AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #5

[DairyGirl]

I don't want to say this, but the podcast I have been listening to is on the necessity to always expand your "what if" base...how to never forget that there is an exception, and never make the facts fit. Accepting that if they don't fit, they aren't fact.

On that note, here goes.
How do we know, how do the police know that that child she had with her in San Antonio,wasn't a borrowed baby? How do we know that she wasn't paid by the Smiths to do their dirty work? They don't transport stolen babies, it's too much risk, so maybe they pay others to do it...EJ takes Gabe to Nashville, drops him off, picks up another child, takes him to San Antonio, where she gives him to a couple at the park, as she was supposed to, and then, alone, gets on the bus.
Just theory, and it would all hinge on the baby in San Antonio not being Gabe. But if it wasn't family or close friend that saw them at that park, isn't it just an assumption that she had Gabe, or did she in all actuality only have a blond male child roughly the same age?

Gotta go back to class now. I would love it if the theory gets picked apart before I get back. I don't like this theory.

Being that EJ wasn't really the maternal type, I can't see her taking care of someone elses child for any amount of time. She didn't even want to be bothered with her own child.

 

[smart blonde]

Looks like EJ is saying that LM may not be Gabriel's father.

.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/s...-in-Tempe-missing/6PhW8F-82kSl7PwFqFdGgw.cspx

Biological or not, he has bonded with Gabriel since Gabriel's birth.

In my mind, and in my heart, Logan is Gabriel's father.

Elizabeth is such a witch. (or some other rhyming word).

I'm betting she never mentioned to Logan that he may not be the father until she filled out the court papers. She just goes with whatever suits her needs at any given time.

 

[DairyGirl]

Biological or not, he has bonded with Gabriel since Gabriel's birth.

In my mind, and in my heart, Logan is Gabriel's father.

Elizabeth is such a witch. (or some other rhyming word).

I'm betting she never mentioned to Logan that he may not be the father until she filled out the court papers. She just goes with whatever suits her needs at any given time.

And since she was all about hurting LM, she may of just made that up on the spot to hurt him. After all, she said she killed the baby to hurt him. She knew the way to get at him.

 

[time]

I don't want to say this, but the podcast I have been listening to is on the necessity to always expand your "what if" base...how to never forget that there is an exception, and never make the facts fit. Accepting that if they don't fit, they aren't fact.

On that note, here goes.
How do we know, how do the police know that that child she had with her in San Antonio,wasn't a borrowed baby? How do we know that she wasn't paid by the Smiths to do their dirty work? They don't transport stolen babies, it's too much risk, so maybe they pay others to do it...EJ takes Gabe to Nashville, drops him off, picks up another child, takes him to San Antonio, where she gives him to a couple at the park, as she was supposed to, and then, alone, gets on the bus.
Just theory, and it would all hinge on the baby in San Antonio not being Gabe. But if it wasn't family or close friend that saw them at that park, isn't it just an assumption that she had Gabe, or did she in all actuality only have a blond male child roughly the same age?

Gotta go back to class now. I would love it if the theory gets picked apart before I get back. I don't like this theory.

I think you've just pointed out how many scenarios COULD actually incorporate the facts we have.

We assume that she was seen with Gabe

We assume she went to Victoria (maybe) because a phone she had pinged in that area.

And so on ... we have to assume some things, but it's nice to read y our post and keep thinking that we can change scenarios and the facts we really do know, still fit without discarding them or embelishing them to mean something that isn't really a fact that we know

I think there's just too much we don't know except the Gabriel is gone, the Smith's are hinky, and Elizabeth somehow got to Florida!

 

[A_Closer_Look]

I don't want to say this, but the podcast I have been listening to is on the necessity to always expand your "what if" base...how to never forget that there is an exception, and never make the facts fit. Accepting that if they don't fit, they aren't fact.

On that note, here goes.
How do we know, how do the police know that that child she had with her in San Antonio,wasn't a borrowed baby? How do we know that she wasn't paid by the Smiths to do their dirty work? They don't transport stolen babies, it's too much risk, so maybe they pay others to do it...EJ takes Gabe to Nashville, drops him off, picks up another child, takes him to San Antonio, where she gives him to a couple at the park, as she was supposed to, and then, alone, gets on the bus.
Just theory, and it would all hinge on the baby in San Antonio not being Gabe. But if it wasn't family or close friend that saw them at that park, isn't it just an assumption that she had Gabe, or did she in all actuality only have a blond male child roughly the same age?

Gotta go back to class now. I would love it if the theory gets picked apart before I get back. I don't like this theory.

How do we know it was even EJ at the park for that matter then? It could have been someone else with a baby.

I'm thinking though, the check in at the hotel would likely lead investigators to an amount of time that would allow EJ to drive from Tempe to San Antonio, and not much else. Cell phone pings likely also play a role in placing her in certain areas along her path.

If we believe TPS at all (not saying we do! :crazy: just theorizing here) then EJ talked to her the whole trip except for 1 day. She said something like, "this was the only day she wouldn't speak to us verbally" meaning the 27th I think. So her cell phone would have been pinging during the trip, up to the 27th at least, which makes sense when you weigh in LE's statement of Victoria being the "last" ping.

I do agree 100% though, I personally need to expand my "what if!"

 

[smart blonde]

<snip>If the Smiths did arrange for someone to take Gabriel why would EJ sit in jail to protect people she hardly knows?<snip>Sadly, all evidence so far points to Elizabeth murdering Gabriel. I hope and pray it's not true. It's obvious she didn't want him and she did not want Logan to have him. She wanted him to vanish from her life altogether so hopefully she did just give him away. But, she has a history of violence, anger problems, neglect and deception. She texted Logan and said she killed their baby and dumped him in the garbage. No innocent mother would ever say that, no matter how much she wanted to shock or hurt someone. Listen carefully to her jailhouse phone interview. Everytime she is asked about Gabriel, such as, "do you think he is safe" or "do you know if he is alive", she will pause or stumble over her words. You can tell when she is being deceptive because she will ask a question back to stall while she thinks of an answer, like "what do you mean?" Or she will say "beeeeecaaause, I trusted them" really drawing out the first word to stall.

IMO, EJ is for sure guilty of whatever evil thing has happened to Gabriel. The Smiths are guilty of bad judgement, arrogance, lack of intelligence, manipulation, but not evil.

(above respectfully snipped by smart blonde)
I agree with this completely. I wish this were not the case, but sadly, I think it is.

There is an old quote by Dr. Seuss, that I believe applies to this case:
"Sometimes the questions are complicated, and the answers are simple".

I feel Elizabeth may have given the answer to where Gabriel is, and what she did with him, in the text message she sent to Logan.

(But, boy, I hope we're wrong, and he is found safe and sound).

 

[time]

Hadn't read this

http://www.kpho.com/news/22197770/detail.html

Johnson's first phone call from jail Sunday morning was to her grandfather, Bob Johnson.

Bob Johnson said, "Well my telephone rang and it was my darling granddaughter calling me from the 4th Avenue Maricopa County jail."

Just hours after her booking photo was snapped, Elizabeth was calling to say hello.

"She seemed in a very happy, upbeat mood, " Bob Johnson said. "I guess in her mind she's accomplished her goal, which was to adopt her son, give him to somebody."

Johnson says it was a short talk that only lasted a couple of minutes. He said he didn't ask any questions about where 8 month old Gabriel might be.

He said, "I chose not to, that she had stated what happened and I knew we were on a recorded line and she isn't going to tell me anything on a recorded line that would be of any value."

 

[mysticrose]

I thought I had read somewhere that the courts had deemed Logan Gabe's father and it was ordered for him to be put on the birth certificate and Gabes last name changed , I know I did not dream it. I'll see if I can find it....

 

[time]

How do we know it was even EJ at the park for that matter then? It could have been someone else with a baby.

I'm thinking though, the check in at the hotel would likely lead investigators to an amount of time that would allow EJ to drive from Tempe to San Antonio, and not much else. Cell phone pings likely also play a role in placing her in certain areas along her path.

If we believe TPS at all (not saying we do! :crazy: just theorizing here) then EJ talked to her the whole trip except for 1 day. She said something like, "this was the only day she wouldn't speak to us verbally" meaning the 27th I think. So her cell phone would have been pinging during the trip, up to the 27th at least, which makes sense when you weigh in LE's statement of Victoria being the "last" ping.

I do agree 100% though, I personally need to expand my "what if!"

I don't think we even know if the cell phone was recovered, do we? Or the GPS device.

 

[time]

I thought I had read somewhere that the courts had deemed Logan Gabe's father and it was ordered for him to be put on the birth certificate and Gabes last name changed , I know I did not dream it. I'll see if I can find it....

haha, no, if you did dream it, I had the same dream!

 

[A_Closer_Look]

I don't think we even know if the cell phone was recovered, do we? Or the GPS device.

I have not heard conclusively that either were recovered, no.

 

[DairyGirl]

Hadn't read this

http://www.kpho.com/news/22197770/detail.html

What on earth does she have to be happy about? Is she enjoying all the attention? People want something for her and she holds all the cards. Is that it? I don't care if it was recorded, I would have demanded she tell me what she did with the baby. Why is he tiptoeing around her? Is he so afraid of her rage that he just plays along with whatever she says? This is so frustrating. She is the only one who has all the answers and she thinks it's a game. It isn't. A baby's life is at stake here.

 

[Ives]

I just found a little "insider" info on going to and from Mex. illegally. You may not need a passport going onto mexico if you are Walking in! They rarely stop the walker iners, LOL, but walking out yes. there is some walkway next to the bridges??
It is not uncommon at all, to pay someone you do not even know to take a baby or child either way! There are actually people that specialize in children only, not adults! For the most part it is for a good purpose, as in reuniteing children with their parents that are already here in the states.
Also, "personal info and paperwork" can be bought real cheap, 2-300 bucks to "borrow" ones info. people sale theirs and their childrens info for this purpose regularly.
The thing that is really interesting IF there is a mexico connection(Let's hope not!) San Antonio is a "checkpoint" of sorts, for coyotes(people that get you over) to drop off immigrants. Victoria will sometimes be used under certain circumstances, as other towns between here and there. BUT San antonio is a "key player". Keep in mind, these "transports" work both ways.

EJ was here in SA for a week? she paid for a week in advance. I do not think it is some coincidence, that her time was up, and she just happened to find a couple in a park. The park she speaks of, is on the other side of town. the side she was on, is not the best. IMOO she was here that long for some reason. Did she leave early from AZ because of the court date? and the handoff was not until a later date? If she was too ask a coyote the best way out of dodge, they would have pointed to one of the bus stations like she took. They require only cash. no ID.

Hopefully, all this is not worth the time it took to type, and baby Gabriel, is somewhere safe, here in the states, ready to be found. If he is in mex. I fear he will never be found.

 

[Marigold]

I thought I had read somewhere that the courts had deemed Logan Gabe's father and it was ordered for him to be put on the birth certificate and Gabes last name changed , I know I did not dream it. I'll see if I can find it....

Here's the paternity judgment:
http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Family Court/012010/m4037032.pdf

 

[Chemeria]

1pm tomorrow press conference with new information being said about the case.

 

[BeanE]

"She seemed in a very happy, upbeat mood, " Bob Johnson said.

If pictures come out of her on a dance pole with a new tattoo, I'm going to Baker Act myself.

 

[Ives]

I thought I had read somewhere that the courts had deemed Logan Gabe's father and it was ordered for him to be put on the birth certificate and Gabes last name changed , I know I did not dream it. I'll see if I can find it....

here is a question, By EJ not showing up, does that make her statement that L is not the father, null and void?? Not sure how to word what I am asking, Like a witness who does not show up, to say XYZ, than XYZ didn't happen, if they don't have a witness. IDK.

 

[time]

What on earth does she have to be happy about? Is she enjoying all the attention? People want something for her and she holds all the cards. Is that it? I don't care if it was recorded, I would have demanded she tell me what she did with the baby. Why is he tiptoeing around her? Is he so afraid of her rage that he just plays along with whatever she says? This is so frustrating. She is the only one who has all the answers and she thinks it's a game. It isn't. A baby's life is at stake here.

I'm having a difficult time figuring out grandpa.

Someone said earlier that he was a lot more involved and knew a lot more than we thought - like knowing about the adoption to the Smith's (and I forget what else), but it also seems to me like gramps is living in his own little bubble sometimes

 

[Chemeria]

G is H's Bio-mom? is that what SM is saying? I dont know for sure but if that is the case she is TS's daughter and why in HECK would TS end up with her I thought that G didn't even like TS >>>--->>>>


edited : out names...

 

[time]

"She seemed in a very happy, upbeat mood, " Bob Johnson said.

If pictures come out of her on a dance pole with a new tattoo, I'm going to Baker Act myself.

Oh, too funny!