AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - # 9

[nursebeeme]

I respect anyone that doesn't hold the same belief I do.

I do not fault these parents for what they decide to do. I am not........thank God ........sitting here knowing my precious child has being ripped away from me and having to think about I may never get to see her again alive.

What good did it do for them to speak out the first time they did? Did the kidnapper bring her home? No. Is he going to bring her back home alive? No, imo. Were they critisized when they did speak out? Yes. Maybe they saw the backlash on the evening talk shows? Maybe their freinds told them how the internet is buzzing against them even more since they spoke out. Who knows.

Imo

LE wants them to speak to keep the story in the media and generate more tips.

We do not know what tips were brought in the last time they brought attention to Isabel's situation because we don't know the nature of the tips.

It obviously seems important to LE

 

[AnaTeresa]

No, he broke in and killed the Mom, her boyfriend and an older brother.
The dogs hid from him the whole time.
He abducted Dylan and Shasta. He ultimately killed Dylan but brought Shasta back alive.

Shasta was NOT killed, just to be clear. She was taken to a Denny's where she was recognized.
It was AWESOME. :woohoo:

Well, he wasn't bringing her back to the police. He simply still had her in his custody in a public place. Not that I thought you were stating otherwise, but just in case anyone unfamiliar with the case misunderstood "He ultimately killed Dylan but brought Shasta back alive." He probably would have killed her too, had he not been caught.

 

[carole]

:seeya: I am not familiar with these cases, but could you tell me did the "perp" also kill the dogs ?

TIA !

I don't know if there were any dogs, but it didn't matter. Joseph Duncan, a known sex offender, broke into the home and killed the mother, mother's boyfriend, and 13 year old brother. Kidnapped Shasta, 8, and her brother Dylan, 9. Later killed Dylan. An alert waitress called police when she noticed Shasta in her restaurant. If memory serves, Duncan had seen Shasta and decided to kidnap her. He had no relationship to the family.

Shasta was so terrorized from the killing of her family and the weeks of sexual abuse, she did the only thing she could to stay alive - she kept guiet. Duncan was so sure she would not try to run or tell anyone that he had begun taking her our in public.

Joseph E. Duncan III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Prof]

I did a youtube search for church surveillance videos and found many without date stamps. I am certainly not an expert on why or why not they have date and time stamps. My assumption would be that it is important to have them, but maybe there is some reason for not. IDK I am going with the assumption that this video was NOT Saturday night/Sunday morning, either though; I think it might have been the day before or a week before. It could be that the information was a bit confused by the officer. It may not be important for them to correct and expose yet another error. It is simple enough to blame it on the security company, and move on from there.

 

[AnaTeresa]

Right, but it probably isn't a kidnapping in many other cases - probably an equal amount, even if it is originally reported as a kidnapping. I can think of several of those right now. So I think we need to follow the evidence instead of figuring this out based on other cases. JMOO :cow:

My point, and perhaps others who were mentioning kidnappings by strangers, is that it is a narrow view to write off possibilities simply because there were adults and/or dogs in the home, when other cases have shown us it is possible to kidnap someone in those circumstances. Right now in the case, we have no solid evidence that would point to a family member, stranger, or neighbor. So, to write off one possibility because of the presence of others in the house is a bit premature, because as other cases have shown us, it CAN happen. That's the only reason these other kidnapping cases keep being brought up - because people keep bringing up the presence her family and the dogs.

 

[TxLady2]

Plenty of people much older than these girls have frozen up during emergency situations. We can't always predict how someone will react, particularly a young child. Threats alone have easily subdued much older persons.

I think he must have used some kind of weapon and threatened them that he would kill all of them, because it doesn't seem very likely for all of them to freeze up like that and at least one of them not try to make a break for the door. They had to be very frightened, but even frightened kids will usually try to run, they don't just sit still and watch a sister be assaulted and not do anything. But a knife or some other weapon would change things considerably. Just saying.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

No, he broke in and killed the Mom, her boyfriend and an older brother.
The dogs hid from him the whole time.
He abducted Dylan and Shasta. He ultimately killed Dylan but brought Shasta back alive.

Shasta was NOT killed, just to be clear. She was taken to a Denny's where she was recognized.
It was AWESOME. :woohoo:

And one of the dogs was an aggressive Pit Bill that Steve Greone's son owned.. who said he knew a stranger could never get by his dog ...that the perp would be eaten alive.

But of course that is exactly what happened, and the two dogs (both large) whimpered and went into the next room and got under the table and stayed there the entire time that evil bas*ard was destroying that family.

And there are multiple cases where children have been kidnapped by a stranger pedo and the owners had dogs inside or out.

IMO

 

[SmoothOperator]

Just. Wanting to make sure about Presser time.. I'm in Memphis and I believe you guys in Tuscon are 2 hours behind us? Meaning. 1:00 pm there.. so Presser is in an hour I'm assuming.. btw do you guys in Tucson not have the time change in the spring for daylight savings time?
sorry for slightly off topic and ignorant questions...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't know if there were any dogs, but it didn't matter. Joseph Duncan, a known sex offender, broke into the home and killed the mother, mother's boyfriend, and 13 year old brother. Kidnapped Shasta, 8, and her brother Dylan, 9. Later killed Dylan. An alert waitress called police when she noticed Shasta in her restaurant. If memory serves, Duncan had seen Shasta and decided to kidnap her. He had no relationship to the family.

Shasta was so terrorized from the killing of her family and the weeks of sexual abuse, she did the only thing she could to stay alive - she kept guiet. Duncan was so sure she would not try to run or tell anyone that he had begun taking her our in public.

Joseph E. Duncan III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were two large dogs running loose inside the home that night when Duncan invaded the Greone home but you are right..........it didnt matter one iota that they had dogs.

IMO

 

[LisaB]

If the tape truly was from 24 hours after Isabel's disappearance, there could/should have been clues on the tape. Media presence, LE presence, police tape, searchers. People showing up for church Sunday morning (I believe this tape is from the church). I think it's possible there would have been other clues on the tape that should have made them second guess the date. So, that's how they COULD have known, though I am not saying that these things were present. (But you'd think they would be, a block from a missing child's house).

Earlier in this thread I mentioned churchgoers. I am sure they watched the video through at least 8:30, hoping to see Dad and Brother out looking for Isa. Seems funny they did not question the fact that the 7y.o. brother was NOT seen on video going to the store where he asked if they had seen Isa... but I would have thought that the fact this was SUNDAY'S tape would be really obvious when people arrived for Mass. It was probably a HUGE turnout to show support for the parents and to pray for Isabel. BUT... at least in the portion WE saw, there was NO indication of a "police presence" of crime scene tape, or police cars in the lot to clue us in.

I don't think any of us doubted the tape was from the right day until we were TOLD. I assume the same happened to LE.

 

[ehough22]

I believe Joseph Duncan later said that the Groene dogs ran away as soon as they saw his gun (and it's true, my own dogs are scared of guns though they've never seen them fired). For some reason I just find that interesting, and wonder what would have happened if he had showed up with a knife and not a gun.

 

[thefragile7393]

Just. Wanting to make sure about Presser time.. I'm in Memphis and I believe you guys in Tuscon are 2 hours behind us? Meaning. 1:00 pm there.. so Presser is in an hour I'm assuming.. btw do you guys in Tucson not have the time change in the spring for daylight savings time?
sorry for slightly off topic and ignorant questions...

Nope. No time changes. We're on west coast time...off daylight savings time we're an hour ahead normally

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Prof]

presser at 2 @ PM PST (no daylight savings in Arizona mtn time)

 

[utahagen]

AnaTeresa wrote: "Happened in Shasta and Dylan Groene's case - except in that case, the perp killed them. Just as many adults and dogs."

When perps grab kids from their beds and kill parents and dogs as they go, it is horrifying, but it makes "sense": the intruder was killing the witnesses. In the Isabel Celis case, the supposed kidnapper didn't need to hurt any witnesses because it seems at least four people and two dogs slept through the kidnapping. This just doesn't pass the smell test. Yes, children do sometimes get snatched form their beds. However, they almost never are taken without attracting some notice immediately or without leaving some real evidence of abduction behind -- evidence such as family members murdered by the abductor. Elizabeth Smart's sister saw her being led away; several people watched in horror when Polly Klaas was dragged out a window of her house; Jayce Duggard's stepfather witnessed her being kidnapped.

The Isabel Celis story reminds me very much of the Madeleine McCann disappearance: a mysterious intruder overcame dramatic odds to snatch a sleeping child -- not infants, mind you, so they were not that easy to carry -- and spirit them away without distrubing anything, being spotted, or leaving forensic evidence. The police in Portugal just last week said, "It is materially impossible for Madeleine McCann to have been abducted."

Yes, sometimes children are kidnapped from their own beds. However, Isabel was supposedly kidnapped from her bed without her parents, her brothers, the dogs, or the neighbors seeing or hearing her being grabbed, taken out a window, and spirited away. In addition, there seems to be little actual evidence of an intruder (beyond the absence of isabel). Finally, Isabel's parents are not acting anything like Lacey Peterson's mother, Elizabeth Smart's father, Adam Walsh's father, etc. These parents and dozens more have during the last two decades been seen tirelessly searching for their children from the day they disappeared. And where are the Celises? Well, they're not at the Search Command Cnter and they're not on the Today Show, begging the public for help. Perhaps most significantly, the police seem to imply the Celises aren't that closely in touch with law enforcement.

I am not categorically stating that children are never kidnapped from their own beds. I AM saying that, when such is alleged to have happened, there will be evidence of this beyond the parents' assertions: "Isabel was kidnapped...Madeleine was kidnapped...trust us."

 

[Considering]

:lurk:

I don't have a clue why the parents act the way they do and I don't have a clue how I would act if I were in their shoes. I could write how I think I would act, but in the past, I thought I knew how I would act if/when certain things happened and as it turned out that wasn't how I acted at all!

Just a thought but if a person happened to be guilty and wanted to appear innocent, it seems like he/she would want to be on camera in an attempt to show how distraught he/she is by crying, pleading, etc. (i.e., Susan Smith).

 

[MaryAnn]

And one of the dogs was an aggressive Pit Bill that Steve Greone's son owned.. who said he knew a stranger could never get by his dog ...that the perp would be eaten alive.

But of course that is exactly what happened, and the two dogs (both large) whimpered and went into the next room and got under the table and stayed there the entire time that evil bas*ard was destroying that family.

And there are multiple cases where children have been kidnapped by a stranger pedo and the owners had dogs inside or out.

IMO

I am a huge animal lover and always have had Dogs. I don't think you can gaurantee a Dog will attack a perp unless he was actually trained to attack on command. I have heard of stories where untrained Dogs have attacked, but I wouldn't bet my life that my cute mutts would save my life if I were being attacked. They do love to bark though!

 

[Patty G]

Finding keys should be WAY easier since they are where you left them.

A child missing from her bed is not anyplace you might have misplaced her, IMO. I think this is why there was speculation a few days ago that if her family had taken 2 cars to the ballgame so Mom could take Isa home right after the game while Dad stayed to clean up with the boys, there could have been SOME KIND of miscommunication and she COULD somehow have been left behind by BOTH parents, each believing hte other had her with them. If Isa's door was closed, and Becky was asleep when he got home, Sergio might have assumed Isa was ALSO in bed asleep, and sent the boys to bed. In the morning, Becky left for work without checking in on (and risking waking) the kids, assuming Sergio had brought all three home with him.

I know it's been generally agreed that this could not have happened, but it seems like something that COULD happen in a "perfect storm" kind of situation.

Or could just be "wishful thinking" because she might have turned up within hours if that had happened. The parents "neglect" at leaving her behind would look bad, but the end result would be a good one.

BBM - There are times, we just never find our keys! I just used "keys" as an example of a trival misplacement. It was not intended as an example for a missing child.

 

[ehough22]

I don't think any of us doubted the tape was from the wrong day until we were TOLD. I assume the same happened to LE.

I agree with you there, I'm just saying, how COULD they have known? Well they COULD have followed any context clues that were present. IF there were any. It is not impossible imo that they could have discerned the date just by watching the footage closely. I am not suggesting that they should have, but that they could have.

 

[TxLady2]

We are hearing right now about a man who entered a home and bedroom where 3 girls were sleeping. How did he get in without anyone hearing him? We are also hearing that one of the girls was raped. How did he do that and keep the other two quiet? We are also hearing that apparently there was indication something was amiss but he did escape. How did he do that? And who is to say that if he had not been discovered he would not have abducted one of those little girls? jmo

My point is it could be done.

Exactly. It can be done, because it HAS been done. Many times.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I realize that the parents not speaking in public makes it look strange, but that is not always a sign of guilt. I too wish they would speak out... but it IS their perogative not to, if they so desire.

 

[AnaTeresa]

:lurk:

I don't have a clue why the parents act the way they do and I don't have a clue how I would act if I were in their shoes. I could write how I think I would act, but in the past, I thought I knew how I would act if/when certain things happened and as it turned out that wasn't how I acted at all!

Just a thought but if a person happened to be guilty and wanted to appear innocent, it seems like he/she would want to be on camera in an attempt to show how distraught he/she is by crying, pleading, etc. (i.e., Susan Smith).

Exactly. Tori Stafford's mom kept herself in the media, and people ripped her to shreds, sure that she had done it. Susan Smith acted as you "should" and fooled a lot of people. There have been cases where parents spoke to the media convincingly - and killed their kids. There are others where they are innocent. There have been other cases where parents did not speak - and had nothing to do with their child's death. Choosing to speak is not a barometer of guilt.

It is easy to play armchair quarterback and say how you would act in a certain situation. It is easy to say how parents "should" act in these situations. But we've seen a wide variety of responses across many cases because people are different. We handle stress differently. We express our emotions differently. Our gender, age, culture, and region all effect how we react to certain situations. Judging someone else by your own yardstick isn't a good way to determine guilt or proper behavior, in my opinion.