awaiting sentencing phase

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We've heard a great deal about the things we have to believe in order to accept OP's version of events. However, I've yet to see anybody outline the particular things we need to believe in order to accept that OP is guilty of intent to kill Reeva. As we're supposed to look at the case for both sides with equally balanced points of reasoning, it would be interesting to hear anyone's views on what would need to be believed to accept their version of events. Obviously, many people will have a different version of events depending on how they believe OP committed the crime, but I presume that everybody's version isn't cut and dried, and relies on us having to take a leap of faith on a few things.

One of the things that make me a strong non-believer in many forum posters versions is the idea that OP mocked Reeva's screams in the way that has been suggested. I absolutely accept that people have been mocked sarcastically during domestic violence, but here we are talking about something entirely different. This couldn't possibly be quantified as a similar action. If you try and imagine someone doing this, they would direct mocking sarcasm at the victim, and the tone and demeanour would be one that shows disrespect and apathy towards the victim. Now try and place that same picture on the morning in question. We are expected to believe that OP mocked Reeva, but rather than mocking her apathetically or sarcastically he decided to mock her by making a scream at such volume that it was heard over a distance almost 2 football pitches away.

This idea is the exact opposite of how domestic violence perpetrators operate. The modus operandi of such a person is to direct everything towards the victim, whilst attempting to maintain an outward image of normality to people outside the relationship. I fail to see the connection between someone screaming in a distressed manner at such extreme volume with someone supposedly using a disrespectful mocking tone towards a victim. The two really are miles apart.

It's worth remembering that this suggestion wasn't proffered by the prosecution. It would never have been suggested because it contradicts typical domestic violence indicators.

This was simply a passing comment made by Michelle Burger when she was pushed for a response as to why OP would have screamed, bearing in mind he was the one supposed to be committing the violence. The comment was made off the top of her head, which is clear to see by re-watching the court testimony. The reason we know that it was is because she didn't suspect or suggest that it may have been a mocking tone at any time whatsoever prior to Roux's question during testimony. Both herself and Charl Johnson were convinced that the noises were related to a burglary at the time, and this was never disputed. This was nothing more than a throwaway comment made by Michelle Burger when she got a bit riled in court. As with a few things, it was blown out of proportion by people thinking this may have happened. She didn't even suggest that she thought this is what happened - she said 'perhaps' he may have been mocking. A simple speculative comment made by a witness became a necessity, so much so that many versions fell apart if they did not include this as a definitive action. We have seen another example of witness speculation hindering the trial, rather than helping.

Fair enough Steve.
I have re-read it that's why I am re-quoting it in entirety.
So are you saying that its WS posters who have got confused and think Burger said those disputed screams were done in mockery?
 
No need to resist anything, I'm happy to be questioned or challenged on any of my posts. Have you ever read such nonsense of a mocking voice being heard 150 metres away, ever, by anyone? If you cannot give me a single example you certainly cannot portray this to be typical of DV. It really is as straight-forward as that.

I never indicated that Burger said the screams were a mockery - please re-read the original post.

I'll post some examples of DV scenarios if you like - but I only referred to that because you were saying there were "typical domestic violence indicators". It's a fair point thought - AFAIK Nel never used the term DV in that court room. But surely that's because he did not have to prove a motive, a why he did it, but instead offered his "mosaic" of evidence.
 
No need to resist anything, I'm happy to be questioned or challenged on any of my posts. Have you ever read such nonsense of a mocking voice being heard 150 metres away, ever, by anyone? If you cannot give me a single example you certainly cannot portray this to be typical of DV. It really is as straight-forward as that.

I never indicated that Burger said the screams were a mockery - please re-read the original post.

Forgot to add:
Although its pretty pointless as I can't replicate music teach Burger's hearing ability ( mines pretty good though) nor the conditions, topgraphy and ambient temperatures etc of Silverwoods on a warm, still night, I will actually give it a go next weekend!

I definitely don't want to be shouting "Help Help Help" in ANY tone of voice in my neighbourhood in England - someone will call the police!
But when I'm in wales next weekend (no near neighbours) I'll do that from 1/10th of a mile away. ( My track is a mile long so it's easy.)
If it's not blowing a rainy gale(!) I'll try it and let you know.
 
No need to resist anything, I'm happy to be questioned or challenged on any of my posts. Have you ever read such nonsense of a mocking voice being heard 150 metres away, ever, by anyone? If you cannot give me a single example you certainly cannot portray this to be typical of DV. It really is as straight-forward as that.


I never indicated that Burger said the screams were a mockery - please re-read the original post.

Yes! My friend was shot dead by her husband, it was a DV situation, in a quiet part of town in the middle of the day! She shouted HELP....and he shouted back, her exact same words, it was all during an argument. And neighbour's heard BOTH sets of sounds!

I am curious to know what exactly should have happened for you to be convinced it was murder with intention? In very few cases are eye witnesses available in a murder, so one has to intelligently infer and build a case on circumstantial evidence. The judge's verdict has not evenly split opinion, there are more legal minds who believe she HAS erred than less. So does that mean ALL majority legal minds are mistaken or mad?
 
No need to resist anything, I'm happy to be questioned or challenged on any of my posts. Have you ever read such nonsense of a mocking voice being heard 150 metres away, ever, by anyone? If you cannot give me a single example you certainly cannot portray this to be typical of DV. It really is as straight-forward as that.

I never indicated that Burger said the screams were a mockery - please re-read the original post.
BIB - I questioned your post below, and you didn't respond. Do you have an answer yet?

There's been quite a lot of debate about this. My take on it is that the issue of believing it to be dolus directus or not only matters with regard to sentencing options. For me, it's imperative that the sentence fits the crime committed as that's the essence of justice. We can get so bogged down with achieving a specific conviction 'terminology' that we lose sight of what the conviction is meant to achieve.

I think in what has been such an emotive case it's perfectly right and proper that the judge should be able to use her own discretion in passing a suitable sentence.
The verdict she elected, whether technically correct or not, is certainly one based on common sense.

My question was:

BIB - Are you saying it was common sense to declare that OP, who was busy building up a collection of guns, who used to go down to the range and shoot when he couldn't sleep, who was extremely knowledgeable about the damage his choice of bullets could inflict - couldn't have foreseen that shooting 4 times into that confined space might kill the person behind it?
 
Page 4 of the pdf, or page 4 of the witness list? Are you drawing our attention to anyone in particular?

The whole of the witness list commencing on page 4 of the PDF. I was surprised to see a number of names there but no, I'm not drawing attention to anyone in particular.
 
The whole of the witness list commencing on page 4 of the PDF. I was surprised to see a number of names there but no, I'm not drawing attention to anyone in particular.

Haven't you seen it before? I'm surprised. It's been referred to many times on here, since the very early days. As it's a pdf, it could only be quoted as a link of course, no copy/pasting available, so maybe you just missed it.
 
The whole of the witness list commencing on page 4 of the PDF. I was surprised to see a number of names there but no, I'm not drawing attention to anyone in particular.

Ach so. :doh:
 
As per my post page 10 ( bottom of post) - we need to proceed with caution on JG's point about sentencing as two posters upthread - who have more knowledge on points of law than me- have recently said JG may have got it wrong on that point.

IMO I haven't a clue if he is right or wrong - but someone more knowledgeable will help clear this up.

I remember reading in an article that the legal experts are saying that if Masipa comes back with an appropriate sentence such as 10 years for example..the prosecution may not appeal the verdict. However, if the sentence is too light they will most likely appeal the verdict. This means that their main goal for appealing the verdict is to change the sentence. So..yes..it's very possible JG got it wrong..at least I hope so..
 


Extremely important issue Pandax81, thank you for noting the relevant sections. Appeal's court can change judgement and sentencing. Also, both defence and state can appeal sentence independently.

Lisa, thank you, that was an riveting, textured interview with Judge Greenland.
Could you or someone else message the J.Greenland that he is incorrect on those two points about the appeal sentencing? It would be a great shame, in such a fascinating and informative interview, if there is further legal confusion about sentencing appeals. Than you may edit in any corrections before transcribing, as update or insertion.

More soon about points from the interview and context of SA judiciary.

Hi K.T., yes, I will pass along your feedback to the Judge in regards to the sentencing, and will see if he can comment with clarification. I'm in the process of transcribing and will keep you posted on when it's available.
 
I remember reading in an article that the legal experts are saying that if Masipa comes back with an appropriate sentence such as 10 years for example..the prosecution may not appeal the verdict. However, if the sentence is too light they will most likely appeal the verdict. This means that their main goal for appealing the verdict is to change the sentence. So..yes..it's very possible JG got it wrong..at least I hope so..

Do recollect reading something similar. But surely they also have to appeal the verdict - regardless - due to dangerous precedent now set by Masipa:
dangerous precedents re self defence cases- killing in response to a vague sound through a closed door is now a credible defence.
 
Do recollect reading something similar. But surely they also have to appeal the verdict - regardless - due to dangerous precedent now set by Masipa:
dangerous precedents re self defence cases- killing in response to a vague sound through a closed door is now a credible defence.

Indeed. It is not just the present case or OP's sentence, but it is SA society at stake here. So appeal they must. It would be difficult to find a case more straightforward (in the sense of there being overwhelming evidence supporting guilt) than this, and in all cases then, the accused will have to be set free. I hope the judge and the assessors realize the graveness of what they have done.
 
Indeed. It is not just the present case or OP's sentence, but it is SA society at stake here. So appeal they must. It would be difficult to find a case more straightforward (in the sense of there being overwhelming evidence supporting guilt) than this, and in all cases then, the accused will have to be set free. I hope the judge and the assessors realize the graveness of what they have done.

Agreed, many miscarriages of justice could follow on from this precedent.
No surprise South African commentators are so angry - they already have to fight the reputation of corruption and "crime capital" label, now incompetence at highest levels.

Re bib -Masipa and her assessors - realising what they have done. Yes they must have- ever since the uproar. Oh the shame, if I was Masipa, it would be the first thought on waking in the mornings!

Doubtless, all three of them will be dreading Oct 13th!
With Oscar, that makes four???
 
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/03/03/here-s-the-luxury-hideaway-where-oscar-has-found-refuge

Here's the luxury hideaway where Oscar has found refuge

It is in a former Dutch Reformed Church rectory that Oscar Pistorius has found refuge since his arrest for the killing of his model girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp.

The estate in the "old money" suburb of Waterkloof in Pretoria is a family-owned property that boasts high walls, a triple-storey mansion and a luxury swimming pool.

A private security guard has been stationed outside every day this week.



Interesting pictures of uncle Arnold's home.
 
This will have certainly crossed the minds of the prosecution legal team. If there was the slightest chance that Frank had any involvement in the case he would have been subpoenaed - without a doubt. This will have been gone over with a fine tooth-comb by the prosecution team.

There will be a perfectly valid reason why Frank wasn't called as a witness, the fact that we haven't heard about it makes no difference one way or the other. You only get information about those witnesses that are called to trial during a case. Surely nobody expected to hear an advocate to say 'We wanted Frank as a witness but...' ? This wouldn't be allowed I'm afraid and would make a mockery of the legal system if the court could comment on those who have not been called as witnesses.

Yes, and the prosecution certainly would not have been able to call Frank to testify if he had been spirited away to, say Mozambique?
 
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