AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #11

[TxLady2]

Polygraphs are so debatable. I am as honest as the day is long and have never been able to pass one.

In this case it may be a fail because of one question answered which could have been answered in a few different ways. Example: Question: To your knowledge, did your nephew, JM have anything to do with the disappearance of Isabel? SC answers: No but in his gut he feels he may have while in his head he is answering the "to your knowledge" part.

Another reason may be if they failed the speculation goes through the roof, obviously everyone would want to know what they failed on. If they passed with flying colours the focus goes right off them and gives a confidence that can make them start acting differently.

Police have advised them not to answer that question, and they aren't. For whatever reason the police believe withholding that information may cause something else to happen (maybe)

I have seen many a false positive and/or negative with the most obvious questions.

I failed on my address! Do you live at ....... my answer: Yes .... They knew I did, I knew I did and it came back I was lying lol I can't explain that one, other questions I have failed on made perfect sense as to the fail.

..... and no, you are all not chatting with a hardened criminal - I was intrigued and doing a story on it and underwent one, then because I passed when I shouldn't have and failed when I shouldn't have we decided to do more at different periods - just for giggles.

I don't think they would ask a question in that manner about someone else on a polygraph. They might ask "Do you know who took your daughter?" but they wouldn't name another person in any questions. Polygraphs are generally aimed towards the individual taking them, not to their knowledge of any other person who may or may not be involved.
ETA: They usually ask straightforward yes or no questions. Like "did you have anything to do with your daughter's disappearance?" and "do you know where your daughter is?"

 

[txanmom]

The really curious thing for me about this case is that the police had a search warrant to remove items from their car that doesn't run. They removed a pillow and sheets or blankets. What do they think happened it the car??

Actually, one of the curious/strange things about this case.

Good morning everyone!

This I was thinking about last night. Good point. We never heard if any test results have come back. The car thing was odd to me at the time, and then I forgot. Another thing that comes to mind, yesterday BC said they had to have a cleaning crew come in because LE had sprayed some kind of chemical all over the boys' rooms. What chemical do you all think? Luminol? wonder what came of that.

also, I haven't made it all the way through the messages yet, sorry if this was already brought up.


As to the uncle being self-appointed spokesman. I saw the comments some of you saw that some members of the family were unhappy with him doing that. They were in the comment section after the first articles that came out on I *believe* abc.com. Of course that would be considered, gossip/rumour. Since SC yesterday said his family had come into town and now left, I assume that the family down the street is BC's mom/dad, or at least on her side of the family. What if JM was staying the night over there that Friday/Saturday? Then that might explain why he was there so early to help look. Especially since I think he is on BC side of the family? Isn't that what we figured out?

 

[TxLady2]

I watched todays interview with Isabel's parents and I´m sorry to say, I STILL get a REALLY strange feeling watching thise two people.
Especially the father, but also the mother to some extend.
At no point, in a pretty long intreview, do any of them really brake down in tears, which I find odd.

Rebecca, the mother, have a minor brake down (almost crying) when she is talking about how hard it is for her to be on camera!!!??? I mean the only time she is in tears is when she talk about how hard it is for her to be on camera, not at any point when she talk about her missing daughter Isabel.
It's like she feel most vunerable when she is talking about somthing that is hard for herself, insted of when talking about her daughter missing.

And the father, well IMO he come across EXSTREAMLY odd...90% of the time he seem totaly forced, and IMHO superficailly, in his emotions, and his voice has NOT a true sad/distraught groundline, he is kind of trying to hard to look/sound distraught and concerned.

Go watch/listend to Rebecca's brother in the link above, HE seem genuinly sad/distraught, both emotionally and in his voice.
Go watch the parents and then right after Rebecca's brother and you will see the IMHO tremendous difference.

I´m not saying that the parents was behind Isabel's disappearance, but I'm sad to say; I STILL would not ruel them out.

People can only cry just so much, and then the tears just dry up. There is a limit to how much anyone is able to cry. Not directing this to you specifically, but I really dislike families of missing loved ones judged by the amount of tears they cry after a period of time. That is IMO very unfair and has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. If it did, our prisons would be full of people who were innocent and many guilty people would be walking around free.
Regarding the comment from the mother about how hard it is for her to be on camera, while that might sound odd to many of us, if you think about it, I'm sure it woud be hard for anyone who has a child missing to be on camera, because they know they are being scrutinized. How can we know how they are supposed to react, when we don't know them? We have not seen them in any other situation other than this one, so what is there to compare their emotions to? How did they react to things before this happened? We don't know, so I think it is unfair to say they are faking or trying too hard, when we have nothing else to go by. JMHO.

 

[LisaB]

MOORE: Well, there`s an alley, Nancy, right behind us (snip), and that`s where our cameras are trained on.

GRACE: What kind of activity?

MOORE: Again, it was just people wandering through alley, vehicles coming up and down through the alley and vehicles walking (snip)
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/27/ng.01.html


I have an alley behind my home and live near bars and shopping areas, but it is rare that anyone drives down the alley. Mr. Moore's statement made it sound like there was more than a few cars/people traveling through Isabel's alley early Sat. morning. Why were people driving and wandering through there at that time?

1. He must have been nervous when he was interviewed. What would statement analysis have to say about his statement that he saw "vehicles walking"? *LOL*

2. I have an alley behind my (row)house. It is often too cluttered to drive through. Since the county stopped bulk trash pickup and yard waste pickup. There are frequently sofas, entertainment centers, big TV sets, and mattresses/boxsprings in the way. Eventually someone takes them to the landfill or they get run over by trucks and fall apart.

The trash and recycling trucks use the alley, and some people have parking in the back of their homes and use the alley for access. When I bring home garden supplies, I use the alley so I can drop them right at the garden instead of carrying them through the house. LOTS of people walk it, mostly teens headed to one another's homes or a convenience store.

Our alley gets all sorts of tradffic... Last week taking out trash I found a pint bottle in a paper bag on the rear lawn and yesterday my daughter noticed 2 condoms in the yard.

 

[TxLady2]

I have always thought Isabel knew her abductor. By making the window a set-up that would immediately make it look like a total stranger that originated in the alley, hopped the fence and came in through the window.

What made me question that was the comments about the blinds (and I think curtains) being moved to the side. If you are a stranger and getting in that window and then out I think I would raise the blinds rather than push everything to the side, it would make less noise. It was just too CSI for me.

If the cord of the blinds was pretty short, it might be kind of difficult to raise the blinds from outside the window. We tie our blind cords up so that they don't drop to the floor where the pets get tangled in them. Then when the blinds are lowered to the base of the window, the cord is actually about halfway up the blinds. Not easy to reach in from outside to pull the cord.
In my mind, that window is how the perp got IN the house, but not necessarily how they got OUT holding a 6 y.o. child. If there was a back door close by, they could have grabbed her, held one hand over her mouth, or threatened her they would kill her if she made a noise and quickly slipped out the door. I wouldn't be so quick to discount the window, or declare it a setup, simply because it turned out to be the point of entry in other cases. Besides, LE is not as much concerned with how the perp got out as they are how he got in. Make sense?

 

[txanmom]

That's exactly what I thought! Why no pictures with the boys? Why only Isa? I'd think an "uncle" would have more fun with boys that age, you can do more fun activities together (fishing, hiking whatever boys like) than with a little girl. That's just my opinion.
I personally find it very odd that he was the first one to talk, for what I understood he hasn't been part of the family for that long.
I really didn't like that.

I'd also like to say this, IF (big if here) he was responsible for something, I don't see a reason for him to take her away. Sadly I see more a situation where something he did went wrong and he tried to cover it. So I really hope that is not what happened and she is alive.

In case of a stranger, it must be someone who noticed her somewhere and observed (stalked) the family before entering the house. It must have been someone who was able to figure out the layout of the house to be able to act and not end up in the wrong room or get the attention of someone else in the home.

bbm, I agree with this. IF it was him, and he was already johnny-on-the-spot that early in the morning right after she was discovered missing, then she would already be gone.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

If this was a stranger abduction, the perp wouldn't care about "setting up" a crime scene, imo.

He'd be in and out in a flash.

:seeya:

BBM: I totally agree ... and as you said, a "stranger" would want to get the hello out of there !

There is only one reason to make it "look like" a "crime scene" : That is someone who lives in -- OR -- has access to the home ...

:moo::moo::moo:

 

[Taminator]

People can only cry just so much, and then the tears just dry up. There is a limit to how much anyone is able to cry. Not directing this to you specifically, but I really dislike families of missing loved ones judged by the amount of tears they cry after a period of time. That is IMO very unfair and has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. If it did, our prisons would be full of people who were innocent and many guilty people would be walking around free.
Regarding the comment from the mother about how hard it is for her to be on camera, while that might sound odd to many of us, if you think about it, I'm sure it woud be hard for anyone who has a child missing to be on camera, because they know they are being scrutinized. How can we know how they are supposed to react, when we don't know them? We have not seen them in any other situation other than this one, so what is there to compare their emotions to? How did they react to things before this happened? We don't know, so I think it is unfair to say they are faking or trying too hard, when we have nothing else to go by. JMHO.

Totally agree.

There's no handbook on how to act when your child just disappears, as far as I know. There are people who don't cry because they feel like it's a private thing. Personally, I cry over soap operas, TV commercials, and all sorts of things. When my daughter went missing (she walked out the back door while I was sick on the couch w/o my knowledge for about 15-30 mins), I wandered around the house for what seemed like an eternity trying to figure out how to get dressed.

Our bodies do strange things when we are under extremely stressful conditions. The only way I can describe it is that you feel like you are in a tunnel and everything going on around you is blocked from your view. Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else.

 

[txanmom]

Been following this case to much. Just woke up because someone was yelling to me in my dream "gringo Santa Maria took Isabel Celis!". Some just get to you more than others and this has to me

P.s. I'm pretty sure I've never used the word gringo ever. I think I've only seen it on tv lol

I know what you mean. I had a dream about this last weekend, that I posted on here it was so real. This one has me too.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

IMHO, I think the parents haven't said what the results were because they failed. Or one of them did.

And as for LE releasing the results, I believe another poster said that LE never releases LD results until much later in an investigation, but IDK.

I personally think LDs are crap anyway which is why they aren't admissible in court. JMO.


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Honestly would it really matter to the general public if they said they passed? Then the reporters would rush right to LE to verify it and of course like everything in this case LE is going to say 'no comment' then some would take it that the parents lied because LE wouldnt confirm they passed. Maybe that is why Mark Lunsford never commented on his poly results in the media or maybe he knew he owed the media and the public no explanation.

The families like the Celis are in a no win postition when it comes to the nightly talk shows or internet chatter.

Thank goodness they do not have to prove their innocence to the media or the public or innocent families would have been tried and convicted many times over by now.

IMO

 

[txanmom]

Totally agree.

There's no handbook on how to act when your child just disappears, as far as I know. There are people who don't cry because they feel like it's a private thing. Personally, I cry over soap operas, TV commercials, and all sorts of things. When my daughter went missing (she walked out the back door while I was sick on the couch w/o my knowledge for about 15-30 mins), I wandered around the house for what seemed like an eternity trying to figure out how to get dressed.

Our bodies do strange things when we are under extremely stressful conditions. The only way I can describe it is that you feel like you are in a tunnel and everything going on around you is blocked from your view. Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else.

I know exactly what you are saying. I lost my son at DisneyWorld approx. 3 years ago for 2 hours. We had to notify the park officials. They took me and my dd to the park office while my husband and the officials looked for him. I do not remember much other than I was crying inconsolably, and started vomiting and hyperventilating. I upset my poor dd terribly. It was horrible!!!! There was a very nice young lady that was trying to talk to me, to calm me down and distract me, but I couldn't concentrate on what she was saying. I just kept going over and over in my mind awful scenarios that could have happened. I cannot imagine if it had been over 2 weeks!!

 

[TxLady2]

(snipped for space)

Here's a part of one. http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/17924452/timeline-of-events-one-week-after-isabels-disappearance

Here's another video, I think the same part, but not sure because someone naughty took my computer speakers right now and I can't hear!!! http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...r-old-girl-vanishes-from-tucson-arizona-home/

Make sure to read the abcnews article. It tells more about what the uncle stated only 24 hours after Isabel went missing. Notice the past tense and distancing language.

There was a more complete interview elsewhere, I think on yahoo, but it's way back on thread 4, 5 or 6!

Thanks for the link. I've been wanting to look at that video again.
This guy is in no way related by blood to either of the parents, IMO. He might call himself an uncle, but it would have to be by marriage... not blood related for sure. JMO, of course, but there is absolutely no family resemblance. Might be married to an aunt or cousin, though.

 

[LisaB]

At :53 is a good floor plan of the house. I see the den has an outside door. That must be the room with the two high windows. Is Isa's bedroom the middle bedroom?

The arrow points to Isa's room.

 

[thefragile7393]

The fewer that know a secret the better. I find it hard to believe that the parents could stage a disappearance. Someone would talk......eventually.


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[LisaB]

GF, Who,in your oinion, would benefit from making it look like the window is where she left from ? TIA

I know this was not directed at me, but the obvious answer is that anyone who was (supposedly) sleeping between her room and the actual point of egress. If she went out the window, there's nobody who could have stopped it. But if someone was sleeping in the den and she went out there, or the front door and someone was sleeping in the family room, they'd be questioned about how the kidnapper got past them with Isabel and without waking them, even stopping to free a hand to turn the doorknob and the sound of the door closing.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I really dont know how parents in these same situations hold their dignity and composure all the while knowing that some think they harmed their beautiful missing child. I have been in awe of these families for years.

They are just thrust into the spotlight under the worst circumstances ever imaginable. I am sure LE has told them to not watch the nightly talk shows and some of the internet chatter. That is the best thing they can do is stay away from more negativity when they already have so much on their plate to deal with.

I was glad to see the Celis family say they have not been watching or reading about their daughters case. They dont have to read it...........they are having to live it night and day and are being updated by LE. With LE they get the correct information and not speculative chatter.

God bless them both and may they remain strong.

IMO

 

[Patty G]

That is a very generic floor plan and I would think the size of this house would have 4 bedrooms.

We found a floor plan of a house that is rather close to the Celis house. It shows windows, doors, bathrooms etc.

http://www.azhouseplans.com/images/1838.jpg

I think, but not 100% sure, the Celis house is over 2500 sq. ft.

 

[txanmom]

Here's the official floor plan of the home that KGUN went and got today(it showed the reporter going thru one of the old time slide machines they have at libraries for old newspapers).. Anyway here is an exact replica of the floor plan that showed just how far away the parents bedroom was away from Isa's.. Parents are in the top right(above garage) and Isa's is all the way across the home and diagonal(the farthest distance actually away from parents room)..View attachment 22030



____________________...
Posting via mobile as well as via tablet so plz forgive all typos.. Btwn the sucky touch keyboard and the obsessive auto-correct it's a big ol' mess :crazy:

After staring at this floor plan, I do not know why an abductor would NOT go back out the window. I mean with that room being so far from all the others, and if he made it in without awakening anyone, why would he risk stomping through the house and potentially running into someone. All he had to do was shut her bedroom door if it wasn't already shut and do whatever he wanted or needed to do to get right back out. Plus he would have the cover of the alley and the fortified wall. If he went through the garage, the parents might have heard him since their bedroom is so close. I used to live in a house with a similar layout and I could always hear noises clearly from the garage. Where was the red car in relation to this floorplan? Actually this makes a certain someone look even more guilty. Suppose, that person is down the street with the grandparents. They are asleep. He sneaks down the alley behind Isa's house. Jumps the fence, gets into the window. (heck he coulda unlocked it from inside earlier in the day if he stopped by), then takes her into the red car to do whatever. Then to the dumpster behind party city, then he's back home at gparents. I would really like to know the test results from the car, and the chemical that was sprayed in the rooms. I just think it would be dumb to wander around inside the house once he got in, that bedroom is perfect for this crime, imo (unfortunately). Did the brother's share that other bedroom, or is there another one possibly upstairs? I am unsure if this is a 2 story house or not. It sure is big. My house right now is around 3500 sq. feet. and we have 4 bedrooms plus a really large gameroom upstairs. Their rooms must be massive.

edit to add: ok, I was wrong on the bedroom, I thought it was on the front corner. Yes, I guess the den could have been used as an entrance or exit. Geez, weren't any of the windows/door locked?

 

[thefragile7393]

Been following this case to much. Just woke up because someone was yelling to me in my dream "gringo Santa Maria took Isabel Celis!". Some just get to you more than others and this has to me

P.s. I'm pretty sure I've never used the word gringo ever. I think I've only seen it on tv lol

I was surprised to learn that gabaucho is the more correct word...gringo isn't really used in reality.

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[oceanblueeyes]

The rule is not to bring comments over from Statement Analysis or discuss their comments as that blog is not even allowed to be linked to WS.

What ends up happening is we end up struggling to find fact against what others claim is fact on other sites.

I have read this blog for years and other similiar sites and have come to the determination they are worthless.

I have yet to find one person connected to any case that they didnt find suspicious but then what in the world could they blog about if they found everyone honest? Never mind they were absolutely wrong many times over and in the end the ones they blogged about night and day were totally innocent of any wrongdoing.

They are absolutey not facts and have you ever seen one of these so called experts testify in a criminal case? Even LE/DA realize they are nothing but speculation, imo.

I can understand why WS blocks them from this site.

IMO