AZ AZ - Daniel Robinson, 24, remote job site, Buckeye, 23 Jun 2021 #2

[capitola51]

The thing that stands out to me is that the Jeep isn’t in park or neutral. The Jeep being in “drive” doesn’t make sense to me. Were the gears stuck? Did the towing company and police do most of the ignition cycles - maybe.

The 11 miles has always bothered me. Are there statistics regarding the extra mileage? What exactly causes that?

MOO

The 11 miles could be considered an anomaly, a reasonable difference. But combined with the 40+ start attempts, which could not have been performed with the transmission in drive (see

) and also with the external damage to the vehicle, MOO combined they do tend to point to multiple crashes with the final roll being the end point and an airbag-inducing crash earlier. When the air bags deploy the controller also cuts the fuel pump and has to be reset. I'd love to see the browser search history on DR's phone that morning to see if he looked up the post airbag deploy reset sequence (that would also give us a better range of timings).

 

[capitola51]

No underwear was found? Either he wasn’t wearing any, or he wandered off just in his underwear. It may mean nothing, but if he did usually wear underwear, it indicates that he may have been looking for someone to help. It’s a bit weird if someone approached you asking for help if only have underwear on, but, really, really weird if they are completely naked.

If he kept his underwear on, that could be significant in trying to determine his state of mind. It could indicate that he had the mental capacity to know he needed to find help and not to do this completely naked.

Lots of use of the word ‘underwear’, because in the UK, pants are underwear, so as I can’t say pants, I’m left with underwear.

Page 41 of the police report states "two (2) socks, two (2) boots,
jeans, shorts, shirt, and an orange reflective vest".
In the USA underpants are sometimes referred to as 'shorts'.

 

[capitola51]

I notice in the police report that both his jeans and socks were all located inside out.

Doesn't that speak of someone who was undressing in a hurry? Particularly his jeans. Like he couldn't wait to take them off, so just did it any which way.

And, to take his jeans off, he must have taken his boots off first.....and boots are the one thing you'd need on in that terrain.

How odd this case is. There are always more questions than answers.

I was thinking about that. MOO it would be typical for a one handed person to remove clothes and leave them inside out whether in a hurry or not. Ken noted in the police interview that DR's boot laces were undone that morning so clearly he didn't use elastic boot laces (popular with one handed folk).

 

[Force Ten]

The 11 miles could be considered an anomaly, a reasonable difference. But combined with the 40+ start attempts, which could not have been performed with the transmission in drive (see

) and also with the external damage to the vehicle, MOO combined they do tend to point to multiple crashes with the final roll being the end point and an airbag-inducing crash earlier. When the air bags deploy the controller also cuts the fuel pump and has to be reset. I'd love to see the browser search history on DR's phone that morning to see if he looked up the post airbag deploy reset sequence (that would also give us a better range of timings).

I would imagine with the bag being deployed everything probably shuts down which is probably why it wouldn’t start. I have a jeep, there’s no manual gear shift.

I keep forgetting he’s one handed. I can’t imagine driving in that terrain with such a disability. It may have contributed to the rollover/crash.

 

[annpats]

Ken noted in the police interview that DR's boot laces were undone that morning so clearly he didn't use elastic boot laces (popular with one handed folk).

His boot laces were undone? Did he usually walk around like that? Sometimes? Never? Always?

Because it doesn't sound great on the safety side of things, not for driving, and least of all if you have a scientific field job!

Plus, walking around with your laces undone looks like something isn't right.

 

[capitola51]

His boot laces were undone? Did he usually walk around like that? Sometimes? Never? Always?

Because it doesn't sound great on the safety side of things, not for driving, and least of all if you have a scientific field job!

Plus, walking around with your laces undone looks like something isn't right.

All I know is, in the police report page 23 Kenneth stated "HE ALSO NOTED THAT DANIEL'S SHOES WERE NOT TIED." (caps due to direct copy and paste) but the widely publicized picture of him (example here https://thelambdas.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/HELP-US-FIND-DANIEL.png) has the brown work boots tied.
MOO it might be reasonable that Ken noted the untied laces correctly and that DR had untied laces for the remainder of the day. If he was wearing the same style pants he would have had to take the boots off before the pants anyways.

 

[Evilxelvis138]

All I know is, in the police report page 23 Kenneth stated "HE ALSO NOTED THAT DANIEL'S SHOES WERE NOT TIED." (caps due to direct copy and paste) but the widely publicized picture of him (example here https://thelambdas.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/HELP-US-FIND-DANIEL.png) has the brown work boots tied.
MOO it might be reasonable that Ken noted the untied laces correctly and that DR had untied laces for the remainder of the day. If he was wearing the same style pants he would have had to take the boots off before the pants anyways.

The boots in the picture don’t look like field work boots to me. They don’t look steel toed, and look more of a fashionable boot with both the style and the purple tinged laces… IMO. But - there are definitely people who wear non traditional boots for work, and with composites it could be safety toed… but they look a bit more of something not used for safety boots for a field/ construction type of job.

 

[JJ Ray]

So you are speculating the crash happened, air bags deployed, 48 ignition attempts, car starts, he tries to go up embankment and then rolls?

I am only relating the information I know. The Buckeye PD outside crash expert thinks that may be the case as I laid out it my comment.

IMO it was a single event, impact and roll. The odometer display showing an "extra" 11 miles from EDR odometer reading is simple variance that seems to exist on Jeeps. Certain interruptions of power to recorders in the Engine Control Module might cause data variances and has been noted by Jeep repair mechanics. The 46 extra ignitions can be restart efforts or a combination of restart efforts, wrecker operator, or purely conjecture, a few faulty attempts to download the EDR data, or a combination of several.

 

[JJ Ray]

The thing that stands out to me is that the Jeep isn’t in park or neutral. The Jeep being in “drive” doesn’t make sense to me. Were the gears stuck? Did the towing company and police do most of the ignition cycles - maybe.

The 11 miles has always bothered me. Are there statistics regarding the extra mileage? What exactly causes that?

MOO

IMO Power interruptions to the Airbag Control Module that consistently update Odometer Field (Database talk). Depending on the programming on how data is updated and overwritten via info from Engine Control Module could "carry forward" the lagging discrepancy.

 

[JJ Ray]

Can't remember where I read this vehicle's box has capacity to record weight of the driver. Is that bogus? Would really be helpful if true.

I have never read that in my research.

 

[JJ Ray]

bbm

Just occurred to me -- if he climbed out of that Jeep onto an anthill he might have stripped fast.

@mlhenn @JJ Ray is this likely where the vehicle was found? (Haven't lived in Arizona since 1985.)

jmho ymmv lrr

It not impossible. I did not note any ant activity in that ravine at least from July 25th and then on 4 other occasions.

 

[JJ Ray]

No underwear was found? Either he wasn’t wearing any, or he wandered off just in his underwear. It may mean nothing, but if he did usually wear underwear, it indicates that he may have been looking for someone to help. It’s a bit weird if someone approached you asking for help if only have underwear on, but, really, really weird if they are completely naked.

If he kept his underwear on, that could be significant in trying to determine his state of mind. It could indicate that he had the mental capacity to know he needed to find help and not to do this completely naked.

Lots of use of the word ‘underwear’, because in the UK, pants are underwear, so as I can’t say pants, I’m left with underwear.

So, his "shorts"/underwear was found at the scene. In an interview with Jeff McGrath on video he showed the clothing found. I can't remember exact but they looked like Boxer Athletic style shorts. I guess you could wear as underwear or as athletic shorts. They may have been a little on the tighter side knitted JCR.

What's not known is if he had a lighter change of clothes in his car. Many field workers do have extra shoes, shirts, etc. A basketball was found in the car. Which might explain the choice of his "underwear".

 

[JJ Ray]

The 11 miles could be considered an anomaly, a reasonable difference. But combined with the 40+ start attempts, which could not have been performed with the transmission in drive (see

) and also with the external damage to the vehicle, MOO combined they do tend to point to multiple crashes with the final roll being the end point and an airbag-inducing crash earlier. When the air bags deploy the controller also cuts the fuel pump and has to be reset. I'd love to see the browser search history on DR's phone that morning to see if he looked up the post airbag deploy reset sequence (that would also give us a better range of timings).

If you think the 11 miles is a reasonable anomaly and you conclude "multiple" crashes...to be clear...
1) Are you agreeing with the Buckeye hired crash expert who mentioned the possibility of wreck in ravine with airbag deployment, but no initial roll, restarted and attempted to drive on up and then pitched left and rolled to final resting place?
2) Or are you saying after he left the worksite and was driving around those 22 or so miles he wrecked that did not deploy airbags, then continued driving and then ended up in Ravine with airbag deployment, rolled, then attempted starts.
THANKS!

 

[JJ Ray]

I was thinking about that. MOO it would be typical for a one handed person to remove clothes and leave them inside out whether in a hurry or not. Ken noted in the police interview that DR's boot laces were undone that morning so clearly he didn't use elastic boot laces (popular with one handed folk).

My exact conclusion.

 

[I wonder]

Thank you. In the UK shorts are trousers that are knee length or shorter and are worn in the summer, which made sense in a hot area. I’ve added that to my every increasing list of Americanisations!

 

[capitola51]

If you think the 11 miles is a reasonable anomaly and you conclude "multiple" crashes...to be clear...
1) Are you agreeing with the Buckeye hired crash expert who mentioned the possibility of wreck in ravine with airbag deployment, but no initial roll, restarted and attempted to drive on up and then pitched left and rolled to final resting place?
2) Or are you saying after he left the worksite and was driving around those 22 or so miles he wrecked that did not deploy airbags, then continued driving and then ended up in Ravine with airbag deployment, rolled, then attempted starts.
THANKS!

MOO is that DR was on his way back to Sun Valley Parkway and through a series of errors ended up driving into a survival situation. We will never know exactly how the Jeep ended up where it was found, but we do know that at the time the airbags deployed the Jeep was doing around 30 mph with a throttle setting between 77% and 28% for the last 5 seconds before the impact that triggered the airbags.
From page 31 of the police report "...it appeared that he drove over several bushes before ending up in the ravine..."
The subsequent 42 'ignition on' events recorded do seem a little high to be completely accounted for by recovery and/or subsequent downloads. It would have been difficult to execute 'ignition on' with the Jeep at 90 degrees to the ground and besides, the transmission was still in drive when the Jeep was found. So DR would have had to put the Jeep in park, execute the (lets say) 38 ignition cycles, then put it back into drive again. Improbable.
The damage to the Jeep seems a little too extensive to be a single rollover, and the rear roof was partially wedged under the Jeep in its final resting position. The two gouge marks on the drivers side A pillar have not been mentioned recently but could be significant as there does not seem to be anything in the ravine that would leave that signature.
So my long answer is that the airbags may have been deployed at some point before the final position in the ravine.

 

[PromPeace12]

MOO is that DR was on his way back to Sun Valley Parkway and through a series of errors ended up driving into a survival situation. We will never know exactly how the Jeep ended up where it was found, but we do know that at the time the airbags deployed the Jeep was doing around 30 mph with a throttle setting between 77% and 28% for the last 5 seconds before the impact that triggered the airbags.
From page 31 of the police report "...it appeared that he drove over several bushes before ending up in the ravine..."
The subsequent 42 'ignition on' events recorded do seem a little high to be completely accounted for by recovery and/or subsequent downloads. It would have been difficult to execute 'ignition on' with the Jeep at 90 degrees to the ground and besides, the transmission was still in drive when the Jeep was found. So DR would have had to put the Jeep in park, execute the (lets say) 38 ignition cycles, then put it back into drive again. Improbable.
The damage to the Jeep seems a little too extensive to be a single rollover, and the rear roof was partially wedged under the Jeep in its final resting position. The two gouge marks on the drivers side A pillar have not been mentioned recently but could be significant as there does not seem to be anything in the ravine that would leave that signature.
So my long answer is that the airbags may have been deployed at some point before the final position in the ravine.

"Throttle setting 77% and 28% for the last 5 seconds before the impact that triggered the airbags"... does this suggest releasing the gas pedal seconds before impact?

Also, vehicle found on it's side, in drive, boot wedged under. Fuel system shuts off after airbag deployment has been said. Could car have been in an upright position, DR have it in Drive, trying to start it 40+ times but car won't move. Gets out of car, takes off clothes & boots. And then jeep rolls over on side afterwards, due to position in ravine or other event?

 

[PromPeace12]

Is there anything to suggest another vehicle could have pushed the jeep afterwards, after airbag deployment, causing it to roll over & land on its side?

 

[JJ Ray]

"Throttle setting 77% and 28% for the last 5 seconds before the impact that triggered the airbags"... does this suggest releasing the gas pedal seconds before impact?

Also, vehicle found on ndt's side, in drive, boot wedged under. Fuel system shuts off after airbag deployment has been said. Could car have been in an upright position, DR have it in Drive, trying to start it 40+ times but car won't move. Gets out of car, takes off clothes & boots. And then jeep rolls over on side afterwards, due to position in ravine or other event?

Buckeye PD latest crash expert leaves that impression. That car hits ravine, stalls, gets restarted put in D (still in D when found), then the car jerks to the left and the slope/momentum starts the roll to the left.

IMO the boot is under the car because either;
a) he tried to crawl under and get leverage to roll it the final 1/4 to get back on its wheels. Crawling back out it slipped off, or
b) when he was disrobing he kicked the boot off (possiblly still untied and they look united in both video that McGrath is featured in showing the car and the clothing). And it ended up under the car .

As far as pushing....There is no damage to the rear of the car as far as you can see in photos and video.

 

[TGIRecovered]

I just listened to a very detailed interview with Daniel’s father.
My impression from listening to Mr. Robinson’s own words is that the Buckeye PD investigation looks better on paper than it actually was or is. This interview was not about slamming police, it was about looking at all of the evidence found by Daniel’s family and volunteers in addition to the information in police reports. IMO there is definitely foul play somewhere.
I’m not going to single out which interview I listened to since it’s not in MSM and I can’t link it. I’m sure there are several interviews out there to be found. MOO

Daniel’s website is pleasehelpfinddaniel.com.