AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #22

[Lark2]

Do you really believe a stranger would break into a home kidnap/subdue/restrain a child and then TAKE TIME TO WIPE DOWN ALL THE SURFACES?

No, a stranger wouldn't do that. BUt inexperienced parents who were trying to stage a scene to look like an abduction might make that mistake.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

There are reporters on this thread (GUT, among others) and I used to work in the field, and I can assure you that "tips" that allege criminal and especially sexually criminal behaviour do not get printed or broadcast by the media, they get referred to LE. The law regarding libel/slander/defamation is clear cut in cases like this that involve people who are not public figures and who have not even been "named" as suspects.

What people say on blogs or forums or social media is another matter.

I know very well GFs is a reporter.

People are being sued for what they have said on internet forums/chats and some are winning their cases.

But I have followed enough cases that I do know people will spill the beans if they really know anything and the reporters will report it no matter how salacious it is.

IMO

 

[Prof]

As far as I have witnessed, LE never said anything was "cleaned up."

LE never said anything was staged.

LE Lt. Pacheco answered a reporter's question whether or not the perp did such a good job as to stump LE. He qualified the "good" with an "adequate". His answer was on the spot and defensive IMO.

IMO I cannot make the large assumption that a negative result in something as complex of a science as latent fingerprint testing to mean that a crime scene was staged. Especially when disregarding what was found, such as apparent blood, two fingerprints,, and residue left on outside of window screen.
I could not begin to assume what the negative result would mean.

 

[laniefi]

EXACTLY!!!! A stranger WOULD NOT do that! But someone in the house who may not be thinking clearly because something horrible just happened may think they need to make it look like someone else did this.

I am still on the fence with dad, so don't get me wrong, but THIS, **THIS** is the best way to FRAME a STRANGER, by supposedly wiping down the families fingerprints from furniture in Isa's room?

 

[laniefi]

No, a stranger wouldn't do that. BUt inexperienced parents who were trying to stage a scene to look like an abduction might make that mistake.

Really? I dunno, I am not some criminal masermind **laughs @ self, snorts** but I could probably think of something OTHER than this to stage an abduction scene.

Let me ask you this - in your opinion - what else was STAGED?

I am seriously asking. I have NOT read the doc dump all the way through yet.

 

[laniefi]

I know very well GFs is a reporter.

People are being sued for what they have said on internet forums/chats and some are winning their cases.

But I have followed enough cases that I do know people will spill the beans if they really know anything and the reporters will report it no matter how salacious it is.

IMO

Seems as if everyone is looking for their 15 minutes, sometimes at the disgust/embarrassment of their entire families and or friends.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

You are listing cases where the parents were not involved in their child's disappearance.

Obviously, I think the scene was staged by the parents because the parents ARE responsible for Isabel's disappearance.

Apparently, LE has suspcions about them too because they're still not cleared as suspsects and the dad cannot have any contact with his kids.

I dread even writing the last part for fear of getting the "lots of parents were not cleared" refrain. Can we just stay focused on this case????

How can they rule them out? The parents were never ruled out either in some of the other cases I have mentioned before the real perp was finally caught. So what is the difference in this one?

Yes, I am listing cases where the parents werent involved but the vast majority of posters at the time on ever MB on the internet were just as sure they WERE involved as those who are so sure Sergio is involved before the real was caught.

If it had never happened with these same eerie circumstances then that would be another matter altogther but it has, and imo, it cant be dismissed casually especially when there hasnt even been in evidence shown that the either parent is involved.

I have nothing to base an opinion on that the scene was staged. What did they do run down the street and get someone's fingerprint/scent and put it on the window sill and then somehow the dog alerts to that unfamilar scent and tracks it all the way over on Cooper Street causing LE to have enough probable cause to get a SW? I dont think the Celis' are dumb by any means but I just dont see either one of them being that smart.

 

[white rabbit]

As far as I have witnessed, LE never said anything was "cleaned up."

LE never said anything was staged.

LE Lt. Pacheco answered a reporter's question whether or not the perp did such a good job as to stump LE. He qualified the "good" with an "adequate". His answer was on the spot and defensive IMO.

IMO I cannot make the large assumption that a negative result in something as complex of a science as latent fingerprint testing to mean that a crime scene was staged. Especially when disregarding what was found, such as apparent blood, two fingerprints,, and residue left on outside of window screen.
I could not begin to assume what the negative result would mean.

thanks for the attatchment...i won't engage in a staging debate but...did anyone notice that there was not one, but two blood items? marked DJN3 and DJN4???

 

[No Stone Unturned]

I have a question about these cases. Were the family's fingerprints found, or was there just an absence of a strangers fingerprints. Huge difference if the family's finger prints were found. Because that is the crux of the issues right there. A stranger breaking into the house would take precautions such a gloves to prevent their fingerprints from getting anywhere in the first place...not take extra time to wipe down furniture.

Aliayah Lunsford's home wasn't initially declared a crime scene. Many people were allowed in and out for days without the house being properly searched and secured.

ETA: Sorry, I just realized that you were talking about Jessica Lunsford.

 

[Lark2]

Let me ask you this - in your opinion - what else was STAGED?

I am seriously asking. I have NOT read the doc dump all the way through yet.

I think the window was staged as an entry/exit point and I think LE has said as much.

I think the 911 call was "staged" to look like Sergio just woke up and realized his daughter was "abducted" (his words).

I think the entire abduction claim is a fake. Everything surrounding it and everything to do with it. In other words, I don't think this child was "taken" by an "abductor." She was removed from the house, dead or alive, by one or more family members, who in turn made up the abduction scenario to cover their hide(s).

 

[Prof]

thanks for the attatchment...i won't engage in a staging debate but...did anyone notice that there was not one, but two blood items? marked DJN3 and DJN4???

The report mentions
DJN1L and DJN2L both are latent fingerprints on sill

The report also mentions
DJN1 through DJN6

DNJ1 -- where fingerprint dust collected on part of the outside screen but no actual print visible -- sent in for DNA tests

DNJ2 -- where dust collected on the actual window sent in for DNA test

DNJ3 -- apparent blood in Isa's room

DNJ4 -- apparent blood in Isa's room

DNJ5 --included at bottom -- ?

DNJ6 -- -included at bottom ---?

DNJ 5 and 6? one or both could be the scent sample? IDK

Here are the two reports that mention the DNJ3 and DNJ4

One is the report from the photographer of the apparent blood on the floor
One is the report of the latent fingerprints/evidence from Isa's room

 

[Lava]

I am still on the fence with dad, so don't get me wrong, but THIS, **THIS** is the best way to FRAME a STRANGER, by supposedly wiping down the families fingerprints from furniture in Isa's room?

Let me attempt to paint a picture here, although I am not too great with words. One family member has just killed a child. In a panic, they know they need to cover their tracks, not only from LE but from the rest of the family that is still in that very house. Not only do they have to stage an abduction, but they need to get rid of the body and not wake anyone up and get in bed before everyone wakes up. They don't have a lot of time to stage the abduction, but they can remove a window screen and in their panic, either as a way of mistakenly thinking they need to hide proof that they were in the room - or just another part of the staging, they wipe the furniture down. Really, what else could they have done to suggest a discrete kidnapping by a stranger? They don't have evidence to plant, they have to work with what is available to them.


IMO - if it was someone in the house, and Isa ended up dead, they didn't actually mean to kill her. So they were panicked, not thinking clearly, did what came to them quickly.

 

[laniefi]

Let me attempt to paint a picture here, although I am not too great with words. One family member has just killed a child. In a panic, they know they need to cover their tracks, not only from LE but from the rest of the family that is still in that very house. Not only do they have to stage an abduction, but they need to get rid of the body and not wake anyone up and get in bed before everyone wakes up. They don't have a lot of time to stage the abduction, but they can remove a window screen and in their panic, either as a way of mistakenly thinking they need to hide proof that they were in the room - or just another part of the staging, they wipe the furniture down. Really, what else could they have done to suggest a discrete kidnapping by a stranger? They don't have evidence to plant, they have to work with what is available to them.


IMO - if it was someone in the house, and Isa ended up dead, they didn't actually mean to kill her. So they were panicked, not thinking clearly, did what came to them quickly.

Not bad with words - I understood!

So, if the INTENT was not kill her we can't really say accident (ala Dr. G, CA, blah, blah) so you think she passed during the course of a sexual assault? or what other options are we left with?

 

[white rabbit]

I think the window was staged as an entry/exit point and I think LE has said as much.

I think the 911 call was "staged" to look like Sergio just woke up and realized his daughter was "abducted" (his words).

I think the entire abduction claim is a fake. Everything surrounding it and everything to do with it. In other words, I don't think this child was "taken" by an "abductor." She was removed from the house, dead or alive, by one or more family members, who in turn made up the abduction scenario to cover their hide(s).

i agree with you...but for argument's sake, say it isn't fake. what abductor leaves not one but two items of blood evidence in the room...stashes something (shower curtain, hat, whatever) in the acura klunker, then sits in the driver's seat of the toyota? yet careful enough to leave no prints??? it makes no sense.

no, they didn't confirm there was blood in the klunker...but they certainly found something they didn't like:

KARLINSKY: Yes. This is very curious. I was there right after the disappearance for more than a week, and we watched police just tearing apart that red car, just going through it methodically day after day. Now we know from these documents they did, in fact, find what they describe as a white hat and also a shower curtain inside with a brown or reddish-brown substance on it.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1205/25/ng.01.html

and there was definitely blood in the other car:

"A forensics team searching for traces of blood, had a positive hit on the driver's seat of a Toyota Corolla parked in the driveway of the Celis home"

http://www.kpho.com/story/18623691/tucson-pd-releases-new-details-on-search-for-isabel

no perp is going to stick around, in his own or his victim's blood, and play leapfrog in the family cars.

and if none of the above is related in any way to isa's disappearance, i do take issue with random blood stains in a little girls' bedroom and the father's car. IMO, JMO, et cetera...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Not bad with words - I understood!

So, if the INTENT was not kill her we can't really say accident (ala Dr. G, CA, blah, blah) so you think she passed during the course of a sexual assault? or what other options are we left with?

I just read the attachments Prof put up and they tested for semen in Isa's bed and it was negative.

IMO

 

[Lava]

Not bad with words - I understood!

So, if the INTENT was not kill her we can't really say accident (ala Dr. G, CA, blah, blah) so you think she passed during the course of a sexual assault? or what other options are we left with?

As far as I know we aren't allowed to talk about sexual assault in regards to the family. But I believe it was along those lines, or physical abuse. Definitely not an accidental drowning coverup

 

[oceanblueeyes]

i agree with you...but for argument's sake, say it isn't fake. what abductor leaves not one but two items of blood evidence in the room...stashes something (shower curtain, hat, whatever) in the acura klunker, then sits in the driver's seat of the toyota? yet careful enough to leave no prints??? it makes no sense.

no, they didn't confirm there was blood in the klunker...but they certainly found something they didn't like:

KARLINSKY: Yes. This is very curious. I was there right after the disappearance for more than a week, and we watched police just tearing apart that red car, just going through it methodically day after day. Now we know from these documents they did, in fact, find what they describe as a white hat and also a shower curtain inside with a brown or reddish-brown substance on it.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1205/25/ng.01.html

and there was definitely blood in the other car:

"A forensics team searching for traces of blood, had a positive hit on the driver's seat of a Toyota Corolla parked in the driveway of the Celis home"

http://www.kpho.com/story/18623691/tucson-pd-releases-new-details-on-search-for-isabel

no perp is going to stick around, in his own or his victim's blood, and play leapfrog in the family cars.

and if none of the above is related in any way to isa's disappearance, i do take issue with random blood stains in a little girls' bedroom and the father's car. IMO, JMO, et cetera...

I think what was found in the cars is a red herring. If it had any evidence at all connected to Isa's kidnapping LE would have impounded the vehicles and they didnt.

IMO

 

[Prof]

"Q. Does the lack of latent prints on evidence mean that the object was not touched or that the prints were wiped off?
A. Failure to recover latent prints does not mean that the prints were wiped off or that the object was not touched. The absence of latent prints can be caused by various factors, each depending on conditions existing before, during, and after the finger touched the object."
http://www.scafo.org/Online_Information/FAQ.html

 

[Prof]

I think what was found in the cars is a red herring. If it had any evidence at all connected to Isa's kidnapping LE would have impounded the vehicles and they didnt.

IMO

I have to agree. Did they not impound the RR truck with the pocket knife and towel? I think it was a short stay, but they did take it away in the reports. I don't see any evidence of the parents cars being impounded.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have to agree. Did they not impound the RR truck with the pocket knife and towel? I think it was a short stay, but they did take it away in the reports. I don't see any evidence of the parents cars being impounded.

Yes they did impound his truck.

On one hand some have the Celis' being Ensteins and staging a masterful crime scene but yet they throw the evidence away in the inoperable car in the front of the house for LE to find? :waitasec:

We saw how quickly LE impounded Torres' red Jetta in Sierra's case.