awaiting sentencing phase

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Estelle said:
Geevee said: "He does all that pouring out to Sam and then has Peet try to get Reeva a ticket for London? Am I remembering that testimony correctly?"

It would not have been Reeva that OP tried to get a ticket for London Olympics as that was July/August 2012, perhaps it was for Jenna. Reeva did not meet OP until November 4.
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As far as I remember, the plan was to get Reeva a ticket to accompany him to some event in Brazil.
 
Can you imagine being in your intimate partner's home and finding this? I can't believe it was up on a wall. More likely in a cupboard, under the lounge, anywhere but not up on a wall. I'd love to know if Sam has seen it, and if so, where it was.

I can believe the large photo in the middle was taken when he was 22, but look at the photos on the right-hand side where he's wearing sunglasses. His hairline has receded noticeably. They look far more recent to me.
 

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If you've followed my Theory (sorry, it's off the air at the moment, see earlier post) and would like to help, I've just 3 final pieces from the evidence that I'd like to fit into it if I can. Any thoughts are welcome.

1. Assume the balcony door and bathroom window were open all night. Reeva is obviously in the toilet when the gun is fired and when the door is hit with the bat. Does this mean it must be possible for the neighbours to hear her screaming through the closed toilet window and door and open bathroom window? This is by far the simplest explanation.

Or does she open the toilet window to call for help? Is this the window OP hears sliding open in his version or is his simply embellishing with something he's heard often before? I think it may slide up from the bottom or down from the top.If so, she would have to reach under the blind to raise the bottom window (not a problem) but OP must have closed it again later (e.g. when he's broken into the toilet or collects Reeva's bag) as it's closed in the police photos. Why would he want to close it?

2. The neighbours hear a woman screaming, including "help". Assuming Reeva has a phone with her (humour me, I think she does, and it doesn't matter which one for this question) why would Reeva scream for help rather than phone? I'm thinking it's because it's a natural reaction, it appeals for immediate assistance, she may have thought Frank could hear her, or even the neighbours (particularly if she's opened the window).

3. Finally, I'd like to explain the jeans outside on the ground. I have an idea but I'm not happy with it. Any thoughts?

Thanks
 
MN mentioning hearing ' No , please no no ' ...

That could be Reeva's last words imo.. and if it's so , that possibily implies that she saw him when shooting..

Last year I remember a poster here from Germany had mentioned that he had seen a news on TV abt the statement of a witness hearing a woman's voice screaming No, please no no.. We thought that , that was a damning evidence if brought to court. During the trial only MN mentioned that changing that version to a man's voice unfortunately .. I believe that was Reeva screaming .
 
Mr Fossil said:
If you've followed my Theory (sorry, it's off the air at the moment, see earlier post) and would like to help, I've just 3 final pieces from the evidence that I'd like to fit into it if I can. Any thoughts are welcome.

1. Assume the balcony door and bathroom window were open all night. Reeva is obviously in the toilet when the gun is fired and when the door is hit with the bat. Does this mean it must be possible for the neighbours to hear her screaming through the closed toilet window and door and open bathroom window? This is by far the simplest explanation.

Or does she open the toilet window to call for help? Is this the window OP hears sliding open in his version or is his simply embellishing with something he's heard often before? I think it may slide up from the bottom or down from the top.If so, she would have to reach under the blind to raise the bottom window (not a problem) but OP must have closed it again later (e.g. when he's broken into the toilet or collects Reeva's bag) as it's closed in the police photos. Why would he want to close it?

2. The neighbours hear a woman screaming, including "help". Assuming Reeva has a phone with her (humour me, I think she does, and it doesn't matter which one for this question) why would Reeva scream for help rather than phone? I'm thinking it's because it's a natural reaction, it appeals for immediate assistance, she may have thought Frank could hear her, or even the neighbours (particularly if she's opened the window).

3. Finally, I'd like to explain the jeans outside on the ground. I have an idea but I'm not happy with it. Any thoughts?

Thanks
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For #2, exactly. It is a natural instinctive reaction to know that the only way people could save her life would be if someone could come rushing up to help her in that toilet. Which is why she probably chose to open the window and yell out of it to try to flag for help.

She probably would realize that it would take police too long to get there. But there is another reason too....

Another reason to yell out the window is she most likely thought that if she started to scream out where others hear her, then it may force OP to stop the attack. She probably thought that he would realize others have now heard her screaming, so she hoped he would stop and realize he would be caught if he continued his attack. Kind of like when a loud alarm goes off and a burglar runs away because they know others are hearing the alarm.

It was a great move on her part. The problem she faced though is that OPs rage was so bad, he couldnt even stop himself.

For #3, I think she was using them as a flag to get attention to the window as she was screaming for help. I think she dropped them either as she was first shot or by fear as the bat was crashing on the door.
 
MURDERER_SERVANT said:
MN mentioning hearing ' No , please no no ' ...

That could be Reeva's last words imo.. and if it's so , that possibily implies that she saw him when shooting..

Last year I remember a poster here from Germany had mentioned that he had seen a news on TV abt the statement of a witness hearing a woman's voice screaming No, please no no.. We thought that , that was a damning evidence if brought to court. During the trial only MN mentioned that changing that version to a man's voice unfortunately .. I believe that was Reeva screaming .
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That's an interesting proposition. He mentions a high pitched cry. I have Reeva seeing OP return to the bathroom with the gun though the slither of a crack in the door (the light being on in the bathroom). But why wouldn't MN then hear the blood curdling scream and the gunshots?
 
Hatfield said:
For #2, exactly. It is a natural instinctive reaction to know that the only way people could save her life would be if someone could come rushing up to help her in that toilet. Which is why she probably chose to open the window and yell out of it to try to flag for help.

She probably would realize that it would take police too long to get there. But there is another reason too....

Another reason to yell out the window is she most likely thought that if she started to scream out where others hear her, then it may force OP to stop the attack. She probably thought that he would realize others have now heard her screaming, so she hoped he would stop and realize he would be caught if he continued his attack. Kind of like when a loud alarm goes off and a burglar runs away because they know others are hearing the alarm.

It was a great move on her part. The problem she faced though is that OPs rage was so bad, he couldnt even stop himself.

For #3, I think she was using them as a flag to get attention to the window as she was screaming for help. I think she dropped them either as she was first shot or by fear as the bat was crashing on the door.
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Thanks. I like your additional reason for #2. I assume you mean the toilet window (for both screaming and waving)? In which case why did OP close it? And wouldn't it have been too dark to expect anyone to see waving jeans at the back of the house?
 
Mr Fossil said:
Thanks. I like your additional reason for #2. I assume you mean the toilet window (for both screaming and waving)? In which case why did OP close it? And wouldn't it have been too dark to expect anyone to see waving jeans at the back of the house?
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Yea, was meaning the actual toilet window. And I do think OP closed it. For him, it was also probably instinctive to go into coverup mode immediately. He probably instinctively thought to just shut down the window since the victim was the one opening it and screaming out of it. Kind of like..."i'll make that go away".

Good point about the darkness outside, although she really had no choice but to do what little she could. The only window there, so yell out of it and try to flag someone.
 
Hatfield said:
Yea, was meaning the actual toilet window. And I do think OP closed it. For him, it was also probably instinctive to go into coverup mode immediately. He probably instinctively thought to just shut down the window since the victim was the one opening it and screaming out of it. Kind of like..."i'll make that go away".

Good point about the darkness outside, although she really had no choice but to do what little she could. The only window there, so yell out of it and try to flag someone.
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Ok.

I should also have added: what made her think to take her jeans with her when she fled to the toilet? I could add where did she get them from but I'm happy that she may have had a laundered pair available for the following day.
 
Mr Fossil said:
Ok.

I should also have added: what made her think to take her jeans with her when she fled to the toilet? I could add where did she get them from but I'm happy that she may have had a laundered pair available for the following day.
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That is a good question.

Its just a guess but I think by the time she ended up in the bathroom, she was wearing them. See, I think the argument + fighting was a lengthy argument, and my guess is she was trying to leave his house. At some point during the argument, I think she put on her pants and was gathering her things to leave.
When OP finally went bizerk, he must have been in a position where he was blocking her escape route from going out the front door, so she found herself only able to run to that bathroom area.
 
Mr Fossil....

Whether Reeva's screams could be heard from the toilet is only relevant if she was actually in there for the bulk of the screaming. There's no reason that I can see to assume that she was in there for any longer than the few seconds that it took to shoot her.

Maybe, they were fighting/arguing in the bathroom next to the open window, he goes for the gun & her screams become more intense when he comes back with it and desperately shuts herself in the toilet seconds before he shoots her. In which case, whether screams could be heard from a closed toilet cubicle becomes largely irrelevant.

Also, I think we need to consider the possibility that the male helps that various witnesses heard were actually shouted while Reeva was still alive.

We only have his word for it that he was on the bedroom balcony and that he did this after he had shot her. If the "helps" heard by Burger and Johnson were the same ones heard by Mrs N and Carice, then there is a chance that Reeva was alive at that point...because her "help" was heard immediately before his.

Just a few thoughts, not saying this is right.
 
LemonMousse said:
Mr Fossil....

Whether Reeva's screams could be heard from the toilet is only relevant if she was actually in there for the bulk of the screaming. There's no reason that I can see to assume that she was in there for any longer than the few seconds that it took to shoot her.

Maybe, they were fighting/arguing in the bathroom next to the open window, he goes for the gun & her screams become more intense when he comes back with it and desperately shuts herself in the toilet seconds before he shoots her. In which case, whether screams could be heard from a closed toilet cubicle becomes largely irrelevant.

Also, I think we need to consider the possibility that the male helps that various witnesses heard were actually shouted while Reeva was still alive.

We only have his word for it that he was on the bedroom balcony and that he did this after he had shot her. If the "helps" heard by Burger and Johnson were the same ones heard by Mrs N and Carice, then there is a chance that Reeva was alive at that point...because her "help" was heard immediately before his.

Just a few thoughts, not saying this is right.
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I'm going with bat then gun. This means Reeva is in the toilet from before the first bat strike, through the "helps" and then the gunshots. This is the period when I'm considering whether she opened the toilet window or could be heard without doing so. It must be a few (not many) minutes rather than seconds. Before she flees to the toilet I have her arguing for an hour in the bedroom (as EvdM hears).

BTW I have his "helps" as being from the bathroom. I go with what Michelle Burger offered, that he was echoing Reeva's cry for help, taunting her. I think Dr Stipp said they sounded like he was embarrassed. If he was really screaming for help he'd have done so at the top of his voice with passion (not that it would make sense in his version, because he doesn't know it's Reeva in the toilet at that stage, he only suspects. And he hasn't checked the bedroom door to see if she's gone downstairs. What's he calling for help for?)
 
Exactly.

Where Roux's timeline goes wrong is in it's unwarranted assumption that the "helps" heard in a male voice were from the balcony after Reeva was shot.

Personally, I think Reeva shouted "help" from the bathroom and OP mimicked her while he was in the bedroom getting the gun. If the balcony door was open, this is why Carice and the rest heard that without hearing Reeva...because she was down the passage in the bathroom. But the Burger-Johnson's did hear her as well because they were in a different relative position.
 
MURDERER_SERVANT said:
MN mentioning hearing ' No , please no no ' ...

That could be Reeva's last words imo.. and if it's so , that possibily implies that she saw him when shooting..

Last year I remember a poster here from Germany had mentioned that he had seen a news on TV abt the statement of a witness hearing a woman's voice screaming No, please no no.. We thought that , that was a damning evidence if brought to court. During the trial only MN mentioned that changing that version to a man's voice unfortunately .. I believe that was Reeva screaming .
Click to expand...

very possible she could see him. especially if the bathroom light was on. [or that she had become accustomed to the darkness having been in the toilet for a while]
it was dark inside the toilet, light[er] in the bathroom.
if the small crack was made in the door by the first couple of bat strikes, and if she was standing close to the door she would have been able to see out from dark to light. her line of sight would have been right towards the area he stood in for the first shot - especially if he first entered the bathroom a little more and then moved back towards the bathroom entrance way before firing the first shot [his testimony]. i believe op left the bathroom [to get the gun] she would have then got up from the toilet, anxious to see what he was doing/what was going to happen next... and would have been focussing on the entrance area into the bathroom - in anticipation of op re-entering.

unlikely that he would have been able to see through the crack, from the light bathroom into the dark toilet from his side. so he would not have been able to have seen her. which, for me explains why the first bullet was aimed in the general area of someone sitting on the toilet.

my line of sight image for the first [hip] shot attached. using/extending mangena's rods.
 

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