AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #15

[LisaB]

Her 911 call is heart breaking " she was wearing little pony tails on the sides of her head " but...Is RC cleared in your minds completely? The one thing we know for sure is that -she "left" the house early that morning...and another thing we know is that she " forgot" look in on her 3 children.

Any thoughts?

I do not BELIEVE that what I am about to say is what happened, however... if everyone in the house was asleep, it is not impossible that she could have taken Isabel with her when she left.

 

[SweetT]

If Sergio is getting death threats, should it be known or published that he is staying right down the street with his parents?

I would certainly think not. :waitasec:

 

[~n/t~]

From the 911 call, Sergio states they all came home and had their showers.

From the brother's 911 call, we get the information that she should have been in pajamas, probably pink or green. This suggests she normally slept in pajamas and had more than one set. If the family came home at 10:30 and she took her shower and let mom braid her hair before she went to bed, why did she put on shorts and a T-shirt instead of her pajamas after her shower?

Stupid as it sounds, is it possible nobody took showers, but Sergio didn't want anyone thinking the kids were dirty and neglected so he embellished a bit? Isabel DID have on blue shorts (and I believe a pink tank top) at the game on the 20th. It sounds as if she may have changed her top (if it got something dribbled on it) but not her shorts before going to bed.

Good point about the shower and the brother's mention of pajamas.

 

[Donjeta]

Just to compare the two cases - many seemed to take the idea that since Terri Horman did not fight the restraining order, it indicated that she was guilty.

Here, we have a statement that SC agreed to a voluntary no contact agreement with CPS. On that fact alone, how does that strike you all? Sign of guilt or something else?

If what Joe Vega says about Sergio and the family being outraged is true it sounds to me that it was more "You're going to agree or else we'll force it" than truly voluntary.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I would consider the mom's 911 panic a lot more realistic if a son/daughter vanishes from their bed.

I don't know that makes her any less scrutinized by LE or the public but it's more of what I would consider "normal" reaction and I think that can be confirmed by many who have experienced a child going missing even if it's for a split second. The reaction is PANIC. Whether it's at home, mall, or parking lot.

I sensed no panic in SC. He didn't even tell TPD to send someone immediately. He remained calm and started talking about what the family did that day, the ballgame he watched on tv and where he was at midnight. Right next to Isa's bedroom.

Well I am a former US Marine and I dont panic, in fact I was trained to ALWAYS keep my cool during any crises and THAT is basic training that is also offered by most police and fire departments and other crises workers, if you ever take such training or listen to such people talk the first thing they tell you and the one thing they ALWAYS stress is the IMPORTANCE of keeping your head during an emergency/crises.


I am certain it would be suggested I am a sociopath if someone seen me in the midst of a crises. If I were to have lost my cool during the emergencies and crises I have been in I would have been brought back from Iraq/Afghanistan in a body bag.


Granted not everyone has had such training but it really isnt out of the norm for some people to be able to remain calm during the most frenzied times.

 

[TheDuchess]

Not really, IMO...Le said isabel was abducted in response to a question from the media, as opposed to walking off on her own, and added that the parents are still not ruled out. Media made this into a different kind of thing, IMO...

OH...ok...gotcha...I am just thinking them confirming she was "abducted" meant by someone other than the parents. I generally don't think of the word "abducted" to be used when referring to the custodial parents. I have never heard it used in this context before.

 

[~n/t~]

If Sergio is getting death threats, should it be known or published that he is staying right down the street with his parents?

lol no As a matter of fact, he should be in hiding perhaps in a different state or country. Cartels are a serious matter and that's why I don't believe that theory. Not saying people shouldn't look at that angle but the facts (as we know them) do not support that theory at all.

 

[liz b.]

And sometimes at the end of a case, all those clamouring that the parents did it are entirely off base (Jaycee Dugard, Shasta Groene, Riley Fox, etc. etc.). On some threads, it sometimes feels as I've I've stumbled into a hang-em-high mentality, the way the parents are targeted.

Respectfully, it's one thing to discuss a person's theory and provide evidence why you discount it. I think it's another to criticize people for theorizing. Often, many threads are simply full of posts about how the parents did it. I like that Isabel's thread has varied theories and lots of avenues of discussion, rather than becoming repetitive.

Personally, I did NOT believe Sommer Thompson's mom was involved in her disappearance and murder.

I did NOT believe Breeana Rodriguez's family was involved in her disappearance and murder.

I did NOT even believe Terri Horman was involced in Kyron's disappearance. Although,after two years,and a lot of reading, I have since changed my mind.

So, I am not a "family did it " poster. But,it's strange. From the very beginning I believed that Isabel's disappearance could be tracd back to her immediate family. I tried to go to other possibilities,but kept coming back to her immediate family...

JMO

 

[spoiledmom]

There are people who seemingly want everyone else to stop considering all potential possibilities with regard to this little girl's disappearance and focus only on Sergio being a pervert and child killer but there is no more evidence to suggest that is the case than there is to suggest some other theories, like involvement with nefarious people. So what gives, why the attempt to steer the discussion away from considering all things and wanting everyone to develop tunnel vision?

If my desire to look at all possible angles mean I shouldnt be taken seriously, that is ok. I have found that being unpopular usually means one is right.

I agree. Having a theory about others being involved does not mean that we are ruling Sergio out. Isn't it possible that since LE is now labeling Isa's disappearance as an abduction, that Sergio may have actually helped this abduction take place? Maybe Sergio was calm during the 911 call because he had been planning for this to happen. Maybe Sergio's life was threatened and he became a coward and decided to offer up his own daughter instead.

Maybe his kids were taken away because while investigating LE learned that Sergio has been putting his family in danger by being involved with the wrong people. Maybe they don't have enough evidence to make an arrest but they have enough for CPS to decide the kids need to be away from him.

What if there is information that LE will not disclose to the public for the safety of Isabel? What if LE is focusing on Sergio instead of a cartel (publicly) because Sergio willingly offered up his daughter? What if he arranged it, confessed this to LE and now they are negotiating with the Cartel so they can get Isabel back alive? Therefore they are waiting to make an arrest until Isa is back home safely?

I know for all of you that don't live in Arizona/Texas states that border to Mexico, it is hard to believe that a cartel would be involved. For most of us that live here, it is easier to believe. It is getting worse and worse and sadly, they do take kids. Some of it is not reported in the media. They are not afraid of cops and they really aren't secret. They are so powerful that sadly, they get away with a lot. If this is happening, there would be a reason that we are not hearing about it. Some things need to be kept quiet until all is said and done. A good thing is that if this is true, most likely Isabel is alive. Otherwise I think it would have been all over the media. These are all my own Theories/Opinions.

 

[Eileen730]

To me that all depends on if the death threats are real or not, or what the reason for the decision is. If he is truly worried about the safety and welfare of his other children, or if it is due to some other reason. :moo:

If there were threats of any kind they would all be in protective custody!
Or out of harms way for the time being!

All jmo!

LE wont let a man receiving death threats walk around if he gets shot
they get a hugeeeeee law suit!

 

[DhyanaAZ]

I read somewhere that it was the manager or a clerk at a neighborhood convenience store. I'm sure the link is on threads where the 9-1-1 call is discussed.

That's an interesting point. (including the post that the above quote was a response to). I had heard one of the sons had run in to party city looking for his sister, but it would be faster to run home than to drive there. Hmmmm 6 minutes seems like an awfully long time to drive. Fwiw we don't really have any convenience stores nearby unless you count the gas station on the NW corner of broadway and craycroft or the liquor store on the east side of craycroft just north of 22nd. So again...hmmmm. I wonder where he was that took 6 minutes to get home by car on a Saturday morning with no traffic.
I'm not implying anything nefarious. I'm just trying to fit the pieces together.

 

[Madeleine74]

Semantics and definitions.

"Abducted" = child did not leave the residence on their own initiative, but someone else was the cause of the child no longer being in the residence. It doesn't tell us who and it doesn't tell us whether the child was alive, dead, injured, not injured.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Points well taken, but when he was on the 911 call and mentioned that his wife just got home and was "kinda freaking out", would you not agree that she was acting what would be considered "normal" in that situation, and therefore, why was he not acting similar to her? And why would he even point that out to the operator?
IMO, he pointed that out to the operator because he was acting the complete opposite of "freaking out", which to me, would not be typical in that situation. JMO of course.

But your points are well taken, as we have to try to give every benefit of the doubt until facts become known as to what has happened.

And you make some mighty fine points yourself my friend.

 

[~n/t~]

Well I am a former US Marine and I dont panic, in fact I was trained to ALWAYS keep my cool during any crises and THAT is basic training that is also offered by most police and fire departments and other crises workers, if you ever take such training or listen to such people talk the first thing they tell you and the one thing they ALWAYS stress is the IMPORTANCE of keeping your head during an emergency/crises.


I am certain it would be suggested I am a sociopath if someone seen me in the midst of a crises. If I were to have lost my cool during the emergencies and crises I have been in I would have been brought back from Iraq/Afghanistan in a body bag.


Granted not everyone has had such training but it really isnt out of the norm for some people to be able to remain calm during the most frenzied times.

If anything, I would think RC would be the one with the more calm disposition considering she's a registered nurse who works in the ER. I'm sure she's had her share of very traumatic experiences in her job.

Sergio is a dental hygienist (or assistant). Sorry still don't know what he is.

 

[PAXIMUS]

And sometimes at the end of a case, all those clamouring that the parents did it are entirely off base (Jaycee Dugard, Shasta Groene, Riley Fox, etc. etc.). On some threads, it sometimes feels as I've I've stumbled into a hang-em-high mentality, the way the parents are targeted.

Respectfully, it's one thing to discuss a person's theory and provide evidence why you discount it. I think it's another to criticize people for theorizing. Often, many threads are simply full of posts about how the parents did it. I like that Isabel's thread has varied theories and lots of avenues of discussion, rather than becoming repetitive.

GREAT post, Anna!

 

[Donjeta]

IMO the Chief made a point in the last presser to say that they haven't ruled any lines of inquiry out.

From ingra's transcription:

But we also want to emphasize that this doesn't mean that we have settled on a path in this investigation. As we've said from the very beginning we are open to multiple paths on this investigation. We're closing the door on any possibilities. We are following up on all the leads and we have investigators and detectives, probably about 12-15 detectives that are assigned to follow external viewpoints on this investigation. The possibility of a stranger abduction or something of that like . And then we have probably 4 detectives or so that are following the possibility is there inside the family involvement. And that's what we have been saying from the beginning. That we're not closing our minds to anything about this investigation.
Police spokeswoman Maria Hawke said investigators have eliminated one theory. "She didn't get up and leave the house on her own," Hawke said. She declined to discuss the evidence that led investigators to make that conclusion or reveal details about who they suspect took her.

AZ AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #14 - Page 52 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Read more: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...ssing-tucson-girl-was-abducted/#ixzz1v3Hnq5l6


The other quote that is in all the articles that say LE confirmed an abduction merely says that they've confirmed she didn't run away on her own but there was somebody else involved. It does not imo rule out custodial parent involvement.

Police spokeswoman Maria Hawke said investigators have eliminated one theory. "She didn't get up and leave the house on her own," Hawke said. She declined to discuss the evidence that led investigators to make that conclusion or reveal details about who they suspect took her.

Read more: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...ssing-tucson-girl-was-abducted/#ixzz1v3Hnq5l6

 

[PAXIMUS]

I agree. Having a theory about others being involved does not mean that we are ruling Sergio out. Isn't it possible that since LE is now labeling Isa's disappearance as an abduction, that Sergio may have actually helped this abduction take place? Maybe Sergio was calm during the 911 call because he had been planning for this to happen. Maybe Sergio's life was threatened and he became a coward and decided to offer up his own daughter instead.

Maybe his kids were taken away because while investigating LE learned that Sergio has been putting his family in danger by being involved with the wrong people. Maybe they don't have enough evidence to make an arrest but they have enough for CPS to decide the kids need to be away from him.

What if there is information that LE will not disclose to the public for the safety of Isabel? What if LE is focusing on Sergio instead of a cartel (publicly) because Sergio willingly offered up his daughter? What if he arranged it, confessed this to LE and now they are negotiating with the Cartel so they can get Isabel back alive? Therefore they are waiting to make an arrest until Isa is back home safely?

I know for all of you that don't live in Arizona/Texas states that border to Mexico, it is hard to believe that a cartel would be involved. For most of us that live here, it is easier to believe. It is getting worse and worse and sadly, they do take kids. Some of it is not reported in the media. They are not afraid of cops and they really aren't secret. They are so powerful that sadly, they get away with a lot. If this is happening, there would be a reason that we are not hearing about it. Some things need to be kept quiet until all is said and done. A good thing is that if this is true, most likely Isabel is alive. Otherwise I think it would have been all over the media. These are all my own Theories/Opinions.

Lots of awesome and win in this post.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Just FYI... Even though I may say somethings in SC's defence or speculate in his court, It DOE'S NOT mean I think he is innocent or not involved however just like LE I'm not getting tunnel vision and only focusing on him.

That said... as I said in the last thread.... Aside from the parent's and SC for a moment let's shift gears and ponder some things nobody may have thought of... Do the Celis' use any ground's keeping companies that groom thier yard ie: Rake thier rocks or clean up dog feces ? Do they use a cleaning service ( there was mention of " getting the house cleaned " ) ? When was the last time the cable company came for a service call and was it a contractor ? (assuming they have cable ) ... I ask these types of questions because these are the types of people nobody ever thinks twice about yet these are also the types of people who have had some sort of intimacy with the home and are capable of gaining intel on the specifics of a home and nobody none the wiser. I was a in home technician for a communications company in AZ for many years and I know for a fact there are technicians out in the field who are not just there to do thier job and use the job as a means to scope out home's. There has been numerous occassions in the contracting world where people have been terminated due to criminal activity occuring at previous clients homes. Just a thought to throw out there that maybe should be pondered !

Here's a creepy thought for you: Dennis Rader aka the BTK Killer was an animal control officer at one point.

SC was cited for dogs running loose...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

You calling Shelby "dude" just made me snort out loud. So loud it hurt. Thank you! :rocker:

Shelby would be a cool dude-ette.:rocker:

 

[LisaB]

I think the guy has an alcohol or drug problem!
I think this is why he has to stay away for now!
I think he had to agree to treatment and pass all tests before they let him back with family!

I think he was totally out of it the morning she went missing!

All JMO

"the guy" referenced above is SC. I do not know why he would not be allowed to mail his sons a letter if that was the deal. I do recall him saying in the third interview that he was still too shaky to return to work, and it is possible he is/was using some sort of drug to calm himself. I won't rule it out, but I don't think I understand why he can not have supervised visits. He's not in a rehabilitation facility, he is living with his parents. How bad could his problem be?