AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #22

[TxLady2]

I am sorry too, that case just ate at me. I felt so awful for him. Perhaps it is that they hemmed and hawed and came out and cleared him...public sentiment turned against him when he said he failed, and was pretty ugly iirc.

I wasn't upset at you but that case and how it was handled and the pain the dad was in. And if I got it slightly off and it was that he was not a suspect rather than passing the test, I still think it was a terrible thing to tell the father without telling him he was not a suspect at the same time.

I don't know if you are aware but Steve Groene and Shasta became homeless for a period of time after the case. There was a newspaper article about trying to raise a house for them, they had been sleeping on different peoples couches but no one really knew they were actually homeless. Cancer costs probably contributed to the lack of home.

ETA it was the only case I can remember off the top of my head where LE did come out and comment after a parent said they failed..or anyone involved in a case. There was a strong impression they were shocked Steve told the world.

He was not the first parent to be told he failed a LDT, and he probably won't be the last. It's done all the time. The idea behind telling a parent they failed a LDT is to see if they will crack and admit they did it. When they don't, most times LE will move on to other possibilities. Sometimes it works, though, and they find out the parent or spouse or ex-spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend turns out to be the guilty ones.
Point is, lying to a person is just one method they use to solve a case and it is not at all uncommon.

 

[BaxterDE42]

Parents of missing children need the support of neighbors and friends. If it turns out that they are innocent, one of the reasons they have little to no support will be thanks to TPD's comments that imo have been geared to pressure them (and to be honest, don't see how it does except make things even worse in an already volatile situation in the best of circumstances) IF TPD made it look as if your employee was guilty would you keep him on? Or if you had been bringing over hot suppers would you go to the door again?

In this case the Celis's have done themselves no favors though as well. Unfortunately there is not a rule book but if one could be written as to how not to handle the media...they could write it.

Doesn't make them guilty though. Just really bad judgement in how it affects their childs case in terms of public awareness.

I happen to believe they both passed a LDT or imo it would have leaked somehow..some word would have gotten out into the media from someone..a clerk writing up a report, a close source to the media etc.

What i don't like about dumping added pressure on to parents without evidence is what it can do to the situation in the home. It can make a weak person snap and may never have happened before but if there was tension in the marriage or other tension, well lets just say I don;t take CPS being called in as anything so surprising given LE's obvious opinion and given the pressure cooker situation. There are really only two possibilities and one is DV, the other something found on the computer, neither of which makes SC more likely to be guilty..well the latter might.

I think this case is cold. The doc dump really points to both scenario's (which means I believe the parents innocent until evidence proves otherwise). There were signs of an intruder and then again there are signs that could go along with a parent IF you choose to look at the worst interpretations. LE is stumped imo.

I agree with your asessment of the information as we have it. Whle I don't concern my \self fo much with making the parents a bit uncomfortable, at what point does ethics come into play? There are siblings and employers here to be concerned about when a false statement of a failed poly is puplic. Without a job, the siblings don't eat, the mortage doesn't get paid... I just think there are too many negatives to a poly and far too little emphasis put on real old fashioned police investigation. Makes me wonder how anything got solved way back before polys and tip lines!
:moo:

 

[spoiledmom]

I have heard a local rumor that SC has been trying to get money from various sources from the very beginning. This is another reason why I believe he is somewhat involved in her abduction. I do not think Isabel was murdered. Nor have I ever though she wasn't alive. I think this abduction is financially motivated in some way. JMO. I don't have proof but I believe LE might from what I've heard locally. Once again, IMO.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

If this is a hoax, the family is not going to get to keep the money. So what's the point?

 

[FrayedKnot]

While I don't believe that the Celis's owe the public anything, on the other hand aren't they taking public donations? Aren't citizens VOUNTEERING to run the center? Don't they want a citizen if they see Isabel to call a tipline? The way I see it, they can't have it both ways. IF they want their daughter home, they should be brutally honest. No matter how bad it hurts. JMO

Well, I suppose if people are volunteering both bodily and monetarily then they are doing so out of the goodness of their hearts and sincerely want to help.

That said, if the parents choose to continue taking donations and accepting volunteer help, while not appearing to make any effort themselves, they need to grow a pretty thick skin because they WILL be criticized, and I sure don't blame anybody who does.

She is THEIR daughter, so why are strangers doing more to find Isa than they are?

JMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The father of two children missing from a home where three people were killed failed parts of a lie detector test, but is not a suspect in the case, authorities said.
Steve Groene said in a television interview that he lacked an alibi and failed portions of a voluntary polygraph test administered by the FBI, but Kootenai County sheriff's Capt. Ben Wolfinger said that was not enough to make Groene a suspect
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-24-polygraph_x.htm

Also-let me add that he volunteered for the test. Although I have never personally had the chance to speak to Mr. Groene he is a friend of a classmate of mine. I will send a message through her to ask his feelings on this case.

Sorry if I upset you. It wasn't my intentions.

And this is why he failed just like others in his same situation can fail even though they are totally innocent of any crime against their loved one.

From your link..........

He attributed the polygraph results to Groene's emotional distress after his ex-wife and a son were slain and another son, Dylan, 9, and his 8-year-old daughter, Shasta, disappeared more than a week ago.

The polygraph measures a person's "physiological response to their emotional state," Wolfinger said. "Steve Groene is very distraught and upset."

 

[Dee10]

If this is a hoax, the family is not going to get to keep the money. So what's the point?

I don't think when someone commits a crime they believe they will get caught. I just don't know what I think, but I am suspicious or have the usual concerns about the "family". :banghead:

 

[SilkySifaka]

repeat

 

[eileenhawkeye]

If I was pretending that my child was missing to get money and attention, I would not be satisfied until my child was the 21st Century's Lindbergh Baby. I would be doing interviews left and right to get as much coverage for the case as possible. I would employ Kim Kardashian's PR people. If you're going to carry out an elaborate hoax, where you could likely see jail time, you better go big or go home.

 

[cluciano63]

Seeing how CPS got involved so quickly in this case...I am surprised we have not heard of such involvement in the Ayla Reynolds case, since LE has said very specifically that no "abduction" took place and they now believe Ayla to be dead. Yet two young mothers who were there with their two babies apparently still have not had any action taken against them by CPS. So that really adds to my curiosity of what on earth is going on, CPS-wise, in this case.

 

[TxLady2]

LE has a tough job, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes in these high profile cases. All :moo:[/QUOTE]

I agree. It IS a tough job. Nobody knows how frustrating and mind-numbing it can be unless they've done it.
I respect others' rights to their opinions and am the first to say that I don't always agree with their methods, but I would not want to be in their shoes. They see things that the ordinary citizen would not ever want to see.
I read somewhere that there is a higher rate of suicide among LE than in any other profession. Too tired to look for a link, so believe it or not, doesn't matter. The thing I try to remember is, I can trust them or not, and I can respect them or not... they're still going to be out there every day, putting their lives on the line for me, no matter which way I feel.

ETA: Quote got messed up, I was responding to Knox, I think. Sorry.

 

[spoiledmom]

If I was pretending that my child was missing to get money and attention, I would not be satisfied until my child was the 21st Century's Lindbergh Baby. I would be doing interviews left and right to get as much coverage for the case as possible. I would employ Kim Kardashian's PR people. If you're going to carry out an elaborate hoax, where you could likely see jail time, you better go big or go home.

Agreed. But some people aren't that bright.

 

[WhatsupAZ]

Look at how much money George Z raked in with a donation website in a short amount of time. Isa has had some major natl coverage. I bet they took in a whole lot more than we can guess.

But I cannot fathom a hoax not being discovered.

 

[Starry Night]

I am leaning way towards the direction in that the family had nothing to do with her disappearance-EXCEPT maybe bad judgement in trusting people? Also-I do believe that this is a very private family who are absolutely appalled and stunned and in disbelief that this has even happened.
They must be in a tailspin.......and I will even go generous here:

For whatever reason Mr. Celis is not to be around his other children? I am thinking another bad judgement thing and not deliberate evil.

Just my opinion.

We keep talking about it and that's a good thing. Hopefully something will snap in someone's thinking to break this case.

As an aside-it is probably not a mistake that Tucson has a news station called KGUN-after listening to the scanner so much.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Look at how much money George Z raked in with a donation website in a short amount of time. Isa has had some major natl coverage. I bet they took in a whole lot more than we can guess.

But I cannot fathom a hoax not being discovered.

How much do you think they have made?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

BBM- I'm surprised at how broad that statement is. Generally our views and opinions in this case, have been opposite. But I do enjoy reading your posts.

I don't know the cases you sited very well, so maybe my comment will be out of line in it's context. But, it seems to me that LE's job of solving crimes is getting more and more difficult. Perps are smarter and more educated about forensic evidence and it seems no body/circumstantial evidence cases are a rarity. If a perp can successfully get rid of a body, they stand a good chance of not being prosecuted.

I think it has been common practice through the years to twist the truth in an interrogation setting. I can see how that tactic works in some cases, and results in someone either confessing, or giving up details that helped solve the crime.

LE has a tough job, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes in these high profile cases. All :moo:

I have the upmost respect for most LE but not all. I would be lying if I said I did. At one time when I first joined MBs I thought everything LE did was honorable and just.

But through the years I have seen forced false confessions due to the immense pressure put upon them by LE because they had tunnel vision. Thank goodness later on the real suspect was caught in some of the high profile cases. I shudder to think what would have happened if they had not been caught. And imo, some have been convicted anyway and are innocent and sitting in prison today.

What LE did to Riley Fox's father was unforgivable imo also what they did to Michael Crowe. So while some are fine officers........all of them are not.

And yes, I know perfectly well LE can lie to anyone they please but lives are still profoundly affected by their lies.

Steve Greone came out looking so stunned and in shock when they told him he had failed his polygraph. Not only was he going through the worst nightmare of his life but LE telling him he had failed his poly made it even worse. LE did not come out right away and set the record straight on the legitimate reason why he failed.

Poor elderly Ruthie Lunsford was too timid to come forth to the media to tell she had been told she failed hers but LE did in order to intimidate this grieving grandmother who had her granddaughter ripped away by a stranger pedophile. LE was so busy honing in on the Lunsford grandparents that they failed to even realize that Jessica was right across the street when LE drove up to the Lunsford home that morning... alive for three days being raped and tortured and finally buried alive. Imo, LE has her blood on their hands.

That is why polygraphs aren't worth a tinker's dam in court. The examiner can fail a person if they want or they can just lie to them and tell them they failed to keep them twisting in the wind if they have set their sights on them as the suspect...even when they arent the suspect.

IMO

 

[Starry Night]

'.........aren't worth a tinker's dam in court'

Let's not mention tinkers lol-Gitana might get fired up again and she would be right again lol. Even though I am Irish........
And Gitana? thanks for correcting me back then

 

[WhatsupAZ]

How much do you think they have made?

If gz brought in almost 200k in 2 weeks... And the cause of a missing child seems a lot more compelling. I would guess at least as much.

 

[4Jacy]

If I was pretending that my child was missing to get money and attention, I would not be satisfied until my child was the 21st Century's Lindbergh Baby. I would be doing interviews left and right to get as much coverage for the case as possible. I would employ Kim Kardashian's PR people. If you're going to carry out an elaborate hoax, where you could likely see jail time, you better go big or go home.

BBM


Thank you. I love it: go big or go home!!!!!

 

[SilkySifaka]

I have the upmost respect for most LE but not all. I would be lying if I said I did. At one time when I first joined MBs I thought everything LE did was honorable and just.

But through the years I have seen forced false confessions due to the immense pressure put upon them by LE because they had tunnel vision. Thank goodness later on the real suspect was caught in some of the high profile cases. I shudder to think what would have happened if they had not been caught. And imo, some have been convicted anyway and are innocent and sitting in prison today.

What LE did to Riley Fox's father was unforgivable imo also what they did to Michael Crowe. So while some are fine officers........all of them are not.

And yes, I know perfectly well LE can lie to anyone they please but lives are still profoundly affected by their lies.

Steve Greone came out looking so stunned and in shock when they told him he had failed his polygraph. Not only was he going through the worst nightmare of his life but LE telling him he had failed his poly made it even worse. LE did not come out right away and set the record straight on the legitimate reason why he failed.

Poor elderly Ruthie Lunsford was too timid to come forth to the media to tell she had been told she failed hers but LE did in order to intimidate this grieving grandmother who had her granddaughter ripped away by a stranger pedophile. LE was so busy honing in on the Lunsford grandparents that they failed to even realize that Jessica was right across the street when LE drove up to the Lunsford home that morning... alive for three days being raped and tortured and finally buried alive. Imo, LE has her blood on their hands.

That is why polygraphs aren't worth a tinker's dam in court. The examiner can fail a person if they want or they can just lie to them and tell them they failed to keep them twisting in the wind if they have set their sights on them as the suspect...even when they arent the suspect.

IMO

Bravo!! The Riley Fox case was a terrible miscarriage of justice

ETA ..I call it that bc LE forced a false confession from a distraught and devastated father and then jailed him, when he should have been able to mourn his child