AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #23

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MsFacetious said:
I don't think we can determine if a rumor is true based on whether the media covers it or not.
Once a case isn't getting daily media attention it may take a lot to get it back into the news. The media isn't all over it anymore.

Try getting the media to cover the fact that Mona Nelson now has $250,000 BOND for killing a 12 year old boy with a welding torch. Jonathan's case was in the news, media all over it, details are out there... but nobody seems to CARE that she has BOND now. :what:

Mona Nelson charged w/ Murder of Jonathan Foster, 12, Houston, 24 Dec 2010 #12 - Page 10 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I certainly think that would be newsworthy especially if she makes bond... :what: but apparently the Texas media does not?

So if doesn't surprise me at all... that Arizona media wouldn't cover it if Sergio was actually allowed to see his kids again.
In other cases it hasn't been big news either... often finding out through blogs. Verified either by the parent or later by the media. :twocents:
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WHAT??? They gave that woman bond after torturing and killing that poor child? My God in Heaven...
 
Jules71 said:
We do not know if JM stayed in Isa's room. It was assumed that if she did sleep in her brother's room, it could have been because JM was living in her room. Who knows though, he could have stayed in the den.

I have the feeling that JM was already there early that morning when this went down. He is not on the list of people Becky and Sergio called that morning according to the doc dump. And didn't the neighbor say he knocked on her door? Also I remember one part of the docs where the officer is stating another person (possible a brother of Becky's) came to the house but he did not get his name and they left and went to look for Isa. It is weird to me all the people coming and going and not getting someones name.
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I really think that has become confusing. The neighbor who talked with the media said that the police told her that the man who came to her door early that morning was Isa's uncle. JM is not an uncle. I believe the person who came to the door was Becky's brother.

In fact iirc we didnt even see JM until later in the evening when he was out searching for Isa and so were TPD. It was then that the media stopped him and he spoke with them.

I think the Celis' did call someone and then that person in turn called JM and he came from wherever at that time.

The Celis family said no one was there with them that night. Just the four immediate family members.

IMO
 
MsFacetious said:
I don't think we can determine if a rumor is true based on whether the media covers it or not.
Once a case isn't getting daily media attention it may take a lot to get it back into the news. The media isn't all over it anymore.

Try getting the media to cover the fact that Mona Nelson now has $250,000 BOND for killing a 12 year old boy with a welding torch. Jonathan's case was in the news, media all over it, details are out there... but nobody seems to CARE that she has BOND now. :what:

Mona Nelson charged w/ Murder of Jonathan Foster, 12, Houston, 24 Dec 2010 #12 - Page 10 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I certainly think that would be newsworthy especially if she makes bond... :what: but apparently the Texas media does not?

So if doesn't surprise me at all... that Arizona media wouldn't cover it if Sergio was actually allowed to see his kids again.
In other cases it hasn't been big news either... often finding out through blogs. Verified either by the parent or later by the media. :twocents:
Click to expand...

OMG! I didnt know this. Please tell me she couldnt get anyone to go her bond.

That woman deserves to never see the light of day again.

That reminds me of when Shasta and Dylan Greone were missing for 7 weeks. The national media and local news carried it night and day for about 2 weeks then the news of the children went poof when the Natalee Holloway case came to light two weeks after they were kidnapped. Not another word about them and all that time they were alive being tortured by JED. Dylan was murdered about a week before JED brought Shasta back to her hometown.

Even when Shasta was found 7 weeks after being kidnapped the national media had a one-two minute sound bite on it and continued to cover the Holloway case.

IMO
 
Mjskit said:
mmmmmm IFCPS was called in December because JM was staying there and CPS said he had to go but he still stayed in Isabels room THEN that could be why her room was wiped clean. So CPS would not know they did not comply? IMO
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I have not seen any evidence or reports that state the room was "wiped clean."
 
It is confusing, but I think it could have also been RR, since him and his gf were there and she was cleaning, in a house that was a crimescene. It was RR whose phone LE checked and vehicle searched, but JM was also called Uncle, probably because the kids were young. He has an apt not too far from them. But if he wasn't there early on and is close with the family, I wonder why he wasn't on the call list to family telling them to come. He was there later, because of the video. It was said noone was there that night, but there's approx 5-6 hours, according to SC's timeframe that he wasn't in his own bed where he placed himself back at 5am.
 
MBK said:
Good point. Do we "know" that JM stayed in Isabel's room for a year (let's say, rather than staying on the couch like a gentleman).

If so, do we have a timeline for who was contacted first by SC and when? That is, from my recollection, didn't JM show up at the house pretty early . .that morning . . . was it BEFORE 911 had been called? Was he called BEFORE Becky was called?

I'm just wondering if the "wipe down" in Isabel's room occurred then . . .
Click to expand...

These things sure do grow legs.

We don't "know" that JM lived there at all. We have one neighbor statement that RC's brother lived there. JM is not RC's brother He is RC's cousin. RC's father is brother to JM's mother.

The MSM statement that was made about someone else living with the Celis family came from an interview that DP the neighbor did with JVM.
We have this neighbor stating that a brother stayed there for a while (maybe six months) and that was a year or so ago....

He did not say that this brother stayed there a year. He did not say that anyone had lived there more recently than a year or so ago.

Here is a copy of the transcript.

JVM: "DP, you are Isabel`s neighbor. Your boys played with Isabel`s brothers. This report that there was some guy staying reportedly, allegedly, with the Celis family, who owed them a lot of money. Have you ever heard anything about this claim before just now -- D"

DP: "No, Jane. We knew that I believe Becky`s brother was staying with the family for a while, a year or so ago, and the boys had alluded that it was their uncle or cousin. And he was... "

VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Well -- go ahead."

DP: "Yes, he was staying with them, but I think it was, like, maybe six or eight months. I`m not sure how long he stayed with them, but, yes, he was living there. "
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1205/25/ijvm.01.html

We do not know that it was JM who lived there. It could have been one of RC's brothers.

We have zero evidence that JM was in the neighborhood in the morning Isa went missing at all. He was first caught on camera much later in the afternoon. Isa's real uncles were there in the morning as noted by name on the police reports.

People just assumed that the AS neighbor was talking about JM, because in the first week, he was the only "uncle" mentioned.

There is no evidence that anything was "wiped clean."
 
Dr. Know? said:
In this video, Luis R, Becky's brother said it wasn't him who knocked on the neighbors door @ the 2 minute mark.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/05/03/isabel-celis-uncle-speaks-out
Click to expand...

Right, I remember the younger brother stating this on NG.
The thing is... all we have is AS stating that a police officer told her later that it was probably the uncle knocking at her door that morning...
She also said the police officer was there before the 911 call, so I am not sure what to believe. She admitted that did not know who it was who knocked on her door.
 
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175138&page=24 Post #599 Once again if you look at this photo of Isa's window, you see the dresser was almost 1/4 of the length in front of her window inside. There were no fingerprints on top of that dresser. Now the cheap frame would be difficult to get a good grip with the metal frame at the bottom that the window slid down into, to pull yourself up. So the suspect would probably use the dresser as leverage to pull himself inside, unless he was a ninja and jumped from the ground to inside the room, I don't think so.

There doesn't look like any damage to the cheap window frame, which they would have to get that window open. It was open all the way the next morning, so maybe they had to push it open from the glass itself, if they didn't pry the closed window at the bottom. I see no pushing down of that bottom metal frame. I don't know if there were prints on the glass either. So if that window was used, and SC said LE didn't think so and neither did he, the suspect did a good cover up job. If the window was wide open and screen pushed in and laying on the ground, and that wasn't the entrance, then someone staged the window scene. Why would a suspect do that, I don't know, very odd.
 
This was the neigbor AS's statement about the uncle knocking on her door

"GRACE: We are taking your calls. And joining me right now, a special guest, a guest who is emerging as a crucial witness in this search for Isabel Celis, Alicia Stardevant, the next-door neighbor whose bedroom window only feet from Isabel`s.

Alicia, again, thank you for being with us. After you heard the male voices that morning, 6:30 AM, I assume you tried to go back to sleep. What was the next thing you heard?

STARDEVANT: The next thing I heard was a knock on my front door from her uncle and an officer saying that Isabel was missing.

GRACE: What time was that?

STARDEVANT: It`d be 8:00.

GRACE: So at 8:00 AM. Are you sure of that time?

STARDEVANT: It might have been 8:05. It was definitely 8:00-ish.

GRACE: OK...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... because I know that they called police around 8:00 AM. Did you happen to hear, or can you hear Ms. Celis when she leaves in the morning for her job as a nurse?

STARDEVANT: I can`t, no. I don`t know exactly when she leaves for work in the morning.

GRACE: So between your dog barking and their dogs barking, when was it you went back along that alleyway and looked at Isabel`s window?

STARDEVANT: Yes. Oh, sorry...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: When? What time?

STARDEVANT: It was right -- it was right after they told me. I put on some clothes, and I looked over the wall. So it was probably, like, 8:15 maybe.

GRACE: When the uncle came to talk to you, what did he ask?

STARDEVANT: He asked if I had seen a little girl that was missing. He didn`t right away say that it was his niece. And then later, when I came out, the officer told me it was his niece."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/26/ng.01.html
 
SC did not actually say that LE did not think the window was a point of entry. He stated that he was unsure about the window in the interview he did with the local reporters, but he did not say that LE did not think the window was used.

This article includes the quote from SC from that interview

Snipped...

A lot of questions have centered around whether one of the windows was the way in or out of the house for whoever took Isabel Celis. Isabel's father Sergio suggested he's beginning to question that theory.


"I will say initially, but then after more investigating, and I don't want to go too far about that, I am just not sure anymore. And I think that's as far as I can speak about that."


Police did say they did see something about one of the windows that led them to take an especially close look.

At the Friday afternoon briefing, Tucson Police Sergeant Maria Hawke said, "It was some suspicious circumstances associated with the window to the house but we can't confirm if that's a point of entry or exit and so as you can imagine there's a variety of other ways to get in and out of the house so we're examining all possibilities."


http://www.kgun9.com/news/local/150254045.html
 
Prof, that's what was posted before that LE didn't think the window was the entrance and he didn't either. I'll go back to listen to the raw interview they did on the couch and check it out.
 
Raw Video Part 2: Parents of Isabel Celis speak to the local media - YouTube @8:56 mm

Reporter asked, "Do you believe she was taken out of the window?". SC said, "I will say initially, but then after, you know, more investigating and I don't wanna go to far about that. I'm just not sure anymore. That's as far as I think I should speak of it."

So, it was LE who were doing the investigating, what else could have prompted SC to not be sure anymore? I think it stands to reason upon LE investigating, the window scene is questionable, at best.
 
LE has never made the statement that they did not think that the window was an entry or exit point. THey have always said they will not comment either way. The link I provided showed the clip of the interview where SC made his window non-statement.
 
Isabel's window---a key clue or a false trail? - YouTube @1:41 mm, an officer is speaking about the window. She doesn't sound too confident about the window either, saying there were some suspicious things about the window, but there are other ways. So once again, if the window was wide open and screen pushed in and on the ground to make it look like it was the entrance into her room, then it was staged. IMO It doesn't make any sense why a stranger would do that.

I'm not saying it has to be a parent, but possibly extended family or someone they know. I don't find a purpose in a staged stranger abduction, if it is. Maybe someone got access to a key and made a copy who knows.
 
winterrose said:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175138&page=24 Post #599 Once again if you look at this photo of Isa's window, you see the dresser was almost 1/4 of the length in front of her window inside. There were no fingerprints on top of that dresser. Now the cheap frame would be difficult to get a good grip with the metal frame at the bottom that the window slid down into, to pull yourself up. So the suspect would probably use the dresser as leverage to pull himself inside, unless he was a ninja and jumped from the ground to inside the room, I don't think so.

There doesn't look like any damage to the cheap window frame, which they would have to get that window open. It was open all the way the next morning, so maybe they had to push it open from the glass itself, if they didn't pry the closed window at the bottom. I see no pushing down of that bottom metal frame. I don't know if there were prints on the glass either. So if that window was used, and SC said LE didn't think so and neither did he, the suspect did a good cover up job. If the window was wide open and screen pushed in and laying on the ground, and that wasn't the entrance, then someone staged the window scene. Why would a suspect do that, I don't know, very odd.
Click to expand...

BBM: First of all that phrase was hilarious!:floorlaugh:
You make some really good points about the window frame and indeed if that is the dresser then it IS odd that fingerprints where not able to be taken off the top. Initially I had not been too concerned about the dresser as most prints would most likely be smeared from daily use IMO. Are we sure that is the dresser? It looks like a possible headboard? :waitasec:IDK...
But,:goodpost:
 
Prof said:
These things sure do grow legs.

We don't "know" that JM lived there at all. We have one neighbor statement that RC's brother lived there. JM is not RC's brother He is RC's cousin. RC's father is brother to JM's mother.

The MSM statement that was made about someone else living with the Celis family came from an interview that DP the neighbor did with JVM.
We have this neighbor stating that a brother stayed there for a while (maybe six months) and that was a year or so ago....

He did not say that this brother stayed there a year. He did not say that anyone had lived there more recently than a year or so ago.

Here is a copy of the transcript.

JVM: "DP, you are Isabel`s neighbor. Your boys played with Isabel`s brothers. This report that there was some guy staying reportedly, allegedly, with the Celis family, who owed them a lot of money. Have you ever heard anything about this claim before just now -- D"

DP: "No, Jane. We knew that I believe Becky`s brother was staying with the family for a while, a year or so ago, and the boys had alluded that it was their uncle or cousin. And he was... "

VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Well -- go ahead."

DP: "Yes, he was staying with them, but I think it was, like, maybe six or eight months. I`m not sure how long he stayed with them, but, yes, he was living there. "
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1205/25/ijvm.01.html

We do not know that it was JM who lived there. It could have been one of RC's brothers.

We have zero evidence that JM was in the neighborhood in the morning Isa went missing at all. He was first caught on camera much later in the afternoon. Isa's real uncles were there in the morning as noted by name on the police reports.

People just assumed that the AS neighbor was talking about JM, because in the first week, he was the only "uncle" mentioned.

There is no evidence that anything was "wiped clean."
Click to expand...


Doesn't JM's niece (CM -in the packets) say he lived there and recently moved into an apartment?
 
Ok, guys, is there really enough known to either defend or convict the Celis'...REALLY? I, myself, don't think so.
 
time said:
Doesn't JM's niece (CM -in the packets) say he lived there and recently moved into an apartment?
Click to expand...
I believe you are right Time, do you rememeber where in the doc dump this is found?
 
Taminator said:
So has the baseless condemnation of them, IMO.
Click to expand...

As if on cue...

Anyway, to respond: Baseless condemnation??? Most people who acquaint themselves with the facts about this case - particularly the behavioral facts - come away thinking SC had something to do with his daughter's disappearance, and many also think RC did too.

Some things we base our opinion on include:

  • The 911 call
  • TPD: "Inconsistencies in parents' statements"
  • TPD: Parents still considered suspects/not cleared two months later
  • TPD had to chastisize them for avoiding media (no use-still avoiding it)
  • TPD: "Parents lack a sense of urgency." Same lack of urgency we heard in Sergio's voice on the 911 tape.
  • SC banned from contact with sons by CPS.
  • Lack of any active searches since very early on in the case.
    Cryptic comments by TPD that undermine the parents.

There's a ton more. Maybe others here in the "family did it" camp can add to the list.
 
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