AZ AZ - Adrienne Salinas, 19, Tempe, 15 Jun 2013 - #8

[MissDemeanor]

What's the point of whether Adrienne remains where skeletal or some flesh remained? Is it to help to determine the cause of death? Or something else?

Yes. This is highly important in determining both COD and discovering any other foreign DNA that might lead to her murderer, if it is indeed deemed a homicide, which it appears to be.

That's why all the talk about the condition of the 'remains'.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

What's the point of whether Adrienne remains where skeletal or some flesh remained? Is it to help to determine the cause of death? Or something else?

IMO we were discussing DNA (Adrienne's and potential foreign DNA) and trying to determine if there was any, thus the ensuing discussion of Adrienne's body. Seems we can move past this point IMO.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

jinx MissD! You are too fast!

 

[MissDemeanor]

haha AZgirl! I was going to say the same thing!

 

[RANCH]

I wonder what the odds are that a suspects DNA could be recovered from Adrienne's remains after all of the time that she was left out in the elements?

I'm guessing that it's a remote possibility but I may be wrong.

 

[gngr~snap]

I wonder what the odds are that a suspects DNA could be recovered from Adrienne's remains after all of the time that she was left out in the elements?

I'm guessing that it's a remote possibility but I may be wrong.

It's possible if the perps hair was pulled from his head and somehow stuck to her body... or IF there were any finger nails found DNA could be found still attached from scratching him.
Unlikely but not totally impossible. IMO

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[DocBrew]

I feel like if her remains were solely skeletal, we would have learned this relatively quickly. The fact that vultures led the landowner to her and that Pooley said 'condition of her body' or something to that effect when referring to her remains leads me to believe that they do have something other than solely a skeleton. I believe the landowner even said he found 'her legs' instead of the more generic 'bones' that is typically used to describe a skeleton or parts thereof.

 

[RANCH]

It's possible if the perps hair was pulled from his head and somehow stuck to her body... or IF there were any finger nails found DNA could be found still attached from scratching him.
Unlikely but not totally impossible. IMO

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Those are some good ideas. Did they find any of her clothes? Perhaps hair, fibers or blood that could be linked to a suspect would remain on them. MOO.

 

[MissDemeanor]

The biggest hope I have is my belief that whoever killed Adrienne is not nearly as smart as they think they are. And I have a hunch they think they have gotten away with it. But for sure they made mistakes. And I believe the FBI and Tempe LE are all over this case and, while I am not a scientist, I do know that medical technology has come a very long way in the last few years. If there is anything there they will find it.

I doubt they will ever find her cell phone, however, because I have a hunch this particular perp probably did away with it in a manner it will never be found. I don't think it was some random perp who would just toss the phone away. I think it was someone who had contact with Adrienne the night she disappeared and they knew they had to destroy the cell phone because the phone held incriminating evidence.

But destroying the phone won't be enough....they will be caught.

My hopes! My prayers! My belief!

My Opinion!

 

[Woe.be.gone]

When we closed I had been reading about stages of death.

Pages back I posted something about bone marrow but knew I hadn't researched or looked up if my comment could be true or not. Bad girl!
When the topic of DNA came up again I decided to read a little about bones after death.

The following information is from Forensic Science Central. There are many sites that describe the stages of decomp after death. There are five stages which are: Fresh, Putrefaction, Black Putrefaction, Butyric Fermentation and Dry.

On average the first stage lasts three days (Fresh).
The second, four to ten days (Putrefaction).
The third, ten to twenty-five days (Black Putrefaction).
The fourth, twenty to twenty-five days (Butyric Fermentation).
The fifth, twenty-five to fifty days but can last up to a year (Dry).

Adding up the stages of decomp, depending on temperature, insect activity and location of the body, decomposition can last anywhere from 63 days or as long as one year for the final stage to complete.
AS was found approximately 51 days after she disappeared. Unless her death occurred long after A disappeared, her bones would have or almost have reached the Dry stage of decomposition by the time she was recovered. As determined by being found in a desert and using using the greatest number of days for duration of each of the four stages before reaching the earliest day to reach the final Dry stage. I have no idea why the vultures/buzzards would still be hovering over her remains at that final stage.

If a body is completely skeletonized, time of death based on bones may be extremely difficult to determine. Once bones lack blood supply, the marrow dries up. Bone marrow may remain viable up to five days after death.
Obviously, in AS's case, bone marrow would not reveal specific information unless she died within five days from when she was found.

Forensic anthropologists aid in excavation of and perform initial analysis of bones.
They can identify evidence of trauma to bones prior to death and/or trauma which occurred during incident, which may help determine cause of death.
They know how to look for use of sharp blades, bullets, strangulation if hyoid bone is recovered, forceful blows to the head and blunt force trauma.

They can often determine the following info from bones -

1. An estimated age of deceased using growth patterns that take place during ages 17-20, 18-20, and 24 (among other things).

2. Species

3. Gender using especially pelvic and skull bones. In the case of females they can tell if post pubescent or not.

4. Race

After a body has completely skeletonized, obtaining nuclear DNA is almost impossible (not sure why "almost") but Mitochondrial DNA is more likely possible.

My favorite word these days seems to be "uncanny". Does anybody else think that finding AS's remains beyond fifty days (dry stage assured) seems uncanny?

 

[gngr~snap]

The biggest hope I have is my belief that whoever killed Adrienne is not nearly as smart as they think they are. And I have a hunch they think they have gotten away with it. But for sure they made mistakes. And I believe the FBI and Tempe LE are all over this case and, while I am not a scientist, I do know that medical technology has come a very long way in the last few years. If there is anything there they will find it.

I doubt they will ever find her cell phone, however, because I have a hunch this particular perp probably did away with it in a manner it will never be found. I don't think it was some random perp who would just toss the phone away. I think it was someone who had contact with Adrienne the night she disappeared and they knew they had to destroy the cell phone because the phone held incriminating evidence.

But destroying the phone won't be enough....they will be caught.

My hopes! My prayers! My belief!

My Opinion!

Well ya know there have been weird cases where fibers from a peeps car, home, pets etc have been recovered from a victim but the perps DNA was not located.

Back in the 80's Wayne Williams (who murdered several young men here in Atlanta) - before DNA testing was done- fibers from the carpet in his home (or car) were located on the victims.
I believe he disposed of most if nit all of his victims in the Chattahoochee river.

Murders got.solved before DNA so there is hope!
Moo

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[gngr~snap]

Here is a link. It was carpet fiber from where he lived.
http://www.e-gunlab.com/hpc_ww.shtml

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[MissDemeanor]

Well ya know there have been weird cases where fibers from a peeps car, home, pets etc have been recovered from a victim but the perps DNA was not located.

Back in the 80's Wayne Williams (who murdered several young men here in Atlanta) - before DNA testing was done- fibers from the carpet in his home (or car) were located on the victims.
I believe he disposed of most if nit all of his victims in the Chattahoochee river.

Murders got.solved before DNA so there is hope!
Moo

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Thank you for that post! We need to all remember what you said:

Murders got.solved before DNA so there is hope!

I just love you for this!!!!!!

<3

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

Woe - thanks for that post. You did a lot of work. I will read it again for sure.

So... what is your takeaway (if anything) from that research? They did identify her body/remains, purportedly with DNA. I am not a scientific person, but I am pretty logical and using logic and the research you shared, it would seem, well, that she was either killed closer to the time she was found, or that some form of DNA was still available somewhere. Teeth? (which are bones, I know...)

My whole concern was about foreign DNA and if there might be any. A few posts replied with thoughts to that. But now I have a whole new something to think on. =)

This family will start to heal (hopefully) with Adrienne's service this weekend. I know we all hope they have more concrete answers soon.

BTW - I love the word uncanny. Would be a great screen name here.

 

[gngr~snap]

The carpet fibers...

I think they also found hair from his German Shepherd as well as trunk carpet fiber.

It may take a long time...
This will get resolved!
Moo
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[Woe.be.gone]

Hey hey! We are back.

According to the property owner who found Adrienne's remains, he was drawn to the area because of vulture activity. He went to investigate what they were interested in. To me, that would mean there as still something to attract them to the area. Flesh. So she wasn't completely decomposed to the point of skeleton remains. Add to that, his comment that he saw legs under the brush, would also indicate to me that there was still flesh on the remains. (Trying really hard to separate the person of Adrienne to be able to type this for clarification purposes.)

As I try to show scientifically in my post above, if vultures were present after fifty days, then Adrienne was either murdered at a much later date or there were no vultures present. That is, unless someone can offer another explanation. I'm surely not a verified scientist - lol!

My understanding is that the stages of decomp are regardless of whether a person has been buried or not. That's why the range of days for each stage are given. The process is going to happen after we die regardless (unless we are cremated). If I'm wrong, I welcome correction with explanation.

 

[MissDemeanor]

As I try to show scientifically in my post above, if vultures were present after fifty days, then Adrienne was either murdered at a much later date or there were no vultures present. That is, unless someone can offer another explanation. I'm surely not a verified scientist - lol!

My understanding is that the stages of decomp are regardless of whether a person has been buried or not. That's why the range of days for each stage are given. The process is going to happen after we die regardless (unless we are cremated). If I'm wrong, I welcome correction with explanation.

Well, based on the information you have posted, the MEs should be able to tell at least the approximate 'date' of her death. As horrible as it is to consider, there is always the possibility she was held for some time before being murdered.

You have presented some interesting stuff for us to ponder. Thx!

 

[MissDemeanor]

I feel like if her remains were solely skeletal, we would have learned this relatively quickly. The fact that vultures led the landowner to her and that Pooley said 'condition of her body' or something to that effect when referring to her remains leads me to believe that they do have something other than solely a skeleton. I believe the landowner even said he found 'her legs' instead of the more generic 'bones' that is typically used to describe a skeleton or parts thereof.

Hey Doc! I agree with you completely!

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Woe - thanks for that post. You did a lot of work. I will read it again for sure.

So... what is your takeaway (if anything) from that research? They did identify her body/remains, purportedly with DNA. I am not a scientific person, but I am pretty logical and using logic and the research you shared, it would seem, well, that she was either killed closer to the time she was found, or that some form of DNA was still available somewhere. Teeth? (which are bones, I know...)

My whole concern was about foreign DNA and if there might be any. A few posts replied with thoughts to that. But now I have a whole new something to think on. =)

This family will start to heal (hopefully) with Adrienne's service this weekend. I know we all hope they have more concrete answers soon.

BTW - I love the word uncanny. Would be a great screen name here.

From the article, it seems mitochondrial (maternal) DNA may still be possible to obtain and determine. Iirc, it takes time to run those tests. How long after discovering Adrienne did they announce it was her confirmed by dna? Iirc it was a short time. Hair still attached to the skull maybe? For sure, teeth if available. It was reported that all parts weren't intact and we don't know if that means parts are missing or separated. If so, LE would try to determine if the missing parts were purposeful or happened due to the wash. They did conduct extensive searches over the next few days following Adrienne's recovery. No report on if they found additional evidence afaik.
The purpose of my post was to write down what science says is possible and try to fit what we know about this case into that information.

Mitochondrial DNA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not a science person either and noticed a slight error I made in adding up the days of the stages too! But the point is, she was found after enough time went by to hinder determining anything from the discovery of her body. One thought is that someone wanted to relieve her family from the agony of not knowing if Adrienne was dead or alive but didn't want that to happen prior to any possible evidence being washed away. Someone could potentially have waited until the skeleton reached the dry bone stage. Of course this theory would mean Adrienne died at the hand of someone who is close to her or perhaps a local who, for whatever reason, wanted her found.

Since the flooding occurred on July 21 (correct?), why wasn't she discovered until another two weeks passed beyond that date?

Just imo, foreign DNA is unlikely.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

From the article, it seems mitochondrial (maternal) DNA may still be possible to obtain and determine. Iirc, it takes time to run those tests. How long after discovering Adrienne did they announce it was her confirmed by dna? Iirc it was a short time. Hair still attached to the skull maybe? For sure, teeth if available. It was reported that all parts weren't intact and we don't know if that means parts are missing or separated. If so, LE would try to determine if the missing parts were purposeful or happened due to the wash. They did conduct extensive searches over the next few days following Adrienne's recovery. No report on if they found additional evidence afaik.
The purpose of my post was to write down what science says is possible and try to fit what we know about this case into that information.

Mitochondrial DNA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not a science person either and noticed a slight error I made in adding up the days of the stages too! But the point is, she was found after enough time went by to hinder determining anything from the discovery of her body. One thought is that someone wanted to relieve her family from the agony of not knowing if Adrienne was dead or alive but didn't want that to happen prior to any possible evidence being washed away. Someone could potentially have waited until the skeleton reached the dry bone stage. Of course this theory would mean Adrienne died at the hand of someone who is close to her or perhaps a local who, for whatever reason, wanted her found.

Since the flooding occurred on July 21 (correct?), why wasn't she discovered until another two weeks passed beyond that date?

Just imo, foreign DNA is unlikely.

Or DNA from Bone marrow IMO. The time it takes to get the results typically depends upon the lab it is sent to. That is probably why they sent her remains to Tucson. IMO.

It is strange the vultures were over her body also 2 weeks after the flooding.

Foreign DNA? Well I think her clothes would have helped with that but no sign of her belongings from all reports.