AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #24

[kat77]

Two points on the KVOA report:

http://www.kvoa.com/news/isabel-celis-now-missing-6-months-and-still-no-answers/

"Rebecca Celis says they now have very little contact with the police and their frustration is reaching the breaking point, "Its very frustrating", she said, "it's hard to not know where the investigation is.""

IMO, in this statement and the remainder of these 2 interviews, it seems that the primary concern is knowing the status of TPD's investigation. Isa almost seems secondary.

Also Sergio says "Can we get out there, because she is not here, in the first three days of the investigation of staying here, she's not here, she hasn't been here since the moment she has been gone from this house."

It seems that he's frustrated TPD concentrated on the Celis home at the beginning of the investigation. In any abduction case, wouldn't the first few days be spent collecting evidence from the last known location of the missing person?

 

[SapphireSteel]

, in the first three days of the investigation of staying here, she's not here, she hasn't been here since the moment she has been gone from this house."

Interesting words...

"Hasn't been here" could be interpreted to mean that Isa is deceased.

Also tells me that the first three days investigations were entirely focused on the Celis home.

Sergio has a point though...why hasn't he been arrested?

My guess? The same old story - no body, no prosecution.

:cow:

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

, in the first three days of the investigation of staying here, she's not here, she hasn't been here since the moment she has been gone from this house."

Interesting words...

"Hasn't been here" could be interpreted to mean that Isa is deceased.

Also tells me that the first three days investigations were entirely focused on the Celis home.

Sergio has a point though...why hasn't he been arrested?

My guess? The same old story - no body, no prosecution.

:cow:

I'm sure that D'Andre Lane thought that getting rid of little Bianca Jones' body after he'd beaten the 2-year-old for having a toilet accident would protect him from prosecution, but the Wayne County Prosecutor had Bianca's father arrested and charged him with child abuse and homicide despite the absence of remains. An intelligent jury found Lane guilty on both counts in a case that was primarily based on circumstantial and forensic evidence. The days of "No body. No case." might soon be hinging on extinction.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm sure that D'Andre Lane thought that getting rid of little Bianca Jones' body after he'd beaten the 2-year-old for having a toilet accident would protect him from prosecution, but the Wayne County Prosecutor had Bianca's father arrested anc charged him with child abuse and homicide despite the absence of remains. An intelligent jury found Lane guilty on both counts in a case that was primarily based on circumstantial and forensic evidence. The days of "No body. No case." might soon be hinging on extinction.

God I hope so.

The Arizona DA's office may not yet be onboard with that, especially if some of the forensics are inconclusive. They don't want to be seen wasting tax payers money on anything less than a certainty...politics again.

The Celis complain that the police don't talk to them...when was the last time they picked up the phone themselves, or called in to the station?

I have heard of innocent parents bothering the investigating officers so frequently they have been threatened with restraining orders.

Innocent parents make it their business to call LE every single day, not sit on their butts waiting for LE to call them. I bet Mark Lunsford bugged the hell out of his investigators.

"Rebecca Celis says they now have very little contact with the police and their frustration is reaching the breaking point, "Its very frustrating", she said, "it's hard to not know where the investigation is.""

I would have thought "it's hard not to know where my baby is" would be a more appropriate thing for a grieving mum to say.

The details of the investigation itself often have to be secret. Where does Becky get the idea she needs to know the details, or that LE are answerable to her?

A grieved parent of a baby snatched by the bogeyman is not going to give a flying fart "where the investigation is". They just care that their daughter comes home!

A parent who has some sort of knowledge, however, and is attempting to steer the investigation in a certain direction (away from themselves) is going to get irritated with LE, quickly break down communication with LE, get defensive then offensive, as is happening here.

It occured in Jonbenet's case, Madeleine's case, now the Celis case.

Attack the very people who are the ONLY people trying to find your baby.

Makes no sense at all.

:banghead:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I'm sure that D'Andre Lane thought that getting rid of little Bianca Jones' body after he'd beaten the 2-year-old for having a toilet accident would protect him from prosecution, but the Wayne County Prosecutor had Bianca's father arrested and charged him with child abuse and homicide despite the absence of remains. An intelligent jury found Lane guilty on both counts in a case that was primarily based on circumstantial and forensic evidence. The days of "No body. No case." might soon be hinging on extinction.

I don't think one case proves anything, and it does stand out to me that the one case we have of a no-body prosecution involves a black man. (No, I am not saying he's innocent). Prosecutions have to worry even more now about a jury not convicting, after the Anthony case, even with plenty of evidence

 

[pieper4]

"Can we get out there, because she is not here, in the first three days of the investigation of staying here, she's not here, she hasn't been here since the moment she has been gone from this house."

Sergio speaks very good English overall; whereas Mom stumbles quite a bit. This sentence means something.

I take this to mean "not in Tucson." It's so oddly worded. :/

 

[iSleuth]

God I hope so.

The Arizona DA's office may not yet be onboard with that, especially if some of the forensics are inconclusive. They don't want to be seen wasting tax payers money on anything less than a certainty...politics again.

The Celis complain that the police don't talk to them...when was the last time they picked up the phone themselves, or called in to the station?

I have heard of innocent parents bothering the investigating officers so frequently they have been threatened with restraining orders.

Innocent parents make it their business to call LE every single day, not sit on their butts waiting for LE to call them. I bet Mark Lunsford bugged the hell out of his investigators.

"Rebecca Celis says they now have very little contact with the police and their frustration is reaching the breaking point, "Its very frustrating", she said, "it's hard to not know where the investigation is.""

I would have thought "it's hard not to know where my baby is" would be a more appropriate thing for a grieving mum to say.

The details of the investigation itself often have to be secret. Where does Becky get the idea she needs to know the details, or that LE are answerable to her?

A grieved parent of a baby snatched by the bogeyman is not going to give a flying fart "where the investigation is". They just care that their daughter comes home!

A parent who has some sort of knowledge, however, and is attempting to steer the investigation in a certain direction (away from themselves) is going to get irritated with LE, quickly break down communication with LE, get defensive then offensive, as is happening here.

It occured in Jonbenet's case, Madeleine's case, now the Celis case.

Attack the very people who are the ONLY people trying to find your baby.

Makes no sense at all.

:banghead:

Maybe they are on a lot of anti depressants or something. Maybe that's why there are no tears ( ever) for Isa, no strong pleas to her abductor, or for other parents to protect their kids in AZ. Just more whining and garbled english from the Celis family. I am really glad they moved the ( life size )dolly off the bed though.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Two points on the KVOA report:

http://www.kvoa.com/news/isabel-celis-now-missing-6-months-and-still-no-answers/

"Rebecca Celis says they now have very little contact with the police and their frustration is reaching the breaking point, "Its very frustrating", she said, "it's hard to not know where the investigation is.""

IMO, in this statement and the remainder of these 2 interviews, it seems that the primary concern is knowing the status of TPD's investigation. Isa almost seems secondary.

Also Sergio says "Can we get out there, because she is not here, in the first three days of the investigation of staying here, she's not here, she hasn't been here since the moment she has been gone from this house."

It seems that he's frustrated TPD concentrated on the Celis home at the beginning of the investigation. In any abduction case, wouldn't the first few days be spent collecting evidence from the last known location of the missing person?

I dont think it would take them three days to collect evidence. But the mention of three days is what reminded me of how Mark Lunsford felt about the police only concentrating on his family at first. In those three days and after they were up the Lunsford's butt telling Mark that his daddy had harmed Jessica when Mark knew it wasnt true. Blantantly lying to them and saying they found Jessica's blood on Archie's clothing. A cruel bald face lie perpretrated by LE. They were harassing Ruthie and Archie during that time. And in those most vaulable hours in any case LE was honed in on the Lunsford home while Couey was raping Jessica repeatedly right across the street under LEs nose.

The first 48 or 72 hours is the most critical time in any investigation. Each hour that passes after then lessens the chances the case will be solved.

There was a link put up on this thread once that shows how LE can get tunnel vision in child kidnapping cases when it comes to parents and because they do often time the real perp gets away and the cases remain unsolved.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

God I hope so.

The Arizona DA's office may not yet be onboard with that, especially if some of the forensics are inconclusive. They don't want to be seen wasting tax payers money on anything less than a certainty...politics again.

The Celis complain that the police don't talk to them...when was the last time they picked up the phone themselves, or called in to the station?

I have heard of innocent parents bothering the investigating officers so frequently they have been threatened with restraining orders.

Innocent parents make it their business to call LE every single day, not sit on their butts waiting for LE to call them. I bet Mark Lunsford bugged the hell out of his investigators.

"Rebecca Celis says they now have very little contact with the police and their frustration is reaching the breaking point, "Its very frustrating", she said, "it's hard to not know where the investigation is.""

I would have thought "it's hard not to know where my baby is" would be a more appropriate thing for a grieving mum to say.

The details of the investigation itself often have to be secret. Where does Becky get the idea she needs to know the details, or that LE are answerable to her?

A grieved parent of a baby snatched by the bogeyman is not going to give a flying fart "where the investigation is". They just care that their daughter comes home!

A parent who has some sort of knowledge, however, and is attempting to steer the investigation in a certain direction (away from themselves) is going to get irritated with LE, quickly break down communication with LE, get defensive then offensive, as is happening here.

It occured in Jonbenet's case, Madeleine's case, now the Celis case.

Attack the very people who are the ONLY people trying to find your baby.

Makes no sense at all.

:banghead:

Quickly break down? It has been over a half a year since Isa went missing.:waitasec:

Mark Lunsford didnt have to bug the police. They were there constantly accusing his family member of harming Jessica.

Steer the investigation away? They are wanting TPD to find their daughter and who abducted her. How is that steering the investigation away from them?Are you saying that TPD doesnt know where the Celis' live?

Of course she and Serigio are entitled to know how the investigation is proceeding. They are Isa's closest family members.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think one case proves anything, and it does stand out to me that the one case we have of a no-body prosecution involves a black man. (No, I am not saying he's innocent). Prosecutions have to worry even more now about a jury not convicting, after the Anthony case, even with plenty of evidence

Recently I have seen more DAs than ever before making an arrest without a body and I havent heard of one that didnt get a conviction.

In fact they are doing it lightning fast compared to the years it use to take on missing body cases.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm sure that D'Andre Lane thought that getting rid of little Bianca Jones' body after he'd beaten the 2-year-old for having a toilet accident would protect him from prosecution, but the Wayne County Prosecutor had Bianca's father arrested and charged him with child abuse and homicide despite the absence of remains. An intelligent jury found Lane guilty on both counts in a case that was primarily based on circumstantial and forensic evidence. The days of "No body. No case." might soon be hinging on extinction.

Absolutely.

Look how fast the DA charged Sierra Lamar's murderer and they still havent found her remains. Hans Riser was convicted without a body. Many many cases are going forward now where the victim is never found.

So the AZ. DA cant use that excuse.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Recently I have seen more DAs than ever before making an arrest without a body and I havent heard of one that didnt get a conviction.

In fact they are doing it lightning fast compared to the years it use to take on missing body cases.

Can you give me some examples of cases where someone was convicted of the murder of a child (under 18) without a body? I can only think of Bianca's case.

 

[SapphireSteel]

At this point they admit they have grown very frustrated with the investigation, one that has even cast suspicion over Sergio Celis. "I can't understand at the six month point how they have absolutely nothing, to have nothing, and if it was me, why wouldn't they have me gone already, I'm not afraid to say that",

http://www.kvoa.com/news/isabel-celis-now-missing-6-months-and-still-no-answers/

That begs the question - what is he afraid to say?

The fact he is saying to LE "they have absolutely nothing" is a powerful reminder to me of Gerry McCann when told by LE they thought his daughter Madeleine was dead, and had died that night in their apartment.

If you or I were accused of killing/disapppearing our own child we would say -

"Oh my God are you nuts? Go out and get this guy! You're wasting time and energy questioning me! Please, please help us! Someone, listen to me! I did not do this! My baby has been stolen you @(*&&)"

No, we have Sergio, like the McCann before him (and the Ramsey, via lawyers), whos reaction to being accused is to coldly tell LE -

"you have nothing".

and then proceed to discredit everyone in the investigation, out loud, in a public forum.

:furious:

Truly, cases like these must be LE's worst nightmare. Completely frustrating, thankless and risky to the career besides.

 

[ksprincess]

Can you give me some examples of cases where someone was convicted of the murder of a child (under 18) without a body? I can only think of Bianca's case.

I did think of Aaron Thompson who was convicted or his daughter Aarone's murder. Also I believe Jerice will be convicted of Jhessey's murder. Or for a non-family, I bet Antolin GarciaTorres will eventually be convicted of Sierra Lamar's murderer. However I think for the most part sadly,if someone hides a body well enough nothing ever happens to them.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I did think of Aaron Thompson who was convicted or his daughter Aarone's murder. Also I believe Jerice will be convicted of Jhessey's murder. Or for a non-family, I bet Antolin GarciaTorres will eventually be convicted of Sierra Lamar's murderer. However I think for the most part sadly,if someone hides a body well enough nothing ever happens to them.

If you're black and poor, something happens.

ullhair:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Well, my gut on this is that TPD are certainly still working Isa's case and that they are working it from the angle that there was parental involvement in Isa's disappearance. Hence, the parents are not privy to much of the investigation.

As for SC and RC, what exactly did THEY do to help find their child? Sell bracelets and visit the volunteer center twice? What a load.

I call BS on this and can only hope that LE is putting together the last few pieces they need to make an arrest and hopefully get a confession so that Isa's body can be found. It is frustrating that they haven't been able to make an arrest yet, but just because it takes time to gather everything they need doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.

MOO

There is footage of RC actually saying "the less I do, the better".

Now, no one's doing anything. :dunno:

To quote SC, "they have absolutely nothing".

:furious:

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

Can you give me some examples of cases where someone was convicted of the murder of a child (under 18) without a body? I can only think of Bianca's case.

Murder of Danielle Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

Murder of Danielle Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.azfamily.com/news/9pm-extra/Despite-no-body-child-killers-can-be-convicted-170217686.html

 

[FrayedKnot]

MOO.

Rebecca and Sergio already know exactly what happened to Isa. They know all the details of the crime. That is why they have never once begged to know what happened to their daughter.

What they do NOT know and what is making them antsy now is how the investigation is coming along. Just what do investigators have? How much have they already figured out? Did we (meaning RC and SC) forget something and LE is onto us? They are desperate to know what LE has on them.

MOO is that LE considers them suspects and as such would not share with them any findings linking them to Isa's disappearance. Sadly, without a body it may be only blood, prints, other DNA, etc unless a witness comes forward or Isa's body is found.

It is as if the silence from LE is beginning to sound rather like a TellTale Heart under the floorboards. Maybe it will be their undoing.

 

[ksprincess]

If you're black and poor, something happens.

ullhair:

You are right! When I posted about Aaron Thompson and Jerice I wasn't even thinking about thier race, also both of those were cases of severe physical abuse. I don't think this was the the case with Isabel but that doesn't mean there wasn't some other kind of abuse going on, MOO.