AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #23

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If Sergio was threatening suicide, and CPS found out, wouldn't he have been sent to a hospital for treatment? And wouldn't he be allowed supervised visits or at the least, phone calls?

I think he was pressuring the boys to change their stories and version of events, jmo.
 
You beat me to it Azcrabcakes! :)

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
 
The reason he agreed to sign a "voluntary" no contact order, is that if he had refused, CPS would go to court with their concerns, to gain a "non-voluntary" order.

If CPS went to court, then they present the facts of the case, and why they believe SC is a danger to his children. SC wants to avoid this public airing of his dirty laundry - his agreement has zero to do with the well being of his boys and everything to do with the well being of himself.

BOTH LE AND CPS BELIEVE HE IS A DANGER TO HIS REMAINING CHILDREN. This is NOT a case of CPS over-reacting. They were alerted to this by LE (a credible source).

Please remember, this is NO CONTACT which means just that...no phone calls, no letters, no supervised visits, nothing.

Usually a parent would be allowed supervised visits, and there has to be a compelling reason why this is not the case. WHY would a parent be removed from an already traumatised family? It is certainly not done lightly.

CPS and LE are expert at dealing with fractured families. All attempts are made at every level to keep families together UNLESS there is an excellent reason that this cannot happen.

It doesn't matter which way you argue it - a no-contact order, voluntary or not, is a massive indicator that something in that family is seriously wrong...and not just that one of them is missing.

BTW, has anyone thought that Isa slept with her older brother because she was AFRAID to sleep on her own?

JMO>

BBM ... all attempts are being made to keep this family together, thus the voluntary and not denying custody, and having the children put in foster homes.

... please link me to the fact that we know she slet with her older brother
 
May I just ask that you link what is on record and what is your opinion. Gets tough trying to see which is which. Not wanting to be a bully or anything but I think also the rules request we link everything.

Thanks :seeya:

No problem it's his May 14th presser, I posted it this morning... http://www.kvoa.com/news/tpd-celis-...s-voluntarily-at-cps-request/#!prettyPhoto/0/

I know, usually when people want something proved they say, "Do you have a link for that or thanks in advanced." LOL
 
Thanks, Jules and Crabcakes! :). I was too tired and lazy to go a-hunting!
 
Exactly! Everyone has a right to their own opinion. It seriously makes my heart ache to see posters arguing over things unknown to any of us.

We need to go back to discussing floor plans or the dogs. :truce:

Or pajamas :seeya:
 
I am sticking with my gut feelings,that there will be an arrest soon,and it will be SC,in MHO.

Just bouncing off your post FORDANIEL - I have heard for 6 weks at least now that an arrest will be made soon. I am wondering how long soon is nowadays? lol (Certainly not aimed at your post - many posters have said the same thing for a long time)
 
Minden,Nevada,is located in Douglas County,in Nevada.All this time I was thinking it was Douglas,Az!!!

It is Douglas, AZ. She just picked the wrong Douglas from the FB drop down. She graduated Douglas High School in Douglas, AZ. Per yearbooks and other documentation.
 
Not if it was at the request of the boys themselves.

They may have asked for time apart from their father, without divulging any illegal activity on his behalf.


The boys can't ask, Good Lord, the kids in Australia can't ask either lol

They didn't ask, it has been released by police that their investigations by detectives caused them to to contact CPS.

The police statement said new information regarding the welfare of the older Celis children led detectives to contact officials with Child Protective Services and call in Isabel's family for a meeting Friday. The statement did not specify what prompted the detectives and child welfare workers to take action.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/isabel-cel...barred-contact/story?id=16334922#.T-FG2rV8CSo
 
Exactly! Everyone has a right to their own opinion. It seriously makes my heart ache to see posters arguing over things unknown to any of us.

We need to go back to discussing floor plans or the dogs. :truce:

:floorlaugh: QUIT IT :floorlaugh:
 
We don't know if the boys or other family members said anything of a sensitive nature that led to CPS involvement or not. We do know CPS consulted detectives and other family members, the chief didn't say detectives and the parents. When you are consulting, you're looking for information to determine your decision, so whatever caused LE to go to CPS needed to be consulted with other family members. Was that the boys or extended family, we don't know and the chief won't say.
 
It is Douglas, AZ. She just picked the wrong Douglas from the FB drop down. She graduated Douglas High School in Douglas, AZ. Per yearbooks and other documentation.

Thanks,I thought I was losing it.Errors like that drive me bonkers!:banghead:
 
I do stand corrected on this point.

What I should have said was -

SC doesn't want to go to court and have anything ON RECORD which may later be used against him in trial.

Your second point - you're kidding right?

Your third point - is pretty irrelevant because I don't put any weight on the fact or rumour that Isa did/didn't sleep with her older brothers. I personally have never found it unusual either way - my kids were always close like that and it was in no way "creepy" or "wierd". It doesn't matter to me if it's true or gossip.
No, not kidding..the comment is in direct reply to the statement regarding an opinion of CPS being APPROPRIATE IN THIS CASE...my point is quite simply that there is a very large unknown factor as to what led to the voluntary agreement.. that factor is unknown to us all.. WE HAVE NO INFORMATION OF WHICH TO DECIPHER WHETHER IT IS APPROPRIATE OR NOT.. that very simply was the point of reply..not kidding just stating what IMO is the obvious..

And as for the last detail I wholeheartedly agree that its irrelevant..and only commented due to the fact this irrelevant issue was stated and asked, was the reason that she slept nightly with the brothers due to her being afraid of something...thus I simply stated that the basis of the question(Isa sleeping with brothers) was never established as anything but rumor.. (and I certainly made no remark about the rumor being creepy/weird due to the fact that if it were found to be true I personally wouldn't have any issue whatsoever with it..but didn't comment either way) ..

I understand fully that there are very differing opinions with this case and that all are welcome(as long as they are within TOS) ..unknown factors are difficult to form opinions about and that's why I stated such.. but hey, that's jmo as well;)..

As always to each their own:)
 
If Sergio was threatening suicide, and CPS found out, wouldn't he have been sent to a hospital for treatment? And wouldn't he be allowed supervised visits or at the least, phone calls?

SBM

I am not familiar with how stuff is done in Arizona; the following is all based on how it is done in my state. I became familiar with the ins and outs of involuntary and voluntary psychiatric admitting through my job which involved suicide crisis intervention.

Furthermore, none of the following applies to SC because I don't know him, have never met him, have absolutely no insider knowledge about him.

Verbalising suicidal ideation is not enough to get someone committed to a psychiatric facility in my state, voluntarily or involuntarily.

The statement or statements have to be evaluated in context and evaluated as to whether that person is an immediate threat to themself or someone else.

So, for instance, the parent of a missing child says "if my child isn't found, I'll kill myself" is voicing suicidal thoughts. However, the time frame almost certainly means they are not an immediate threat. No involuntary hospitalisation and probably not a voluntary one, either.

If the parent says something like "I don't know how much longer I can take this, I'll kill myself if they don't find my child" that is a step up in the immediacy (because of the uncertainty of "how much longer" would mean). No involuntary hospitalisation but possibly a voluntary one. Depending on the person's history, etc, I think a lot of psychiatrists would be comfortable treating on an outpatient basis (no voluntary hospitalisation).

If the parent says something like "if my child isn't found by next Saturday, I'll eat my shotgun" then that is considered highly dangerous; there's a definite time stated and a method (we'll assume the person has a shotgun). That would get someone involuntarily hospitalised for a 72 hour psych eval.

There are lots and lots of people who have voiced suicidal ideation and are treated without hospitalisation. Part of it is that people deserve to be treated in the least restrictive environment available and part of it is that there is a severe shortage of beds in psychiatric facilities.

Now to stir children into the mix: if a parent is suicidal and voicing that in front of their children, the children need to be protected from that.

If the parent is experiencing fast mood swings, then even limited or supervised contact with the children may not be in the child's best interests. If the parent is fine one minute, then sobbing and talking about suicide the next minute, there's just too much chance the child will be further exposed to potential emotional damage.

Again, none of this directly applies to SC because I have no idea what is happening behind the scenes and because all this applies to my own state and not to Arizona.

Further, there's the question of whether CPS is over-reacting or not. Without more information, who knows?
 
I think that we should proceed from the viewpoint that the actions of CPS were entirely appropriate. Why would anyone start with the viewpoint that the actions of CPS were inappropriate in this case? You cannot compare this case to some case you know of where CPS was supposedly in the wrong. I will not question LE or CPS in the case of the no contact order, as I have no reason to believe their actions were at all inappropriate.
 
Or pajamas :seeya:

PJ talk not exhausted yet, kids. :woohoo:(No, seriously - - I've noted Isabel's signature earrings, and I wonder if those were in her room or gone, and I've wondered if any sneakers are missing, since I am "assuming" she wore sneaks to the ballgame.)

I'm sorry, but we STILL don't know what she wore to the ballgame! And how that differs from what she wore to bed (if she went to bed at all.)

okay, okay, okay . . .:blushing:
 
Also, I'd like to add, better for CPS to OVERREACT than not REACT AT ALL. Too many kids in my city ending up DEAD, like little Nixzmary (sp).
 
I don't know why it would be hard to believe Isa slept in the boy's room. Wouldn't her room have been the room JM lived in for almost a year? If it is, then she was probably used to sleeping in there with them. Plus her parents room is farther away, maybe she felt lonely all by herself being so little when the boys were together and then her parents. It's really not hard to conceive, that's why alot of kids like to sleep with the parents, but some parents won't allow that, so they sleep with siblings.

Good point. Do we "know" that JM stayed in Isabel's room for a year (let's say, rather than staying on the couch like a gentleman).

If so, do we have a timeline for who was contacted first by SC and when? That is, from my recollection, didn't JM show up at the house pretty early . .that morning . . . was it BEFORE 911 had been called? Was he called BEFORE Becky was called?

I'm just wondering if the "wipe down" in Isabel's room occurred then . . .
 
* rumor *...two different blogs saying SC's been seen in public with his family. it was as of the 17th. one poster saw he and the boys with her own eyes.

no links, unfortunately. are any local(s) here? i cannot find one article confirming this. you'd think the media would be jumping on it if true...

TIA for anyone who can help out and get some proof...i'm tryin'...lol...
 
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