but we would need participants, such as yourself, to do so. It also allows us to dig a bit deeper as we reflect on what (little) we do know about this case.

I have read the autopsy report, but I am still trying to figure out what it all means. And, of course, if your start out with a certain scenario in mind, then it probably alters our interpretation of the scientific data. I will try to start with a clean slate and consider your theory.

One question that I have would be: what do you make of the missing running shoes and socks in your scenario? (I am sure that you have an answer, but I am still missing this). Look forward to the discussion.

Thanks in advance!

 

[ncnative]

FWIW, I am about to go for a workout, and swim afterward. I wasn't thinking about this until I did it: I put on a sports bra. I got it over my head which is the easy part. Then it was tight, stuck above the breasts waiting for me to tug, tug, tug and jiggle to get it on properly. What an effort. I am small busted, BTW. I can see where Nancy's sports bra would be left in the position above the breasts, on top of the shoulders maybe. She could've been rendered helpless at that point, OR the murderer could have tried to dress her in the bra and found he could get no further if he was in a hurry, freaked out over the murder, etc.

 

[RaleighNC]

hmm....

The discussion about the lack of clothing in the autopsy report has me wondering.

Off to post in the proper thread. #26, I believe.

 

[carolinalady]

Bone density in a female of Nancy's young age, healthy, would be--well--healthy and dense. Dense bone hard to break with a hand. But, EB- you seem to have studied the matter and to be focusing on a woman killer, specific areas of the body with special attention to dirt, the autopsy, etc.

Let's not forget all the other parts of the picture that reveal so much more, or will once we have all the info. For a little levity, perhaps there will be some microscopic owl feathers in the mix. One never knows what LE is holding on to.:shocked2:

EB, will you share your reasons to focus on Autopsy (only the autopsy that we the public know), dirt and trails, woman killer, etc.? Why are you putting the other evidence on the back burner?

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but certain medications used to treat Crohn's and/or colitis can can weakened bone density. I wonder if NC was took any such medication for her medical issues.

 

[ncnative]

CarolinaLady, are you referring to prednisone? Who knows. Prednisone used for long periods of time is not a good thing, in that it lowers immunities, can cause osteoporosis, weight gain, and other things. Nancy did not have the appearance of a bloated moon-faced prednisone patient. I think the prednisone would be used for flares, bad times etc. I have told my docs that the only way I'll ever take prednisone (steroid for autoimmune reactions, drug allergies, etc.) is if I have one foot in the grave.

I don't think doctors would allow anyone these days to get to the bad stages of what long term steroid prescription use would cause. Hopefully not.

 

[ncnative]

Nancy's liver showed "fine vacuolization of hepatocytes". With the med. terminology I've had over 35 yrs ago, I can figure out what it means. But is this from some sort of exposure to illness, poisoning in the past, alcohol abuse? Is fine vac. of hepat. something that occurs with decomp.? I don't think so, so you folks come and help me. I am Googling rampantly, and find that lots of catfish and lab animals have this too. ha . It's under "PROCEDURES", part of the microscopic evaluation of the liver, on the autopsy.

(I found my mistakes and tried to correct them.)

 

[ncnative]

Twice I've come across histopathology caused by fatal exposure to phosphine poisoning (phosphine pois. can come from exp. to fumigants). It's very intricate when you get into reading about phosphine exposure. Phosphine isn't found easily in nature. You'll have to look that one up. I love reading this type of info., so if you don't, maybe they will have a "human liver for dummies" and a "phosphine poisoning for dummies" on Google

As well, the "pancreas is autolyzed". Does this mean autolyzed via mechanical means used on autopsy to get it ready to be tested, or does it mean "autolyzed" pancreas due to poisoning or could it mean the pancreas autolyzed due to decomp? Need I take I40 to Chapel Hill?

The liver can help detoxify the pancreas. Of course, that's what a liver likes to do: detox, among other functions. We need the ME to come here and help us out.

To add, I want to see the BIG Mamma of the Autopsy results: the real thing. I want lab results from testing the liver, etc. Yes, I know she died of asphyxiation. I am SLEUTHING.

 

[CARYISHOME]

The missing (removed) clothing bothers me in relation to a female attacker...Just dont see a female removing clothing but then again stranger things have happened in this world.

I agree...I don't think a women would leave another woman virtually naked. No...it just doesn't work...

 

[momto3kids]

Does anyone have any thoughts on why the autopsy stated, 'the trachea contains a small amount of fluid and debris'? I have googled this all day and no clear explanation, unless a body is found in water.

I find it unusual the ME did not identify what it was, such as color, normal vs abnormal. Is this a part they are keeping to themselves for the time being?

Is there a chance she took a very small breath once dragged to the water?

 

[SleuthyGal]

Guess: either choking up something upon being strangled or being partly submerged in a wet/swampy area.

Add it to Jump's list of things to demand from John Betts when she storms and camps out at visits his office. :smile:

 

[fran]

Does anyone have any thoughts on why the autopsy stated, 'the trachea contains a small amount of fluid and debris'? I have googled this all day and no clear explanation, unless a body is found in water.

I find it unusual the ME did not identify what it was, such as color, normal vs abnormal. Is this a part they are keeping to themselves for the time being?

Is there a chance she took a very small breath once dragged to the water?

I'm no medical person by any means, but could this be some type of vomit? I did see one article where they referred to this type of fluid and 'debris' as 'vomit.' It wasn't from someone being strangled though, so I don't know if strangulation could cause this.

Oh, and I do NOT think a woman could have taken NC down. Nah.......it took someone much stronger than that,...................or someone & accomplice.

JMHO
fran